The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

bruschi · 31-01-2018 11:57AM

is it just recency bias or nostalgia, but the quality of top level QB has diminished hugely in the past 5 years or so. You had Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Favre, Warner, McNabb, McNair, who would all in my opinion be far, far better than the next generation of players coming through. (I note some are still playing on that list)

Matt Stafford showed glimpses, but has never convinced me he is at the upper level of the above. Matt Ryan too, MVP year followed by a very average one. Wilson, maybe. Dalton, Flacco, Luck, Tannehill, nah. Even the last few top draft prospects, Mariota, Winston, McCarron, Bridgewater, Bortles etc, none show any major prospects right now of hitting those levels.

Goff had a very good year, so maybe he'll push on. Garopollo looked very good for San Fran. Wentz was on for an MVP season until injury. Deshaun Watson too. Maybe there is a bit of a lull on that middle group and we might now be seeing the next generation picking up the quality slack there.

But its the likes of Cousins, Smith, etc, getting huge contracts but wouldnt be ones I'd be mad to sign up.

Maybe its harsh on the newer crop, or maybe we were spoiled with the older crop, but I just cant see how Cousins is going to be the top paid player at QB. I suppose if Jay Cutler managed, anyone can!

Billy86 · 31-01-2018 12:47PM

I'd say Wilson unquestionably, and would move Matt Ryan up there too as well as including Stafford - he and Wilson (especially this season) often have very little around them. The issue might be if another Brady/Rodgers/Manning is in the makings which is hard to tell, but I think Wentz and Goff are two front runners to go very far, and would be interested to see how Mariota can do in a proper setup because in 2016 I thought he was excellent. Wentz for me looks the most likely to reach Brady/Rodgers - how he plays even reminds me a lot of Rodgers.

All that said, this was a bit of a down year in terms of QB play and I think we are at a bit of a transitional point at the minute in terms of where QBs are in their careers - and are seeing the effects of QBs taken from roughly 2007-2011 not really living up to expectations. I just think some of the guys taken since then can be really special. That may not be Rodgers, Brady or Manning but those guys are all among the very, very, very, very best to ever play the position - Brady for me is the GOAT, Manning probably top 3-5, and I've never seen anyone play the position as well Rodgers does at his best.

I'll probably get laughed out of it for this but from the little I saw of Trubisky he had something that also makes me think he could be a star down the line.

D9Male · 31-01-2018 01:26PM

bruschi wrote: »

is it just recency bias or nostalgia, but the quality of top level QB has diminished hugely in the past 5 years or so. You had Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Favre, Warner, McNabb, McNair, who would all in my opinion be far, far better than the next generation of players coming through. (I note some are still playing on that list)

Matt Stafford showed glimpses, but has never convinced me he is at the upper level of the above. Matt Ryan too, MVP year followed by a very average one. Wilson, maybe. Dalton, Flacco, Luck, Tannehill, nah. Even the last few top draft prospects, Mariota, Winston, McCarron, Bridgewater, Bortles etc, none show any major prospects right now of hitting those levels.

Goff had a very good year, so maybe he'll push on. Garopollo looked very good for San Fran. Wentz was on for an MVP season until injury. Deshaun Watson too. Maybe there is a bit of a lull on that middle group and we might now be seeing the next generation picking up the quality slack there.

But its the likes of Cousins, Smith, etc, getting huge contracts but wouldnt be ones I'd be mad to sign up.

Maybe its harsh on the newer crop, or maybe we were spoiled with the older crop, but I just cant see how Cousins is going to be the top paid player at QB. I suppose if Jay Cutler managed, anyone can!

I think you are being a bit harsh. Matt Ryan was actually the second highest-graded QB in 2017 per PFF ratings. He was 5th per Total QB Rating on ESPN. Wilson has consistently graded high on these metrics down the years. I would have those two down as bona fide Top 6-8 guys. Brady, Brees and Rodgers are obviously class, but Ryan and Wilson are up there with Big Ben and Rivers in the next level. Luck is a doubt, but if he is fit, he is in the mix at this level

Wentz, Watson and Jimmy G are clearly massively exciting prospects. Like you, I would have my doubts about Goff, but he is almost certainly going to be a solid starter for years to come. The jury is out on Mariota and Winston, just like Carr and Cousins. But overall I think there is a good mix of young and old quarterbacks at the top level, albeit nobody can hold a candle to Tommy Touchdown or A-Rod.

the baby bull elephant · 31-01-2018 01:30PM

Stafford hasn't had a 100 yard rusher in 4 years and was sacked the third most in the league with an offensive line that had rarely if ever played with the personnel that had been envisaged at the beginning of the year.

I'm very biased but what he manages to do with what he has, especially over the last few years is ridiculous.

Billy86 · 31-01-2018 01:36PM

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Stafford hasn't had a 100 yard rusher in 4 years and was sacked the third most in the league with an offensive line that had rarely if ever played with the personnel that had been envisaged at the beginning of the year.

I'm very biased but what he manages to do with what he has, especially over the last few years is ridiculous.

I'd agree - did he not have one 100 yard rusher during the season though? I think I remember that being when it was mentioned that "the last time was in 2013..." but the point still completely stands. Tate is a really, really solid WR but he's not really the type to completely take over a game more than being consistently very good... and outside of that Stafford is often operating with very little. He's made a huge leap since Calvin Johnson retired and has a bit of Drew Brees in him, in that sense that he's liable to throw 3 TDs in 7-8 minutes of play in any given game. The likes of Rodgers and Brady can do that too of course, but for whatever reason it's something I've always associated more with Brees.

bruschi · 31-01-2018 01:58PM

yeah I suppose on further reflection I think it is more a case of being spoiled with QBs at the highest level during the 00's. When you have statistical leaders in all areas coming from that period, anything after is going to look like the quality has dropped. The argument was Favre the best ever, then Manning, then Brady, then Rodgers. And then you throw Brees into the mix too. Those alone are some of the best ever to have played the game, and it happened they all intertwined their career in the same time frame. Anything that followed that is always going to be a let down.

It'll be interesting to see though what "QB" battles take on from here. In ten years time when it will be Jimmy G v Wentz v Watson v the aging Ryan/Wilson etc. And Cousins!

j8wk2feszrnpao · 31-01-2018 02:07PM

bruschi wrote: »

yeah I suppose on further reflection I think it is more a case of being spoiled with QBs at the highest level during the 00's. When you have statistical leaders in all areas coming from that period, anything after is going to look like the quality has dropped. The argument was Favre the best ever, then Manning, then Brady, then Rodgers. And then you throw Brees into the mix too. Those alone are some of the best ever to have played the game, and it happened they all intertwined their career in the same time frame. Anything that followed that is always going to be a let down.

It'll be interesting to see though what "QB" battles take on from here. In ten years time when it will be Jimmy G v Wentz v Watson v the aging Ryan/Wilson etc. And Cousins!

Tough to judge any of those players by Brady's standard, especially as he's about to play in his 8th SB and may have his 6th ring :eek:

Manning was one of the greatest as well. Rodgers/Bress have been excellent in their time, with Rodgers still having a few years on his side.

Of the list you mention, currently it's tough to see any of them hitting HOF standard, but Manning is gone and it may be soon when Brady/Bress go. That gives those remaining better shots at making the SB and earning their stature.

boccy23 · 31-01-2018 02:23PM

Trojan wrote: »

Alex Smith being traded to Washington.

Always saw this happening this off season. They could not see Smith getting them over the hump and trust that Mahommes can do that.

bruschi · 31-01-2018 02:24PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Tough to judge any of those players by Brady's standard, especially as he's about to play in his 8th SB and may have his 6th ring :eek:

Manning was one of the greatest as well. Rodgers/Bress have been excellent in their time, with Rodgers still having a few years on his side.

Of the list you mention, currently it's tough to see any of them hitting HOF standard, but Manning is gone and it may be soon when Brady/Bress go. That gives those remaining better shots at making the SB and earning their stature.

yeah exactly. I think the longevity of having only a couple of QB's, particularly from the AFC with what, 15 of 16 superbowls represented by Brady, Manning and Ben, means that it is hard for other QBs to stand out and be recognised. There is a group of older class QBs on the cliff, Brady, Ben, Manning jnr, Brees, Rivers then onto Smith Rodgers and Ryan. Its the next grouping then of Cousins, Stafford, Luck, Dalton, Bradford, Newton, Tanehill who are in that 26-28 bracket now who are "next in line" that I have my doubts about.

brinty · 31-01-2018 02:43PM

Does big ben not desreve being talked about in the company of Brady and old man Manning. Won two superbowls and been pretty consistent year on year but often gets over looked or maybe i'm not reading enough!! Its always Brady, Manning then rogers who get spoken about..

Also notice no love for Dak Prescott. Do people not rate him? I think he needs a big 2018 to show that he can be the franchise QB in Dallas. I think if he can be somewhere between the white hot of 2016 and the cold of 2017 he should be in the talk about Wentz, Goff, Matriota etc.

31-01-2018 02:45PM

brinty wrote: »

Does big ben not desreve being talked about in the company of Brady and old man Manning. Won two superbowls and been pretty consistent year on year but often gets over looked or maybe i'm not reading enough!! Its always Brady, Manning then rogers who get spoken about..

Also notice no love for Dak Prescott. Do people not rate him? I think he needs a big 2018 to show that he can be the franchise QB in Dallas. I think if he can be somewhere between the white hot of 2016 and the cold of 2017 he should be in the talk about Wentz, Goff, Matriota etc.

big ben did not make his team like the other two did if big ben got injured the steelers where not getting the number 1 overall pick. Brees is the one i think deserves more recognition.

dak has only played well with the number 1 o-line and number 1 rb in the league. when zeke is not playing i dont fear him at all

brinty · 31-01-2018 03:03PM

Clementine Scary String wrote: »

big ben did not make his team like the other two did if big ben got injured the steelers where not getting the number 1 overall pick. Brees is the one i think deserves more recognition.

dak has only played well with the number 1 o-line and number 1 rb in the league. when zeke is not playing i dont fear him at all

Fair comment sir and you have a valid point. When our O-line wasn't good this season (missing Tyron Smith) he was in trouble and bedding in a new RT didn't help. Think that speaks more to lack of depth there. Zeke being out didn't help but the receiving corps having a shocking season and not working hard enough to get open or fight for 50/50 balls was unacceptable.

I think Big ben in any other era would've won another couple of superbowls and ghe'd be considered a lot higher. Brees deserves higher recognition too but he's had a lot of tools and should've won another superbowl.

31-01-2018 03:09PM

brinty wrote: »

Fair comment sir and you have a valid point. When our O-line wasn't good this season (missing Tyron Smith) he was in trouble and bedding in a new RT didn't help. Think that speaks more to lack of depth there. Zeke being out didn't help but the receiving corps having a shocking season and not working hard enough to get open or fight for 50/50 balls was unacceptable.

I think Big ben in any other era would've won another couple of superbowls and ghe'd be considered a lot higher. Brees deserves higher recognition too but he's had a lot of tools and should've won another superbowl.

Dak could improve hes only in year 2 but as of now hes not a concern

i think big ben didnt win that first sb anyway it was very much a defence lead team. with regards brees hes been the other way hes always done the job and put up points but the d has generally been awful.

if you put brees in that current steelers team i dont see how anyone would stop them

and for all that i think big ben is the best qb from that class

bruschi · 31-01-2018 03:10PM

brinty wrote: »

Does big ben not desreve being talked about in the company of Brady and old man Manning. Won two superbowls and been pretty consistent year on year but often gets over looked or maybe i'm not reading enough!! Its always Brady, Manning then rogers who get spoken about..

Also notice no love for Dak Prescott. Do people not rate him? I think he needs a big 2018 to show that he can be the franchise QB in Dallas. I think if he can be somewhere between the white hot of 2016 and the cold of 2017 he should be in the talk about Wentz, Goff, Matriota etc.

as the person who started this, I think you'll find I've mentioned Ben a few times now. I dont put him up at the same level as Manning, Brady or Rodgers, but is definitely at the higher end of things and just off that ledge there. I'd also agree with Clementine Scary String that Brees is the one who is most often over looked in evaluation QB standards.

I dont rate Prescott right now. He hasnt shown enough for me to think he will be anything spectacular just yet. But we'll wait and see.

99 Bortles of Beer · 31-01-2018 03:27PM

I would say there's a considerable gap between Brees at #4 and Roethlisberger at #5.

brinty · 31-01-2018 03:32PM

bruschi wrote: »

as the person who started this, I think you'll find I've mentioned Ben a few times now. I dont put him up at the same level as Manning, Brady or Rodgers, but is definitely at the higher end of things and just off that ledge there. I'd also agree with Clementine Scary String that Brees is the one who is most often over looked in evaluation QB standards.

I dont rate Prescott right now. He hasnt shown enough for me to think he will be anything spectacular just yet. But we'll wait and see.

No worrries sir, as i said maybe i'd not read enough opinions or posts on this.

the baby bull elephant · 31-01-2018 03:32PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I'd agree - did he not have one 100 yard rusher during the season though? I think I remember that being when it was mentioned that "the last time was in 2013..." but the point still completely stands. Tate is a really, really solid WR but he's not really the type to completely take over a game more than being consistently very good... and outside of that Stafford is often operating with very little. He's made a huge leap since Calvin Johnson retired and has a bit of Drew Brees in him, in that sense that he's liable to throw 3 TDs in 7-8 minutes of play in any given game. The likes of Rodgers and Brady can do that too of course, but for whatever reason it's something I've always associated more with Brees.

Nope, Abdullah was on track to do it against the Vikings but got injured.

I quite like our pass catchers, there's a number of guys who are good. Marvin Jones had a really good year for example but yeah there's definitely no real number one guy. Certainly I'd say all of them are more reliant on Stafford for production than he is on them as many would have viewed him (probably to an unfair level) with Johnson, the only exception maybe being Tate since his role is generally YAC.

Hazys · 31-01-2018 04:19PM

If Breitbart did Pats hating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc1_Gt0bOX4

jack presley · 31-01-2018 08:07PM

https://twitter.com/stevenspector10/status/958785058319544322

Probably BS as he's known for it.

Billy86 · 31-01-2018 09:02PM

Hazys wrote: »

If Breitbart did Pats hating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc1_Gt0bOX4

I made it to about 45 seconds...

...it's a piss take, right? Right??

Hazys · 31-01-2018 09:38PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I made it to about 45 seconds...

...it's a piss take, right? Right??

I don't think so, i was fascinated by how tin foil hat it is. I just pictured the guy hate watching the Pats every Sunday, freaking out when they win and then just replaying the game over and over to find where they cheated and digging deeper into the conspiracy he dug himself...well produced tho to be fair :pac:

eagle eye · 31-01-2018 10:00PM

jack presley wrote: »

https://twitter.com/stevenspector10/status/958785058319544322

Probably BS as he's known for it.

I'd imagine it is BS, I'm sure his agent is telling him to take his time and look at all the offers. He is going to have loads of them and would be foolish to make a deal with anybody before seeing what everybody has to offer.

tripperman · 01-02-2018 10:23AM

jack presley wrote: »

https://twitter.com/stevenspector10/status/958785058319544322

Probably BS as he's known for it.

If it was true wouldn't it be a rule breach since Cousins is a redskins player and were not in the legal tampering window yet, that's not till late March?

I could see potential interested team's like the jets, browns or cardinals raising this issue

Realt Dearg Sec · 02-02-2018 12:18AM

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/01/nfl-concussion-super-bowl-protocol-football/

This is a link to a video (and an article also) made from footage of every reported concussion in the NFL last year. It's worth watching all the way through. I'm not sure what the NFL should do about the damage that is still being done to its players every weekend, but my feeling is that as viewers we have an obligation to care about this, since the players are so very literally risking or sacrificing their lives and their quality of life for our entertainment. I think we owe it to those players to care about that is being done about this.

Anyway it's a very effective video, bout five minutes long.

99 Bortles of Beer · 02-02-2018 12:30AM

I'd hardly say they're doing it for our entertainment. They're doing it for salaries they couldn't possibly dream of earning anywhere else. If NFL salaries were comparable to regular jobs, then they night reconsider their chosen career.

Realt Dearg Sec · 02-02-2018 01:05AM

99 Bortles of Beer wrote: »

I'd hardly say they're doing it for our entertainment. They're doing it for salaries they couldn't possibly dream of earning anywhere else. If NFL salaries were comparable to regular jobs, then they night reconsider their chosen career.

That's semantics. They wouldn't earn the salary if it wasn't entertaining.

That they earn good money doesn't make the game less dangerous, or its consequences less frightening. Money doesn't make it all ok.

99 Bortles of Beer · 02-02-2018 01:21AM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

That they earn good money doesn't make the game less dangerous, or its consequences less frightening. Money doesn't make it all ok.

Im not saying it makes it okay at all, I'm just saying that while they are earning ludicrous salaries, they will take the risk of concussions.

I haven't heard one realistic rule change that both fans and players would like to help eliminate concussions. And I don't know enough about helmet technology to know what's being done in that area.

Guffy · 02-02-2018 06:56AM

I saw a post recently about a job were you are paid 30k twice a year to climb a pole and change a light bulb. Now this pole is huge. Its a dangerouse job but its well compensated.

Football is a dangerouse job. But that's what it is, a job. The players are now aware of the risks going in. The NFL have introduced measures to make it safer but make no mistake, they are well compensated.

OldMrBrennan83 · 02-02-2018 07:01AM

This post has been deleted.

Realt Dearg Sec · 02-02-2018 01:12PM

Oh! I didn't know that. I thought they were doing it for free. Thanks for clearing that up, now I don't feel any emotional reaction at all. Phew.

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V2

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