Men's rights on Abortion?

Malari · 30-01-2018 04:48PM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

It's not about wanting a child, it is about stepping up when the situation arises and not taking the easy way out.

Stepping up and just becoming a parent even though you never wanted to and took steps to prevent that from happening? Why not take the "easy" way out, as you say? What is so bad about that?

Calling an abortion the easy option is by implication saying that being a parent is hard but is the appropriate option in the case of an unwanted pregnancy...almost as if it's a punishment for being in a state of unwanted pregnancy in the first place!

wexie · 30-01-2018 04:48PM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Do you want to punish men who want to keep the child by having their baby/fetus murdered?

No but that's not the point. If men could carry and deliver the baby then this discussion and legislation would take an entirely different form.

But we can't.

And what it boils down to is that making a woman carry a baby she doesn't want would be an awful lot more traumatic than for a man NOT to have a baby with this particular woman who doesn't want this particular baby.

We're not looking for an ideal solution because there aren't any, we're just looking for the lesser of two evils.

RocketRaccoon · 30-01-2018 04:49PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Strong words for someone who has no interest either way

I have no interest in how the vote goes. I won't be voting.

RocketRaccoon · 30-01-2018 04:49PM

....... wrote: »

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I am male.

....... · 30-01-2018 04:50PM

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RocketRaccoon · 30-01-2018 04:55PM

....... wrote: »

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Trying to convince the mother not to go through with it

Triceratops Ballet · 30-01-2018 04:56PM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

I have no interest in how the vote goes. I won't be voting.

We're not explicitly talking about the vote, we're talking about mens rights in relation to abortion. You said you had no interest in either side of the broader abortion debate (which is widely accepted to be pro life v pro choice) but you refer to abortion as murder, and point out the women you saw "bragging" about abortion number 3, so clearly you do have an opinion either way regardless of the fact that you don't intend to vote. I'm sure there are many people who hold an opinion on the matter who aren't entitled to vote.

....... · 30-01-2018 04:58PM

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RocketRaccoon · 30-01-2018 05:01PM

....... wrote: »

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Someone probably would have noticed her missing, then with work and everything I just didn't have the time needed to do something like that.

This post, honestly :rolleyes:

eviltwin · 30-01-2018 05:03PM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Trying to convince the mother not to go through with it

I can't imagine what that must be like and I'm genuinely sorry you were both not in agreement about what to do but I imagine she made the best decision for her at the time and nothing will convince me that forcing her to have a child she didnt want was the better choice. And calling her a murderer is a low blow too. She doesn't deserve that.

Triceratops Ballet · 30-01-2018 05:05PM

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

Someone probably would have noticed her missing, then with work and everything I just didn't have the time needed to do something like that.

This post, honestly :rolleyes:

look man, this seems like a rough situation, you wanted a baby, she didn't, you tried to convince her, it didn't work, you can't force her to have a baby cos you want one, it's sh1t for everyone.
A court couldn't force her either if she really didn't want to be pregnant.

Adamocovic · 30-01-2018 05:05PM

wexie wrote: »

This happened to a friend of mine in Canada, found out his girlfriend was pregnant, they said down together and spoke about things. Mulled it over for a few weeks and my friend came to terms with being a father (which he had always wanted, just not yet).

Then a few days later got a phonecall from his soon to be ex that she had gone ahead and had an abortion.

It's a tricky situation and I don't think any form of legislation is going to make it any less stressful or upsetting for any of the parties involved.

I can't imagine how tough that must of been. And agree it's a very tricky situation, whole debate is. It's something the father has no control of really, which is never a good feeling but of something of this magnitude it's quite difficult.

The above scenario for me sounds horrible. I know people will argue the mother is going through a stressful period and people wouldn't want to have to inform the father of the planned abortion, especially in situations where the father really wants the child but I personally believe it should be done.

It's a very complex situation where realistically the father of the child has no say in what happens. That's why in my eyes introducing some rights to the father such as the right to know of the decision to abort would be beneficial. Problem being is it's not something that would realistically be enforced.

It really does come down to personal ethics however. Personally if I was to go through something similar I would prefer to know the decision or general direction it would be going in beforehand to come to grips with it rather than have it suddenly dropped on me. I know it doesn't give you more control of the decision but for me it would at least feel that I was more part of the decision, or at least considered beforehand.

wexie · 30-01-2018 05:07PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't imagine what that must be like and I'm genuinely sorry you were both not in agreement about what to do but I imagine she made the best decision for her at the time and nothing will convince me that forcing her to have a child she didnt want was the better choice. And calling her a murderer is a low blow too. She doesn't deserve that.

Sometimes we have to make **** choices that are the right thing to do at the time, doesn't mean it's not a hard choice to make, doesn't mean it's not a painful choice to make, sometimes there are no good choices and all you're left with is to minimize suffering

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 30-01-2018 05:09PM

As for a man having a veto on an abortion or being able to compel a woman to have one, no, just no. Both things do happen, in abusive relationships, but making it a legal right is madness. I've no doubt it can be a horrible, traumatic experience for men though, and don't mean to downplay it.

For opting out of parental rights and responsibilities, it's a difficult one. In principle I agree with it but I just don't see a realistic way for it to be put in place without being wide open to abuse and setting up huge complications down the line. What about the father's extended family (there'd be issues of inheritance, access etc), what if the child needs a transplant, what about people who'll fiddle it and basically get the state to cover the father's financial input while still very much together, what happens if the child tracks down the man later in life, do you prosecute them?

Effects · 30-01-2018 05:15PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

let's say number 4 is on the way and the baby has a cleft lip, you think it could have been worse but no way should you terminate, now Mrs Seamus wants an abortion because of it. Your both married, do you think you should have no right to challenge that decision?
I suppose the reason I'm asking is probably more got to do with couples, should a man as part of an existing relationship have a right.

It's a situation that is decided between the two people in that relationship.
The woman can ultimately go and have the abortion is she chooses, and the man can't stop her. But she has to deal with the fallout of such a decision, quite possibly the breakdown of the relationship.

Malari · 30-01-2018 05:16PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

It really does come down to personal ethics however. Personally if I was to go through something similar I would prefer to know the decision or general direction it would be going in beforehand to come to grips with it rather than have it suddenly dropped on me. I know it doesn't give you more control of the decision but for me it would at least feel that I was more part of the decision, or at least considered beforehand.

Definitely agree with this. It's surprising that more couples don't have the "what if contraception fails..." chat.

Effects · 30-01-2018 05:23PM

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

But a woman can choose to keep it and force a man to pay up.

Yet if the man wanted to keep it and the woman didn't it's tough luck!

Takes 2 to tango.

That's where you need to realise the different physiologies of the the two different sexes. Only a woman can carry a foetus to term. She has the right to her bodily autonomy.

Sesame · 30-01-2018 05:27PM

Malari wrote: »

Definitely agree with this. It's surprising that more couples don't have the "what if contraception fails..." chat.

I remember having that conversation when I was around 24 with my now husband. We agreed if it did happen, I would abort. If it happened after college graduation we would continue with the pregnancy. Seemed sensible at the time.

We never needed to make that choice but its one of those conversations all couple should have at some point, along with how many children we plan to have and the gaps between each.

All part of family planning.

....... · 30-01-2018 05:34PM

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One eyed Jack · 30-01-2018 05:59PM

Men could never be given the right to determine whether or they should be able either to force a woman to have an abortion, or to force her to give birth against her will, because it flies in the face of the concept of individuals human right to self-determination.

It shouldn't need to be pointed out but a man does not become a father unless a child is born, nor does a woman become a mother unless a child is born, and if a child is born, then both the mother and the father have equal responsibilities towards that child, because the issue then isn't the equal rights of men and women, but the rights of the child. Both men and women can abdicate their parental rights, but neither men nor women can abdicate their parental responsibilities towards the child or children.

In introducing legislation to allow either men or women to abdicate their responsibilities towards their children, it would be a backwards step for children's rights, and that's why the idea of a legislation which allows for either or both parents to abdicate their responsibilities towards their children would have very little support, because then the responsibility for those children would fall to the State, and that's never gone well.

For those posters who claim that a father should be allowed to abdicate his responsibilities towards his child, what proposals would they suggest in order that the responsibility for their children is not passed on to everyone else in society? Apparently they don't appear to have given much thought to the fact that it would require everyone else in society to support their child, and given the main reason for some men wanting to abdicate their responsibility towards their children being that they do not want the financial responsibility of maintaining and supporting their children, who then should that obligation fall to? If it falls to the State, then everyone else in society has to fund the care of those children.

I already pay enough in taxes as it is so that the State can provide for the care of people who are unable to care for themselves. I really don't fancy the idea of having to pay more taxes because some men want to abdicate their responsibilities towards their own children, and therefore I would never support such a ridiculous notion which isn't in any way, shape or form whatsoever about gender equality, and just seems to me at least to be a spiteful thought experiment in which ultimately the only people who would lose out are children.

ForestFire · 30-01-2018 05:59PM

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I bit late to this discussion, and while I agree with the above, I think the more important and possible reasonable question is:-

What if the Man does not want to have the child?

Can he opt to abort his child? How do we even know its is his at 12 weeks?
Can he opt out of Support/responsibility if the mother continues without his consent.

No easy answers I guess but interesting questions

....... · 30-01-2018 06:10PM

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ForestFire · 30-01-2018 06:58PM

....... wrote: »

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Thanks, but for all the reasons in the other thread, If the man is not ready to be a Father, Does not have the financial support for a child, Contraceptive failed, was not planned, is homeless...etc.

Should he be allowed to request an abortion and/or no obligations if the mother decides to continue without him? (with 10 week DNA test)

30-01-2018 06:59PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

For those posters who claim that a father should be allowed to abdicate his responsibilities towards his child, what proposals would they suggest in order that the responsibility for their children is not passed on to everyone else in society?

Apparently they don't appear to have given much thought to the fact that it would require everyone else in society to support their child, and given the main reason for some men wanting to abdicate their responsibility towards their children being that they do not want the financial responsibility of maintaining and supporting their children, who then should that obligation fall to? If it falls to the State, then everyone else in society has to fund the care of those children.

I wouldn't be inclined towards the abdicating of responsibilities in most cases, however, I do think there should be more consideration where the sperm has been "acquired" external to the act of sex. There have been cases where the woman has taken the sperm from the inside of a condom, from oral sex, sperm bank etc and then used that sperm to become pregnant. (not the case of a contraceptive failing). There's also the aspect of pregnancy arising from the female 'raping' the man. In those situations, then the male should be able to abdicate his responsibility, and the female take on all the responsibilities herself.

But in cases where the male engaged directly (consciously and with consent) in sex, then I don't believe there should be any abdicating of responsibility allowed for either party.

pilly · 30-01-2018 07:03PM

drunkmonkey wrote:

Another example and it's one why I thought Leo might have stayed silent on his decision is if it's a healthy baby but from an ethnic background where women are less desirable and the woman may be forced to have an abortion, she may tell the doctor she wants rid of it but that pressure is coming from inside the home and the woman feels she has no choice but to confirm. Should a doctor be able to stop it as the only reason for the abortion is because it's a woman. This is a real problem in India and we do have Indian people here.

Now you're simply searching for reasons to vote no really aren't you?

end of the road · 30-01-2018 07:04PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

"What should we do this week girls? Get our nails done? Maybe go for brunch??"
"I have an idea, why don't we all go and get abortions!"

You're making it out to be some sort of spa retreat. Spare me.

why would the poster spare you their experience? it's relevant. reality must always be given even if some don't like it.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

So because 1 person is potentially abusing the system, no one should be allowed access to safe abortions?

This country has a small percentage of career dole claimers who have no intention of ever working.
Do we abolish our social welfare system because of this minute percentage who abuse it, at the expense of those who are genuinely in dire need?

the dole is not really relevant to this discussion as while people abuse it, it is a very necessary system to help and support people.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

[/B]
But what's the alternative? Forcing these people who shouldn't be parents, to be parents? How is that fair on the child? It just punishes the woman because it isn't what she wants, and the only person that suffers is the child!

nobody is being punished. there is no argument to say that not being allowed to abort outside medical reasons is punishment, it's not.

eviltwin wrote: »

And what of it? Do you want to punish people by forcing them to have children they don't want because they were careless or made a mistake? What good is that for anyone

how is it punishing them. are we punishing people by not allowing them to kill children once born? no, of course not.

Delirium wrote: »

and you yourself said not everyone is cut out to be a parent.

Why is it a bad thing that women on reflection decide they may not be up to being a parent and have an abortion?

because they are killing another human being, the developing unborn child.

eviltwin wrote: »

I can't imagine what that must be like and I'm genuinely sorry you were both not in agreement about what to do but I imagine she made the best decision for her at the time and nothing will convince me that forcing her to have a child she didnt want was the better choice. And calling her a murderer is a low blow too. She doesn't deserve that.

how is it a low blow? if the child was born and she killed it that's exactly what she would be called. why should it be different because the child is unborn?

wexie · 30-01-2018 07:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

then I don't believe there should be any abdicating of responsibility allowed for either party.

So you don't believe people should be allowed to give a child up for adoption?
Or only if both parents agree to abdicate responsibility?

ForestFire · 30-01-2018 07:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But in cases where the male engaged directly (consciously and with consent) in sex, then I don't believe there should be any abdicating of responsibility allowed for either party.

But if we are giving Women the right to decide, without question, if they do not want a child before 12 week term, should the Father also have the same rights (not to have child)?

pilly · 30-01-2018 07:07PM

RocketRaccoon wrote:

I would love to know how many women here and in Ireland in general have ever been to one of these clinics in England, I would be confident that nobody from this thread has been in one.

RocketRaccoon wrote:

You haven't seen how much of a joke is made of an abortion over there or how a group of girls can go together, have a laugh and a joke beforehand before going through with the procedure.

What's that got to do with the subject of this Thread?

end of the road · 30-01-2018 07:08PM

pilly wrote: »

Now you're simply searching for reasons to vote no really aren't you?

to be fair, the poster made a fair point, something i didn't think of myself and something that is very real.

Men's rights on Abortion?

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