EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

selfbuilder1 · 18-01-2017 1:42pm

I had my 1.6TDI Golf in for a service a couple of weeks ago and got the update done at the same time. The car is driving the same but my diesel consumption has gone up. I was consistently getting 4.7l/100km for the last 2 years of owning the car. Since the update I am getting in and around 5.0l/100km. I'm going to see if it changes over the next few weeks but I suspect it won't. My advice to anyone who is due for this update is to put it off. I'm disappointed that one of the reasons I bought the car is now affected by the update. I wonder if they can reverse the modification?

Toyotafanboi · 18-01-2017 3:47pm

Was the update done before or after Christmas?

selfbuilder1 · 18-01-2017 3:49pm

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Was the update done before or after Christmas?

Update done the first week in January.

jimgoose · 18-01-2017 3:55pm

selfbuilder1 wrote: »

...The car is driving the same but my diesel consumption has gone up...

Well it would, wouldn't it. The fix is essentially to drop NOx emissions by running lower temperature and pressure - in a turbodiesel, that means less efficient.

Toyotafanboi · 18-01-2017 3:56pm

Just curious would the recent cold snap have affected your MPG's a little. We had a very mild November and December but then we had the cold snap and the sneachta last week. I'very not done the temp stats but there'd be a good difference, seeing as the difference you are experiencing is 3ml of fuel per kilometer which is not a lot.

I'd be interested to see does it come back down over time, or not.

Special Circumstances · 18-01-2017 4:01pm

In a move that may shock many VAGboys... personally I'd give them the benefit of the doubt for a couple of weeks/tanks.

Any software update is possibly (probably imo) accompanied by them resetting the various adaptations so the car will need a while to relearn a few parameters for peak efficiency.

zilog_jones · 18-01-2017 5:11pm

selfbuilder1 wrote: »

I had my 1.6TDI Golf in for a service a couple of weeks ago and got the update done at the same time. The car is driving the same but my diesel consumption has gone up. I was consistently getting 4.7l/100km for the last 2 years of owning the car. Since the update I am getting in and around 5.0l/100km. I'm going to see if it changes over the next few weeks but I suspect it won't. My advice to anyone who is due for this update is to put it off. I'm disappointed that one of the reasons I bought the car is now affected by the update. I wonder if they can reverse the modification?

To be honest I'd expect an increase in fuel economy in winter regardless of changes, and Special Circumstances does make a good point that if the ECU was reset then it can take a while to adjust back to normal.

Are you measuring actual fuel used at the pump, or using the trip computer? The latter can be very inaccurate.

josip · 18-01-2017 5:42pm

zilog_jones wrote: »

To be honest I'd expect an increase in fuel economy in winter regardless of changes, and Special Circumstances does make a good point that if the ECU was reset then it can take a while to adjust back to normal.

Agree and I think this is what's happening here.

zilog_jones wrote: »

Are you measuring actual fuel used at the pump, or using the trip computer? The latter can be very inaccurate.

Doesn't really matter which as long as it's the same way of measuring before and after.
Unless the software update also adjusted the underlying logic for measuring fuel efficiency...
...surely VAG wouldn't consider tweaking that logic to hide any decrease in fuel consumption?

selfbuilder1 · 18-01-2017 6:03pm

I appreciate that the fuel economy takes a dip in cold weather but the consumption is poorer on the same journeys in mild weather when compared to before the modifications. I measure the fuel economy going by the on board display the same way I measured it for the past two years. I am giving it a couple more weeks to see if it improves in case the engine was reset. I have done about 1000km since the modification so it's beginning to look like this is as good as it gets.

mickdw · 18-01-2017 11:13pm

josip wrote: »

Agree and I think this is what's happening here.

Doesn't really matter which as long as it's the same way of measuring before and after.
Unless the software update also adjusted the underlying logic for measuring fuel efficiency...
...surely VAG wouldn't consider tweaking that logic to hide any decrease in fuel consumption?

It is so easy to adjust the mpg displayed via vagcom. Vw could easily have loaded a correction factor into that when doing the update. That would be heaping fraud on top of fraud though so it may not be worth the risk.

Henry Ford III · 19-01-2017 1:24am

selfbuilder1 wrote: »

I appreciate that the fuel economy takes a dip in cold weather but the consumption is poorer on the same journeys in mild weather when compared to before the modifications. I measure the fuel economy going by the on board display the same way I measured it for the past two years. I am giving it a couple more weeks to see if it improves in case the engine was reset. I have done about 1000km since the modification so it's beginning to look like this is as good as it gets.

Conned on day 1 followed by being ridden forever after the magical "fix".

A bit of a Hobson's choice imho.

29-01-2018 1:23pm

Just when you think it couldn’t get any worse for ze German carmakers. Hard not to think of the historical connotations either.

VW investigates 'diesel fume tests on monkeys'

Volkswagen has ordered an immediate inquiry into allegations German carmakers ordered scientific tests in which monkeys and humans were exposed to diesel fumes.

http://news.sky.com/story/vw-investigates-diesel-fume-tests-on-monkeys-11227643

29-01-2018 1:48pm

cisk wrote: »

Just when you think it couldn’t get any worse for ze German carmakers. Hard not to think of the historical connotations either.

VW investigates 'diesel fume tests on monkeys'

http://news.sky.com/story/vw-investigates-diesel-fume-tests-on-monkeys-11227643

Humans get exposed to diesel fumes walking down the street.
Bad form if they used monkeys

Conor20 · 29-01-2018 5:50pm

Just when you think Diesel vehicle manufacturers can't sink any lower to milk profit from diesels despite the clear link between diesel emissions and cancers, this comes out:

German car giants funded diesel fume tests on humans in 2013: "After reports on Friday of US tests on macaque monkeys, politicians in Berlin reacted with horror to news on Monday that tests to examine the health effects of diesel exhaust fumes were also carried out in the western city of Aachen on human test subjects... Acting federal environment minister Barbara Hendricks said later on Monday she was “horrified” by tests she described as “disgusting”. “The fact that an entire industry has apparently tried to conceal brazen and dubious methods of scientific research makes it even more monstrous,” she said. Behind the tests was the European Research Group on Environment and Health in the Transport Sector (EUGT) – a since defunct organisation funded by German car giants Daimler, BMW and Volkswagen.

More than two years after the original Dieselgate scandal – and revelations that German car companies manipulated exhaust software to meet environmental limits – all three car companies rushed to distance themselves from the medical tests they financed."

Farmer Bob · 29-01-2018 6:52pm

Conor20 wrote: »

After reports on Friday of US tests on macaque monkeys, politicians in Berlin reacted with horror to news on Monday that tests to examine the health effects of diesel exhaust fumes were also carried out in the western city of Aachen on human test subjects...

Sick fuc*s. You'd think that someone involved in the testing might have thought:

"Hey lads, the Nazis used to gas people with exhaust fumes from a tank engine before they started using Zyklon B. Hands up if you think this might not be a good idea from a PR point of view."

Seriously, don't Germans learn history in school?

Coincidentally I saw this episode of The Simpsons over the weekend - life imitates art yet again...

colm_mcm · 29-01-2018 10:55pm

I think people are jumping to a lot of conclusions with this.

Farmer Bob · 29-01-2018 11:09pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think people are jumping to a lot of conclusions with this.

Dunno. They're some pretty damning reports...

Cookie_Monster · 29-01-2018 11:21pm

So it's horrific to test these thing on (volunteers) people in controlled conditions but perfectly fine to let millions of cars worldwide belch fumes out into the atmosphere on a continuous basis

I fail to understand the outrage here tbh

colm_mcm · 29-01-2018 11:36pm

Farmer Bob wrote: »

Dunno. They're some pretty damning reports...

Well there aren’t that many facts in the reports. Of course they’re damning, that makes good press, but the fact that VW are the ones getting all the mentions in the media says a lot.

29-01-2018 11:51pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So it's horrific to test these thing on (volunteers) people in controlled conditions but perfectly fine to let millions of cars worldwide belch fumes out into the atmosphere on a continuous basis

I fail to understand the outrage here tbh

Well that’s why they were doing these tests on humans and monkeys in the first place, they wanted to challenge latest health studies that pointed to the health impact of Nox. They didn’t want their Diesel gift horse regulated prematurely.

Farmer Bob · 30-01-2018 12:18am

colm_mcm wrote: »

Well there aren’t that many facts in the reports. Of course they’re damning, that makes good press, but the fact that VW are the ones getting all the mentions in the media says a lot.

VW haven’t denied it. The CEO of VW said the tests were wrong, immoral and repulsive:
https://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/inhalt.vw-konzernchef-zu-abgas-tests-mueller-kuendigt-alle-noetigen-konsequenzen-an.c23d97a4-892f-49bb-8acc-f1646c97d18a.html

The EUGT ("European Research Association for Environment and Health in the Transport Sector") - a lobby initiative funded by VW, Daimler and BMW - had commissioned the study. In addition, there was the suspicion that pollutant tests were reported to have occurred with humans.

...VW Supervisory Board Chairman Hans Dieter Pötsch said: "In the name of the entire Supervisory Board, I dissociate myself with all emphasis of such practices." The events must be "unreservedly and completely cleared up".

But of course people are jumping to conclusions...

colm_mcm · 30-01-2018 12:20am

Do you think that VW micromanaged all the research done? Where do Daimler and BMW come into this?

Tuco88 · 30-01-2018 12:45am

I get the feeling that when VW got caught with the emissions scandal other car manufacturers were...

Burning papers and destroying computer files like the last days of the third reich.

Hoffmans · 30-01-2018 12:48am

Corporations literally getting away with murder since 1800$

Farmer Bob · 30-01-2018 9:59am

colm_mcm wrote: »

Do you think that VW micromanaged all the research done? Where do Daimler and BMW come into this?

Yes, I do think they were responsible. You can’t say they’re not blameworthy because other companies were involved too. VW have past form for this kind of sneaky behaviour, haven’t they?

For the sake of objectivity, I’ll say that Mercedes and BMW have their own emissions testing “issues”, but nothing like the scale on which VW cheated.

What was your point again?

Toyotafanboi · 30-01-2018 10:27am

Farmer Bob wrote: »

Yes, I do think they were responsible. You can’t say they’re not blameworthy because other companies were involved too.

He didn't say that? Until a point that there are further facts though, with 3x companies involved is it not fair to say any potential blame should be apportioned equally 3x ways? Or are you suggesting VW were the ring leader and they coerced Merc and BMW into this?

jimmycrackcorm · 30-01-2018 10:33am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So it's horrific to test these thing on (volunteers) people in controlled conditions but perfectly fine to let millions of cars worldwide belch fumes out into the atmosphere on a continuous basis

I fail to understand the outrage here tbh

In other news, drug trials continue to be used with humans...

Farmer Bob · 30-01-2018 10:34am

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

He didn't say that? Until a point that there are further facts though, with 3x companies involved is it not fair to say any potential blame should be apportioned equally 3x ways? Or are you suggesting VW were the ring leader and they coerced Merc and BMW into this?

Mercedes and BMW were part of this study group, but they don't appear to have had anything to do with this particular fiasco.

Mercedes have said publicly they had no part in the testing on monkeys or humans.

BMW said it did not carry out experiments involving animals and had taken no direct role in the study. "The BMW Group in no way influenced the design or methodology of studies carried out on behalf of the EUGT," the Bavarian automaker said in a statement.

VW have acknowledged that they did. Caught by the balls, so to speak...

Alll the blame falls to VW I'm afraid

josip · 30-01-2018 10:57am

Farmer Bob wrote: »

Mercedes and BMW were part of this study group, but they don't appear to have had anything to do with this particular fiasco.

Mercedes have said publicly they had no part in the testing on monkeys or humans.

BMW said it did not carry out experiments involving animals and had taken no direct role in the study. "The BMW Group in no way influenced the design or methodology of studies carried out on behalf of the EUGT," the Bavarian automaker said in a statement.

VW have acknowledged that they did. Caught by the balls, so to speak...

Alll the blame falls to VW I'm afraid

What source are you using for this Bob?
I can't see anything there that says more blame lies with VW than the other 3.
There's more sh1t on VW's fur than BMW's or Daimler's so they have to be more contrite in the media for any indiscretion from now on.

But surely just because BMW and Daimler come out and say that they knew nothing about this, that you then think only VW are culpable.
You are aware of arm's length operations in business and plausible deniability?

Farmer Bob · 30-01-2018 11:31am

josip wrote: »

What source are you using for this Bob?

Deutsche Welle, among others

http://www.dw.com/en/vw-bmw-and-daimler-denounce-toxic-diesel-fume-tests-on-monkeys/a-42339027

I can't see anything there that says more blame lies with VW than the other 3.

VW have apologised for the tests. The other two have stated that they weren't involved.

There's more sh1t on VW's fur than BMW's or Daimler's so they have to be more contrite in the media for any indiscretion from now on.

VW were only contrite after they were caught, just like last time

You are aware of arm's length operations in business and plausible deniability?

Yeah it's a conspiracy and VW is the whipping boy.

EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

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