EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Truckermal

Thinking of burning my Audi this minute and buying a Mondeo after reading all that..................

vectra

Truckermal wrote: »

Thinking of burning my Audi this minute and buying a Mondeo after reading all that..................

:pac::pac:

LOL

gctest50

If the fix was so easy ( didn't have to re-do the whole engine ) why didn't they make some attempt to clean up the emissions "in the factory" ?

Or maybe someone realised someone someday would cop on to the cheat software, the shares would tumble and there would be plenty money to be made on the way back up

jimgoose

Truckermal wrote: »

Thinking of burning my Audi this minute and buying a Mondeo after reading all that..................

Dummind that - get an old 2.8i Cologne V6. Does exactly what it says on the tin!

BigEejit

EndaHonesty wrote: »

It's relevant to the thread.

Can you drop it ffs. You think its relevant, he does not. Pestering him and dragging the fcuking thread into oblivion just pisses people off.

People are getting the wool pulled over their eyes, whether its by VW Ireland, the EU or the VW garages is what we should be discussing.

I just read here (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news) that after the fix on an Audi that Nox was way up:

Questions over dieselgate fix in Europe
Volkswagen's fix for the emissions scandal hit cars in Europe was discredited by an Italian consumer group which claims vehicles that have undergone the fix to remove the defeat device emit nitrogen oxide (NOx) levels that are 25% above legal limits.
The Italian consumer group Altroconsumo, a member of the European Consumer Organisation (BEUC) tested an Audi Q5 that had been recalled by the VW Group and fitted with a new 'flow transfomer'. Even with the fix on-board, the consumer group's results showed the car to pollute 25 per cent above the EU legal limit.

zilog_jones

BigEejit wrote: »

People are getting the wool pulled over their eyes, whether its by VW Ireland, the EU or the VW garages is what we should be discussing.

I just read here (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news) that after the fix on an Audi that Nox was way up:

25% over the limit is still better than 7-18 times over the limit TBH the current limits are not reasonably achievable without cycle beating to pass the tests - it will take several years for the manufacturers to be able to achieve the Euro6 diesel limits in real-world driving. Or they should just cut their losses and give up on diesel

And to anyone who thinks VW are not liable for cheating at the NEDC tests: Use of "defeat devices" to pass emissions tests are forbidden in the EU: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:171:0001:0016:EN:PDF

Now, whether the EU will have the balls to actually penalise or prosecute VW over this is another thing...

SBPhoto

OSI wrote: »

Mod: I think it's safe to say this thread has run it's course.

Should have left it at that, well and truly run its course

Nonoperational

Please God, yes.

Toyotafanboi

SBPhoto wrote: »

Should have left it at that, well and truly run its course

How can you say that when the debacle worldwide is still unfolding.

Lots of cars still don't have recommended repairs, will the yanks get cash lump sums, will there be any long term percieved side effects of the updates and so forth.

There are lots of topics to be thrashed out. It's a riveting topic and as sarcastic as that sounds, I mean it. One of the worlds largest auto makes caught with their trousers down.

Even if the regular motors posters have had enough of the thread, other more fair weather users will still have questions i'd say.

vex

has anyone with a 1.6 engine had the software update + hardware part installed yet? got a letter a while back saying that the rollout was supposed to start in July, havnt got anything since.

ofcork

They have agreed a deal to compensate dealers in the us now.

noelf

ofcork wrote: »

They have agreed a deal to compensate dealers in the us now.

That's another 1.2 billion dollars thank you Mr. Volkswagen

jimgoose

VW giving the finger to Castlebar District Court:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/volkswagen-representatives-walk-out-of-mayo-court-emissions-case-35025987.html

Arcade_Tryer

jimgoose wrote: »

VW giving the finger to Castlebar District Court:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/volkswagen-representatives-walk-out-of-mayo-court-emissions-case-35025987.html

Incredible sense of entitlement. Interesting to see where it goes now.

Really hoping she gets some kind of payment and sets a precedent here. Of course the usual suspects will roll out the "VW vehicles still in demand and retain same value" but it doesn't matter if VW vehicles have increased in value since the revelation. You simply cannot lie to people like VW did. And they must pay for that.

colm_mcm

Ridiculous court case though. Fair play for sticking it to the man, but a case based on the Irish government possibly reassessing past vrt amounts and emissions based tax where there is no indication that they're intending to do this.

In fact, I could buy a €200 tax car, change the engine entirely to one from a Massey Ferguson, and there is no facility for the new co2 to be reassessed.

maximum12

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ridiculous court case though.

Not so ridiculous. Vw are clearly very worried about and are showing complete disrespect for the court.

I don't own one of these cars but the brand is devalued in my mind. I wouldn't buy a diesel vw after this.

I'm also annoyed that thousands of these sh1t boxes are churning out harmful emissions and damaging public health.

colm_mcm

I don't know how worried VW are, but walking out of court would suggest they're not that bothered

maximum12

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don't know how worried VW are, but walking out of court would suggest they're not that bothered

Seriously, You couldn't be more wrong.

They sent one of the country's most extensive law firms; tried to frustrate the legal process and then effectively refused to recognise the court.

Special Circumstances

colm_mcm wrote: »

In fact, I could buy a €200 tax car, change the engine entirely to one from a Massey Ferguson, and there is no facility for the new co2 to be reassessed.

"Look guys we were told to implement an initiative to pimp diesel, so we did. Did you expect us to make it make sense? As much sense as clean diesel????"

Special Circumstances

Company creates double digit numbers of different defeat devices to fraudulently pass/manipulate emissions tests.

Complains that court case is "unconventional".

Who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour!!!

jimgoose

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don't know how worried VW are, but walking out of court would suggest they're not that bothered

Walking out of court would suggest that they have no defence, and are trying their usual stunt of disrespect and disregard for the jurisdiction. That will never work in the USA, and I entertain a frail hope that this lady will ram her legal fist down their throat and pull up guts. It would be no harm.

Audioslaven

jimgoose wrote: »

Walking out of court would suggest that they have no defence, and are trying their usual stunt of disrespect and disregard for the jurisdiction. That will never work in the USA, and I entertain a frail hope that this lady will ram her legal fist down their throat and pull up guts. It would be no harm.

The yanks take no **** off them and will put manners on them. I can't see the same happening here/EU and applying significant fines on the cheaters... but only time will tell http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/59d57584-737b-11e6-b60a-de4532d5ea35.html?siteedition=intl#axzz4JWEi1FVs

josip

I wasn't aware that Renault were allegedly/apparently so far beyond the diesel NoX average.

http://www.independent.ie/business/renault-may-look-to-kill-off-its-diesel-cars-35028650.html
(Sorry, can't find a reputable source for this)

Is that the real-world average NoX or the claimed average NoX?

In road tests on almost 100 vehicles, ordered by a French commission on diesel emissions, Renault and Nissan cars produced more than eight times the regulatory NOx limit on average, with most of their Euro 6 models closer to 10 times the limit.

Renault engineering chief Gaspar Gascon Abellan told the commission that the NOx-cutting exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) in its top-selling diesel engines had been found to cause serious turbo clogging problems.

Engineers had responded by programming the EGR to shut down outside a narrow range of air intake temperatures, 17-35 degrees Celsius (63-95 degrees Fahrenheit).

While passing regulatory tests carried out near room temperature, the protocol sends NOx emissions sky-high on the road.

Renault, Opel, Fiat and others have said such "defeat devices" are legal because they are designed to protect their engines rather than cheat tests. But the French commission said their technical justifications "remained to be proven".

Special Circumstances

josip wrote: »

I wasn't aware that Renault were allegedly/apparently so far beyond the diesel NoX average.

http://www.independent.ie/business/renault-may-look-to-kill-off-its-diesel-cars-35028650.html
(Sorry, can't find a reputable source for this)

Is that the real-world average NoX or the claimed average NoX?

Real world nox.
The engines are programmed to work at peak "clean dieselness" for specified temperatures or durations completely coincidently corresponding to test temperatures/durations.

If it were non-EU manufacturers at this and the german/french were squeaky clean you can be damn sure there would be some "€13 billion" investigation already trundling through the halls in Brussels.

It could be just coincidence that Apple are rumoured to be working on an autonomous electric car. That's a bit conspiracy theoristy in fairness, but I really do not believe that the EU emissions regulations and testing regimes are there for the good of the EU population - they are there to create an advantage for EU car manufacturers.

mickdw

jimgoose wrote: »

Walking out of court would suggest that they have no defence, and are trying their usual stunt of disrespect and disregard for the jurisdiction. That will never work in the USA, and I entertain a frail hope that this lady will ram her legal fist down their throat and pull up guts. It would be no harm.

Knowing that judge and the recent cases she has handled here over a number of years, I can't see here rolling over and putting up with crap from vw.
If the car owner here can put forward a reasonable argument that she has in some way suffered as a result of fraudulent misrepresentation on behalf of vw, I could very easily see this judge ruling against vw.
As I stated previously, fraudulent misrepresentation can easily result in cancelling of any contract in place between vw and the car owner here. Would be very interesting result.

ABC101

Recent article on the Financial Times last week.... the results of the investigation into Renault Diesel engines were redacted / partially released. Reason being the French Govt own 20% of Renault, so they were not going to commission a report which would seriously hurt their own share holding.

It would appear that the days of Diesel Engines for automobile use are under serious threat due to ever tightening emission rules.

Once they have killed of diesel cars, perhaps petrol will be killed off too.... which will only leave EV left?

Arcade_Tryer

mickdw wrote: »

Knowing that judge and the recent cases she has handled here over a number of years, I can't see here rolling over and putting up with crap from vw.
If the car owner here can put forward a reasonable argument that she has in some way suffered as a result of fraudulent misrepresentation on behalf of vw, I could very easily see this judge ruling against vw.
As I stated previously, fraudulent misrepresentation can easily result in cancelling of any contract in place between vw and the car owner here. Would be very interesting result.

This is an accurate assessment. VW are in the wrong here. Whether they have to pay this woman is the question though. And the precedent it may set.

noelf

The court case is the lead story on Automotive News Europe today .. Very interesting content .. Also covered by Autocar ..

ofcork

Heard something on radio 1 news today about it judge not happy vw wont accept the jurisdiction of the dc.

mickdw

vw attempting to bully the entire Irish legal system.
Some cheek walking out of a court and refusing to recognise it.
Judge is continuing and has requested they present the technical info around the agreed fix for Europe.
I guess that if that technical report allows any connection between the fix and any alteration to the cars performance be it in terms of power or fuel consumption, the woman in this case would have clear ground for compensation. If this had come about for some unforeseen reason, it might be hard to argue against the best available fix however when a fraudulent activity led to the fix, no deviation from original performance could be seen to be acceptable.
The Mayo solicitor has tied up with US solicitor who dealt with vw case there so they will have an angle I feel.