EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

zwind

40 times more than the allowable levels of emissions when the car is not doing emissions test.

how can they detect if your golf is undergoing emissions test.

some clever German engineering.

http://jalopnik.com/epa-orders-volkswagen-to-recall-482-000-diesel-cars-for-1731665972

alias no.9

I doubt they're the only ones. Modern cars are designed to perform in the standardised tests regardless of real world performance be it for CO2, NOx or particulates.

alias no.9

fleex wrote: »

40 times more than the allowable levels of emissions when the car is not doing emissions test.

how can they detect if your golf is undergoing emissions test.

some clever German engineering.

http://jalopnik.com/epa-orders-volkswagen-to-recall-482-000-diesel-cars-for-1731665972

It's a standardised test on a rolling road, it'll be easy enough to identify the various sensor traces. They probably logged the sensor traces on cars being tested and then developed software to recognise patterns in the traces.

Special Circumstances

alias no.9 wrote: »

It's a standardised test on a rolling road, it'll be easy enough to identify the various sensor traces. They probably logged the sensor traces on cars being tested and then developed software to recognise patterns in the traces.

Was it scania were accused of this years ago with trucks? They are all at it. A test that has no reflection of real world driving makes a huge difference to the tax bracket etc that your car sits in. Of course they will fiddle it.

colm_mcm

You can see it in automatic cars where they change up so readily compared to cars years ago.
In the case of Toyota Multimode boxes, the CO2 is lower than on a manual box despite just being an automated version of the same gearbox.
I suspect that gear shift indicators are there for the same reason.

I know that isn't the same as what's described in the OP, but the same idea. There is so much at stake to get a brands collective emissions down. Golfs shedding 1 or 2 g per km could be the difference between giving the likes of the r8 the go-ahead or not.

NIMAN

Next they will be telling us these mpg figures aren't real either !!

Cee-Jay-Cee

NIMAN wrote: »

Next they will be telling us these mpg figures aren't real either !!

No they're real alright...I can get around all week on just €20 of daysul.

colm_mcm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

No they're real alright...I can get around all week on just €20 of daysul.

those figures are pretty impressive to be fair.

fancy pigeon

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

No they're real alright...I can get around all week on just €20 of daysul.

Green diesel? White diesel? A couple of miles a day? A kubota lawnmower?

Roen

Similar article in the NY Times. I wonder how many other manufacturers lost sleep last night.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/09/18/us/politics/ap-us-epa-volkswagen.html?_r=0

ba_barabus

"I have in my hand a piece of paper stating VWs diseasel emissions comply with US Standards. I have returned from Germany with peace for our time"

Is it any surprise that a simulated test would produce real life figures ?

The NEDC is a farce and designed so the motor industry can get past emissions tests but the tests are to become real, tested on actual roads, I read somewhere and manufacturers are "worried" haha, so they should be, diesel is unnecessary for the majority of people who drive 20-40 miles a day, it's the "road tax" that attracts them.

BMW have ambitious plans to scrap diesel by 2020.

MPG figures in most cases are well off. Most people can't reach the claimed figures.

colm_mcm

Tbf, it also favours hybrids and PHEVs

colm_mcm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Tbf, it also favours hybrids and PHEVs

True, I guess though my car is one of few models that can actually get it's claimed emissions ratings, range is another matter

I wouldn't be worried about Co2 and this is where Europe failed miserably by having such an emphasis on Co2 and promoting Diesel as some kind of clean fuel.

If BMW are considering abandoning Diesels for plug in cars, I'd say the writing is on the wall for the rest of the manufacturers too. BMW said it will be too difficult and expensive at that point it would be easier to add a batter and motor.

I think Nissan plan the complete opposite after 2020 they want to have all their fleet electric, in other words they want to skip plug ins for all EV but they don't have plans to stop making petrol or diesel cars yet that I've heard.

Dartz

Welp. That's one way to improve sales for the big domestic manufacturers...

Wibbs

NIMAN wrote: »

Next they will be telling us these mpg figures aren't real either !!

In other news: Water is wet.

mullingar

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/21b8983ffa5d0e4685257dd4006b85e2/dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument



Naughty, Naughty VAG!!!!

Good find, how did you come across this ?

Should it be a surprise though considering people can't get close to the claimed mpg figures ? naturally if you burn more fuel emissions are going to be increased too.

this should make international headlines, you won't see the media report it but you would hear them make sensational headlines if September was the warmest in 10 years , and that could have been "one" day in the month.

Diesel was the greatest con ever, the German Government will completely ignore this because they don't want to create havoc for their car companies, they'll still allow us to be poisoned by diesel exhaust and still say diesel is the best thing to reduce Co bloody 2 !!!

shedweller

Might there be a way to force on this "defeat device"? We could all do with smaller fuel bills!

shedweller

shedweller wrote: »

Might there be a way to force on this "defeat device"? We could all do with smaller fuel bills!

Yes, I believe real driving is to become part of the NEDC test in the E.U rather than a lab test but knowing the E.U, the car companies will probably fight against it and it will be extended to 2020.

pred racer

Wibbs wrote: »

In other news: Water is wet.

Not if VW are doing the test

Some RTE Members here perhaps ???

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0919/728896-volkswagen-pollution-level-control/

Delighted, hope this gets international coverage, fair play to the U.S, companies get away with far less than in the E.U. the VW Group were forced to offer 100K mile warranties on the DSG and Multitronic Auto Box because of a high rate of failures, the Chinese also forced this too. But in the E.U ? no chance !!!

Hope this embarrasses the hell out of the VW Group and hope it costs them dearly !

Now the question is who else will get caught, I'm damn sure it's not just VW.

It's just proving though how hard it is for car makers to meet stricter emissions regulations, though they are far stricter in the U.S particularly California !

Quote

"yielding a potential fine of as much as $18b (over €15b) according to US media reports." End Quote.

They'll get out of that of course !

mickdw

shedweller wrote: »

Might there be a way to force on this "defeat device"? We could all do with smaller fuel bills!

I'm sure you could but it would likely result in a car that had drastically poorer power or drivability.

shedweller

shedweller wrote: »

We could all do with smaller fuel bills!

If I had done all my driving by night rate electricity this year it would have cost me so far to drive 20,600 Kms about 190 euro's , but since a lot of my charging is done by free public charging it's cost me a lot less.

Cookie_Monster

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If I had done all my driving by night rate electricity this year it would have cost me so far to drive 20,600 Kms about 190 euro's , but since a lot of my charging is done by free public charging it's cost me a lot less.

What about the cost of your wasted time waiting on recharge?

Cee-Jay-Cee

fancy pigeon wrote: »

Green diesel? White diesel? A couple of miles a day? A kubota lawnmower?

Yes.

5W30

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What about the cost of your wasted time waiting on recharge?

I heard walking is even cheaper!

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What about the cost of your wasted time waiting on recharge?

10 mins on way home, gets me back with 20% probably takes 20 mins extra in total by the time I get to the charger and back out. I don't drive easy either. You won't see this leaf driver doing 60 kph on the motorway.

I could spend my time worse. I'm never in a rush any more to go anywhere.

I do have an 84 mile commute so the cost savings to me are worth it, absolutely, service once a year or every 30,000 Kms (inspection).

The work Charge point has been installed so for the length I'm still here I won't have to visit a fast charger for some time.

An updated battery coming for January 2016 would mean I wouldn't have to charge, 2018 150-200 miles but anyway, I can wait.

No toxic emissions while on the move in city and town , my leccy comes from gas and up to 40% wind and up to 80% of the energy goes to moving the car and all that electricity consumed at the refinery to produce petrol and diesel is much more efficiently used to move the EV.

I won't go back to petrol or diesel and I'm not saying that because I have an EV , I did my research before I got it.

5W30

Deleted User wrote: »

10 mins on way home, gets me back with 20% probably takes 20 mins extra in total by the time I get to the charger and back out. I don't drive easy either. You won't see this leaf driver doing 60 kph on the motorway.

I could spend my time worse. I'm never in a rush any more to go anywhere.

I do have an 84 mile commute so the cost savings to me are worth it, absolutely, service once a year or every 30,000 Kms (inspection).

The work Charge point has been installed so for the length I'm still here I won't have to visit a fast charger for some time.

An updated battery coming for January 2016 would mean I wouldn't have to charge, 2018 150-200 miles but anyway, I can wait.

No toxic emissions while on the move in city and town , my leccy comes from gas and up to 40% wind and up to 80% of the energy goes to moving the car and all that electricity consumed at the refinery to produce petrol and diesel is much more efficiently used to move the EV.

I won't go back to petrol or diesel and I'm not saying that because I have an EV , I did my research before I got it.

You might be right but IMO EVs (at current generation) defeat the purpose of the car and the freedom it gives. Personally I'd rather hassle free, fast fuel ups than having to worry about charging the car.

Yes it may cost more but it's worth it, again IMO.

By the way at current diesel prices the Leaf if using all my own night rate leccy would have cost about 190 Euro's V 1300 in a 5.1 L/100 Km diesel or about 55 mpg imp. That's excluding maintenance and motor tax savings.

5W30

5W30 wrote: »

You might be right but IMO EVs (at current generation) defeat the purpose of the car and the freedom it gives. Personally I'd rather hassle free, fast fuel ups than having to worry about charging the car.

Yes it may cost more but it's worth it, again IMO.

I don't have to worry about charging it either, not too concerned about a 10 min charge or the 20 extra mins it takes me in total to get in and out.

I take the Diesel on the long trip (over 150 miles, mainly to keep miles off for the lease), I wouldn't have the Leaf if it was our only car where I live. But the EV is doing the most mileage and at 20,600 Kms isn't small mileage in 9 months.

The 160 Km Leaf in 2016 would be the one to get for now I don't know if anyone does more than this regularly but the choice is there. The E-Golf and I3/Zoe.

5W30

5W30 wrote: »

Yes it may cost more but it's worth it, again IMO.

1300 V 190 Euro's worth it for the sake of 10 min charge ? not to me. See I wouldn't have a new car and pay so much more for fuel.

jca

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it any surprise that a simulated test would produce real life figures ?

The NEDC is a farce and designed so the motor industry can get past emissions tests but the tests are to become real, tested on actual roads, I read somewhere and manufacturers are "worried" haha, so they should be, diesel is unnecessary for the majority of people who drive 20-40 miles a day, it's the "road tax" that attracts them.

BMW have ambitious plans to scrap diesel by 2020.

MPG figures in most cases are well off. Most people can't reach the claimed figures.

Their piece of knicker elastic for a timing chain won't be missed by their unfortunate owners.

r3nu4l

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good find, how did you come across this ?

...

this should make international headlines, you won't see the media report it

What? It is all over international media. It was the main headline on the front of the financial times this morning and is on BBC News too...

No surprise here at all. Kia and Hyundai were suspected of this last year by US authorities but nothing was ever proven.

You can be sure plenty of other manufacturers are at it too.

ba_barabus

I'll be honest. I never work out mpg or emissions. Just give me a car that is in its own way good to drive

r3nu4l

r3nu4l wrote: »

What? It is all over international media. It was the main headline on the front of the financial times this morning and is on BBC News too...

No surprise here at all. Kia and Hyundai were suspected of this last year by US authorities but nothing was ever proven.

You can be sure plenty of other manufacturers are at it too.

Of course they're all at it even the U.S car companies.

Only saw it on RTE news Site. Didn't look elsewhere.

alias no.9

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True, I guess though my car is one of few models that can actually get it's claimed emissions ratings, range is another matter

I wouldn't be worried about Co2 and this is where Europe failed miserably by having such an emphasis on Co2 and promoting Diesel as some kind of clean fuel.

If BMW are considering abandoning Diesels for plug in cars, I'd say the writing is on the wall for the rest of the manufacturers too. BMW said it will be too difficult and expensive at that point it would be easier to add a batter and motor.

I think Nissan plan the complete opposite after 2020 they want to have all their fleet electric, in other words they want to skip plug ins for all EV but they don't have plans to stop making petrol or diesel cars yet that I've heard.

What are the emissions when it's running off power from Moneypoint?

jelutong

It could cost VW £11.5b allegedly.

colm_mcm

I'm sort of impressed though.

John T Carroll

alias no.9 wrote: »

I doubt they're the only ones. Modern cars are designed to perform in the standardised tests regardless of real world performance be it for CO2, NOx or particulates.

As you say modern cars are designed to perform to standarised tests but VW are accused of detecting when emission testing is taking place and only switching on all its emission control devices during this time.

"The cars employed a sophisticated software algorithm to detect when the car was undergoing official emissions testing and turn on full emissions controls only on that time."

Seth Brundle

Given the reduced emissions rating, will we see any governments (including our own) looking for the correct values and then completing a VRT re-assessment along with a claim for outstanding motor tax?

Lissavane

John T Carroll wrote: »

As you say modern cars are designed to perform to standarised tests but VW are accused of detecting when emission testing is taking place and only switching on all its emission control devices during this time.

"The cars employed a sophisticated software algorithm to detect when the car was undergoing official emissions testing and turn on full emissions controls only on that time."

It'll be interesting to see if VW were at this in Europe and markets other than the US.

I'd have thought that the NCT might detect this scam, if it did take place in VWs sold in Ireland. But maybe not, if the software detects when it is under test conditions.

theShire

colm_mcm wrote: »

I'm sort of impressed though.

Me too, it took ingenuity to create this 'defeat device'

It's a bit like the toyota turbo for the wrc that got them kicked out.

Totally underhanded but these took some serious engineering minds to create

cerastes

alias no.9 wrote: »

What are the emissions when it's running off power from Moneypoint?

Its got to be a better use of energy and have less emissions, surely? but Id be interested to know a figure on that, suppose it depends on whats producing the electricity.

Lissavane

kbannon wrote: »

Given the reduced emissions rating, will we see any governments (including our own) looking for the correct values and then completing a VRT re-assessment along with a claim for outstanding motor tax?

No. Any penalties would be imposed on the manufacturer. If VW were at this in Europe, it's unlikely that any penalty would be imposed on them, given that Germany effectively owns the robbing, dysfunctional kip that is the EU.

John T Carroll

cerastes wrote: »

Its got to be a better use of energy and have less emissions, surely? but Id be interested to know a figure on that, suppose it depends on whats producing the electricity.

When Monepoint (with pulverised coal fired boilers) was being built, Flue gas "scrubbing" was costed as well but because it would have added to the cost of electricity it was put on the long finger, I think they are scrubbing the gases now after pressure from the EEC but I may be wrong on this. Its like everything else really, we wont do it until forced by legislation, "DPF deletion" on diesel engines and EGR disabling on all types of engines will likewise continue until we are forced to discontinue it but it can all be put down to human nature?.

Re Moneypoint, if memory serves me right, each boiler consumed 118 tons of coal per hour.

challengemaster

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have to worry about charging it either, not too concerned about a 10 min charge or the 20 extra mins it takes me in total to get in and out.

I take the Diesel on the long trip (over 150 miles, mainly to keep miles off for the lease), I wouldn't have the Leaf if it was our only car where I live. But the EV is doing the most mileage and at 20,600 Kms isn't small mileage in 9 months.

The 160 Km Leaf in 2016 would be the one to get for now I don't know if anyone does more than this regularly but the choice is there. The E-Golf and I3/Zoe.

Deleted User wrote: »

1300 V 190 Euro's worth it for the sake of 10 min charge ? not to me. See I wouldn't have a new car and pay so much more for fuel.

Seeing as you're classing charging time per day, why not compare the cost difference at the same level? I bet it doesn't look half as impressive.

20 mins on a commute every working day for a year is ~5800 minutes per year wasted waiting for your car to charge. That's nearly 97 hours. That's not taking into account any weekend driving. Most people have better things to do with their life than spend over 4 days of their life every year charging a car.

Also you're basing figures on "if" they were on your night rate. What was the actual cost? We can all pull figures out of our arse for what things would have cost if....

And those 97 hours charging your car aren't being factored in because they're currently being subsidised, nor would they be on the night rate either. It'd cost everyone a lot less to commute if they were all getting free fuel every day.

There's no doubt it probably is saving you money, but you've got a serious case of rose tinted glasses going on.

alias no.9

alias no.9 wrote: »

What are the emissions when it's running off power from Moneypoint?

Probably a lot less than the emissions in the refinery process of petrol and diesel, and the transportation involved. Then there's all the chemicals used in the process. Then add to the fact the Internal combustion engine is 20-30% efficient V 80-85% for the EV. We have up to 40% energy from wind now and growing. You also have the choice to charge via your own wind turbine or solar PV. Coal accounts for about 15-20% of our energy mix. Except for the last few days which have been pretty calm. So you need a lot more ev batteries to store all the excess wind energy we get rather than export some of it. Wind at night can be used to charge EV batteries. We have plenty of spare capacity at night while all the power stations have to keep burning fuel to be ready for demand.

I don't think my electricity comes from money point anyway, most likely a Gas fired plant with mix of wind.

The EV also needs no oil throughout it's life, no filters, no spark plugs, no glow plugs, belts etc. The battery can be reused and broken down after. Very little lithium goes into the production of batteries so currently it's not worth extracting it but that's because there is not enough batteries to make it worth while yet.

For every tank of petrol and diesel there is enough electricity consumed at the refinery to drive an ev 80-100 miles, this is before transportation of the oil to the refinery - to the garage and this isn't including any other energy mix.

challengemaster

challengemaster wrote: »

Seeing as you're classing charging time per day, why not compare the cost difference at the same level? I bet it doesn't look half as impressive. /QUOTE]

Don't get this ? maybe I'm too tired !

challengemaster wrote: »

20 mins on a commute every working day for a year is ~5800 minutes per year wasted waiting for your car to charge. That's nearly 97 hours. That's not taking into account any weekend driving. Most people have better things to do with their life than spend over 4 days of their life every year charging a car. /QUOTE]

Told you it doesn't bother me, I could go out over lunch if I wanted and it's charged by the time I get me sambo made up and pay for it and eat it but I couldn't be bothered. So I sit in the canteen or do whatever. More wasted time. I'd rather get home an hour earlier but anyway.

For the 20 mins I can reply to boards posts, send a few emails etc what I'd do at home anyway.

Weekend driving doesn't really cost me charging time if I do go somewhere. I can go into town plug in to a standard street charge point and in 2 hrs I get from 25-90% and usually plenty for me to get home .

challengemaster wrote: »

Also you're basing figures on "if" they were on your night rate. What was the actual cost? We can all pull figures out of our arse for what things would have cost if....

190 Euro's to drive 20,500 Kms is as close as you'll get based on my consumption of 18 Kwh/100 Kms. But it's a lot less because of all the free public charging and it is including 15% consumed by the charger which is 85% efficient. This isn't a figure out of my arse.

challengemaster wrote: »

And those 97 hours charging your car aren't being factored in because they're currently being subsidised, nor would they be on the night rate either. It'd cost everyone a lot less to commute if they were all getting free fuel every day.

I work 15 shifts per month and 10 mins charging = 27.5 hrs per year . where did you get 97 ? again I'm tired so my maths could be off.

I bet you watch more tv than this ? how's that any more productive ?

If I stay in my current job using the work charge point means 0 charging for commuting.

The charge points are there, so is the car, no reason anyone that was in the market for a similar cost car couldn't buy an EV be it leaf/Zoe I3 etc.

They won't be free from sometime in 2016. And I pay my taxes too.

challengemaster wrote: »

There's no doubt it probably is saving you money, but you've got a serious case of rose tinted glasses going on.

No rose tinted glasses for me, I see the Leaf as it is for me, that's a practical decent car that's not consuming petrol or diesel and I can put that savings of fuel/maintenance/motor tax into paying the car. And I'm happy to be off petrol and diesel.

The Leaf costs about the same as an average diesel hatch but much better equipped and far cheaper to run and absolutely, 20 mins a day is well worth saving probably 1,700 or more euro's on fuel a year. Excluding maintenance, motor tax savings. + I get free work charging which will save when the charge points are not free from sometime in 2016.

Don't forget that for 2016 the leaf gets more range, the 2018 leaf gets 150-200 miles, Tesla model 3 200 miles, Audi will have an SUV with a claimed 500 Kms. And of course the Model S 90 Kwh has about 275 miles range.

cerastes

I wouldnt mind going the electric route, but finances prevent it, I suppose it hasnt come up, but with so few on the roads, Im suprised they arent allowed use the bus lanes,