The Sub 3 Support Thread

Amirani · 09-01-2018 4:06pm

Bez Bing wrote: »

That would be some jump, out of interest what are your shorter distance PBs currently?
Do you have a training plan in mind?

Best of luck with it

Currently 19:20 for 5k (slightly old though, pre-marathon, and haven't challenged it in a while), which is equivalent to 3:05:09 on VDOT calculator.

So general plan is:

Jan/Feb: Increase the mileage week-by-week until I get to around 50 miles/week. At the same time, do some targeted speed work to get 5k time under 19mins and 10k time down around 40mins.

Mar/Apr/May: 3 month specific training for a half marathon at the end of May. Probably be looking to go sub-1:30 in this.

June: Bit of a recovery month, just going to focus on keeping the running miles at a decent level as well as doing some extra strength and conditioning work. May fit in a holiday.

July/August/Sept/Oct: 4 month specific marathon training. Got a dedicated sub 3hr plan from a friend of mine that's in a running club, so just aiming to be at the right level to follow this by the time July comes around.

Hoping to follow the progress of everyone in here to adapt the plan as I go!

Testosterscone · 09-01-2018 4:33pm

Amirani wrote: »

July/August/Sept/Oct: 4 month specific marathon training. Got a dedicated sub 3hr plan from a friend of mine that's in a running club, so just aiming to be at the right level to follow this by the time July comes around.

Hoping to follow the progress of everyone in here to adapt the plan as I go!

Would you consider joining the club? could be helpful in taking a bit of mental pressure off you for some big sessions. I know personally I find it hard to build myself up to get the best out of every session so tend to jump at running company when I can just for a chance to switch off and share the workload and stress of worrying about paces.

squinn2912 · 10-01-2018 11:09pm

Well guys. Looking like newry marathon won't go ahead this year. Any advice on a marathon to do instead. Fastest course possible of course. Would prefer not to travel. May or June. Thanks

Swashbuckler · 10-01-2018 11:41pm

squinn2912 wrote:

Well guys. Looking like newry marathon won't go ahead this year. Any advice on a marathon to do instead. Fastest course possible of course. Would prefer not to travel. May or June. Thanks

Limerick!

and still ricky villa · 10-01-2018 11:44pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well guys. Looking like newry marathon won't go ahead this year. Any advice on a marathon to do instead. Fastest course possible of course. Would prefer not to travel. May or June. Thanks

Belfast?
I can't recall the elevation but remembered enjoying it a few years back. Granted, it was a week after a car crash and propped up on lots of painkillers

squinn2912 · 13-01-2018 12:00pm

Considering Belfast but it's that month early. You guys gunning for sub3 or a pb what miles are you up to?

and still ricky villa · 13-01-2018 12:06pm

I'm hopeful of sub3 but not staking my year on it like last year. Right now I'm sat in Starbucks looking out at the rain and wondering if 30km in the wind and rain or cinema with the toddler would be better

squinn2912 · 13-01-2018 12:08pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I'm hopeful of sub3 but not staking my year on it like last year. Right now I'm sat in Starbucks looking out at the rain and wondering if 30km in the wind and rain or cinema with the toddler would be better

Go out and do an hour or so and catch the next showing! I did 13 miles this morning with some marathon pace towards the end. If you're on 30k already you're flying

and still ricky villa · 13-01-2018 3:37pm

Done!
That was the kick in the aras I needed. 24km done with the last 11km at marathon HR.
Better than the 0km I was planning

squinn2912 · 13-01-2018 6:38pm

Great work well done!

kerrylad1 · 13-01-2018 6:51pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Considering Belfast but it's that month early. You guys gunning for sub3 or a pb what miles are you up to?

You gona do Limerick instead squinn?I did 18 today,12 slow,5 (supposed to be m.p ) and 1 slow.Was hoping to hit 6:45 for m.p.Only managed 6:50 to 6:58.Was grunting like a pig,the last m.p mile.Lots of work to do,to get back to sub 3 shape.Time to cop on now.

squinn2912 · 14-01-2018 12:10am

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Considering Belfast but it's that month early. You guys gunning for sub3 or a pb what miles are you up to?

You gona do Limerick instead squinn?I did 18 today,12 slow,5 (supposed to be m.p ) and 1 slow.Was hoping to hit 6:45 for m.p.Only managed 6:50 to 6:58.Was grunting like a pig,the last m.p mile.Lots of work to do,to get back to sub 3 shape.Time to cop on now.

Great miles lad!! I'm about 3 weeks behind that type of shape. What are you doing during the week?
In two minds between Derry, limerick, Belfast or cork. That's 4 minds! Belfast isn't a great date and cork meant to be hilly... leaves 2. Can't decide

kerrylad1 · 14-01-2018 12:22am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Great miles lad!! I'm about 3 weeks behind that type of shape. What are you doing during the week?
In two minds between Derry, limerick, Belfast or cork. That's 4 minds! Belfast isn't a great date and cork meant to be hilly... leaves 2. Can't decide

I'm at 68 miles,so far for the week,I will do 4/5 recovery tomorrow,on the treadmill,when my young lad goes for a snooze,baby monitor for company.Do Limerick man,Despite all my cribbing about how hilly they have made it.All my P.b,s are on that course

squinn2912 · 14-01-2018 12:28am

Will def consider it lad bit of a spin but if it's a good course it might be worth it! Great miles I've never crossed 60 pw... thought I was doing well getting 40 in this week!

kerrylad1 · 14-01-2018 1:15am

squinn2912 wrote: »

Will def consider it lad bit of a spin but if it's a good course it might be worth it! Great miles I've never crossed 60 pw... thought I was doing well getting 40 in this week!

Do a few easy miles after work,3/4 times aweek.Like 4 miles a night easy, at 8:30 pace.,Equals an extra 16 miles aweek.If that doesn't suit,do what I do,run on ur lunch break.

Itziger · 14-01-2018 8:53am

squinn2912 wrote: »

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Considering Belfast but it's that month early. You guys gunning for sub3 or a pb what miles are you up to?

You gona do Limerick instead squinn?I did 18 today,12 slow,5 (supposed to be m.p ) and 1 slow.Was hoping to hit 6:45 for m.p.Only managed 6:50 to 6:58.Was grunting like a pig,the last m.p mile.Lots of work to do,to get back to sub 3 shape.Time to cop on now.

Great miles lad!! I'm about 3 weeks behind that type of shape. What are you doing during the week?
In two minds between Derry, limerick, Belfast or cork. That's 4 minds! Belfast isn't a great date and cork meant to be hilly... leaves 2. Can't decide

Cork course couldn't be described as hilly. I'll link to Garmin or Strava later to give you an idea. But Hilly........ No.

squinn2912 · 14-01-2018 9:41am

You must do the big end of your work in the morning time?

I thought I saw something online to that effect Itziger... I'd do something comparable to Dublin if I could

Itziger · 14-01-2018 11:59am

Here you are Squinn.
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1779664205

hot buttered scones · 14-01-2018 1:18pm

Itziger wrote: »

Cork course couldn't be described as hilly. I'll link to Garmin or Strava later to give you an idea. But Hilly........ No.

I wish someone had told my legs that at mile 22 last year! Our perceptions of the course will be a lot different though - one of us got a sub 3 and the other one dragged himself round the 2nd half of the course in the horrors.

Seriously though, it's not hilly (not like Clon anyway). There's a few drags, but they nearly all come in the 2nd half of the course, so they feel worse. It's the weather in Cork which is the main factor I think. It'll either be roasting (for Cork, like) or p1ssing down.

Dublin is yellow/orange. Cork is purple/blue. That big spike in the Cork graph after 5k is just a GPS blip. Scale is in metres and goes from 0 to 80.

squinn2912 · 14-01-2018 7:02pm

Thanks a lot lads I just noticed these posts struggling with cattle all day! Great work would leave a man very tempted to take cork on. Wish I could work out how to use my own Garmin for this stuff!

hot buttered scones · 14-01-2018 7:10pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks a lot lads I just noticed these posts struggling with cattle all day! Great work would leave a man very tempted to take cork on. Wish I could work out how to use my own Garmin for this stuff!

The comparison thing is done using this site:

mygpsfiles

You just download the GPX or TCX file from Garmin Connect or Strava. On Garmin Connect: Open the activity, click on the little cog icon in the corner, then click on "Export to GPX" or "Export to TCX". You can add as many files as you want I think.

kerrylad1 · 14-01-2018 7:11pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks a lot lads I just noticed these posts struggling with cattle all day! Great work would leave a man very tempted to take cork on. Wish I could work out how to use my own Garmin for this stuff!

Did you do,an easy 4 mile jog on ur break.?Only joking.Cork profile (h.b.s.)put up v Dublin profile,looks very tempting, indeed.

squinn2912 · 14-01-2018 11:22pm

Haha no I didn't I considered it (your fault) but thought I'd leave it the inside of my knee is giving a little trouble. None when running but when I bend it it's sore

squinn2912 · 05-02-2018 9:46pm

Well lads this question has probably been discussed before but I have a half marathon on Sunday. I don't think I'm really race fit just yet but I want to give it a go. Any thoughts as to what works best for some kind of mini taper week leading up to the race?

DC. · 05-02-2018 10:22pm

Easy running on Friday then take Saturday off.

squinn2912 · 05-02-2018 10:27pm

DC. wrote: »

Easy running on Friday then take Saturday off.

What about the rest of the week?

squinn2912 · 05-02-2018 10:27pm

DC. wrote: »

Easy running on Friday then take Saturday off.

What about the rest of the week?

DC. · 05-02-2018 10:53pm

Just make it a normal week, if you’re not race fit there’s not much point stressing over it. Might as well use it as a tempo run or a progressive run.

Only taper for your goal race.

05-02-2018 10:55pm

Nothing you do at this point will improve your level of fitness. Taper is about maintaining, not improving. Should be almost all easy running from now until race day. Throw in some sets of strides on one or two days, and maybe a light session 3-4 days out (e.g. 10-15k easy with 3k in the middle at race pace) to keep the legs fresh

squinn2912 · 05-02-2018 11:04pm

I'm more meaning how easy to take it lads I'm not trying to squeeze out improvement at this point

DC. · 05-02-2018 11:10pm

Run how you feel. Don’t worry about speed or anything just keep the body ticking over.

Leave the watch at home & just run.

TFBubendorfer · 06-02-2018 12:46pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

I'm more meaning how easy to take it lads I'm not trying to squeeze out improvement at this point

If you want to race it properly and the result is important to you then take it very easy this week, especially the last 3 days before the race. Basically do a mini-taper, but still do some easy running for maintenance.

On the other hand, if this is first and foremost a training run as part of your build-up to your goal race then keep on training as normal. Maybe take it easy the day before the race but don't compromise your training for your goal race.

squinn2912 · 19-02-2018 5:35pm

Well folks thanks for the advice I meant to report back!
I cut my miles for the week and instead of a tempo did 6 miles alternating hard and easy. I was fighting fit for the race and got a PB of 1:24:04. Strange thing is my watch was measuring both pace and distance wrong for some time now so I've been training much harder than I'd thought. Sent away to be fixed or replaced now and a week on I strained my calf somehow on an easy run.

zulutango · 19-02-2018 5:38pm

Hope that calf strain isn't too bad. I had one that kept me out for four months a while back.

kerrylad1 · 19-02-2018 6:29pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well folks thanks for the advice I meant to report back!
I cut my miles for the week and instead of a tempo did 6 miles alternating hard and easy. I was fighting fit for the race and got a PB of 1:24:04. Strange thing is my watch was measuring both pace and distance wrong for some time now so I've been training much harder than I'd thought. Sent away to be fixed or replaced now and a week on I strained my calf somehow on an easy run.

Ur flying it squinn,get that calf sorted,and sub 3 seems on the card's for you.Cracking time.

squinn2912 · 19-02-2018 7:16pm

kerrylad1 wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well folks thanks for the advice I meant to report back!
I cut my miles for the week and instead of a tempo did 6 miles alternating hard and easy. I was fighting fit for the race and got a PB of 1:24:04. Strange thing is my watch was measuring both pace and distance wrong for some time now so I've been training much harder than I'd thought. Sent away to be fixed or replaced now and a week on I strained my calf somehow on an easy run.

Ur flying it squinn,get that calf sorted,and sub 3 seems on the card's for you.Cracking time.

Thanks pal I'm pleased with it and there's plenty more in me. I'll give it another day or two then hopefully it'll be right. How is your running going?

kerrylad1 · 19-02-2018 8:54pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks pal I'm pleased with it and there's plenty more in me. I'll give it another day or two then hopefully it'll be right. How is your running going?

All going OK at the moment.I'm just repeating what I did for Limerick marathon last year.Lots of easy boring treadmill miles,and every 2nd week,a 20 miler,with lots of m.p miles.Hoping for a sub 3 in Manchester,if that doesn't work out,I will give Limerick a lash aswell.

squinn2912 · 20-02-2018 5:35pm

Ah you're all over that sub 3 great miles for this time of year! Calf a little better today. Currently in Physio waiting room with the fingers crossed. Worst thing about races the take plenty out of you.

OOnegative · 06-03-2018 2:34pm

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

squinn2912 · 06-03-2018 2:47pm

OOnegative wrote: »

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

Looking forward to hearing replies to this one. I do intervals and tempo runs 40 and 20 secs above MP for my speed and the weekend run is usually well below MP. I've tried out running 3 of the final 4 at MP in this programme and have found it's brought me on well. Have started with a training partner as well who is novice but brilliant and we're pushing each other well.

Djoucer · 06-03-2018 2:54pm

Interesting question. Recently read that running MPs is pointless as it doesn't do a whole lot to improve your times. Either run faster or slower as mp is a sort of no man's land.

I've seen some plans that have little if any mp runs.

Personally, I aim to run the MPs a couple of seconds quicker per km. if you can run 6:50, should be able to stretch it to 6:45. It's a nice cushion mentally and allows you to relax a bit.

I find MPs a great confidence boost

Safiri · 06-03-2018 3:33pm

Djoucer wrote: »

Interesting question. Recently read that running MPs is pointless as it doesn't do a whole lot to improve your times. Either run faster or slower as mp is a sort of no man's land.

I've seen some plans that have little if any mp runs.

Personally, I aim to run the MPs a couple of seconds quicker per km. if you can run 6:50, should be able to stretch it to 6:45. It's a nice cushion mentally and allows you to relax a bit.

I find MPs a great confidence boost

It's not that it's pointless, it's still some good quality high-end aerobic running. It's just that it varies so much in intensity from person to person that that being around it around it can be a strong aerobic stimulus for some and not so much for others. Think how easy it felt to run huge distances at marathon pace when you started compared to down the road. That's because the relative intensity got higher as you got faster and moved closer towards your aerobic threshold.

Last year, I done a good few aerobic tempo workouts which would be quicker than MP(around 2 hour pace) and felt I got a lot of strength from them, they generally consisted of 40-60mins of running at that highend aerobic pace. Felt they really brought me on even compared to longer MP runs I done in the past and I felt the recovery was much better balanced as well compared to running 13-15-18.5 miles at MP. I got that workout in mid-week and although my my long run was always just easy, my times and paces were dropping hugely. Having that midweek high-end aerobic workout midweek now opens the door to building some fartlek type workouts gradually into the long run where speed varies from faster than MP to slower recovery periods, it will keep the intensity moderate for these long runs and won't be as overly specific and intensive and one paced as straight MP work but it should help with feeling comfortable at the slower pace on raceday. I hope anyway.

Running straight up Long marathon paced runs at 10 seconds faster than MP is asking for trouble for most mildly-endurance challenge people like ourselves(no offense to us:pac:) but most won't be strong enough yet to handle those big specific workouts.

Tons of people will disagree with me on this but switching out those huge marathon pace workouts on long runs with more midweek mileage and a shorter aerobic tempo workout would do wonders in my opinion.

squinn2912 · 06-03-2018 4:23pm

I'm sorry those last two posts have me confused. Will you dumb it down a bit for me. What do you suggest doing? From what you're saying I think you're suggesting interval work or short tempos. Can you give an example of how your workouts would fit into a training week please?

OOnegative · 06-03-2018 4:42pm

Djoucer wrote: »

Interesting question. Recently read that running MPs is pointless as it doesn't do a whole lot to improve your times. Either run faster or slower as mp is a sort of no man's land.

I've seen some plans that have little if any mp runs.

Personally, I aim to run the MPs a couple of seconds quicker per km. if you can run 6:50, should be able to stretch it to 6:45. It's a nice cushion mentally and allows you to relax a bit.

I find MPs a great confidence boost

I get you on the confidence boost as the friend i'm asking for lacks speed endurance somewhat when it comes to anything above 10 miles, i know running miles in training at sub 3 effort will not guarantee a sub 3 result but like you i'd like to think running them at few seconds quicker than sub 3 should give you some sort of cushion come race day.

Safiri · 06-03-2018 4:54pm

OOnegative wrote: »

I get you on the confidence boost as the friend i'm asking for lacks speed endurance somewhat when it comes to anything above 10 miles, i know running miles in training at sub 3 effort will not guarantee a sub 3 result but like you i'd like to think running them at few seconds quicker than sub 3 should give you some sort of cushion come race day.

Chasing goal pace is never a great idea, the pace should drop as training progresses and not by starting off at a higher pace and hoping it gets easier.

That's especially true if he has lack of endurance and the gap between goal pace and current pace is bigger. Means he's already good at burning lactate and not so much at burning fat. My advice to him would be to start out at current MP and see how far it comes down, if he's already got the wheels, some work on endurance might bring it down fairly quick if the mileage is good but overreaching from the start could cause problems(early and low peak due to training something he's already strong at for an event where his weakness needs to be the strongest asset)

OOnegative · 06-03-2018 5:16pm

Safiri wrote: »

Chasing goal pace is never a great idea, the pace should drop as training progresses and not by starting off at a higher pace and hoping it gets easier.

That's especially true if he has lack of endurance and the gap between goal pace and current pace is bigger. Means he's already good at burning lactate and not so much at burning fat. My advice to him would be to start out at current MP and see how far it comes down, if he's already got the wheels, some work on endurance might bring it down fairly quick if the mileage is good but overreaching from the start could cause problems(early and low peak due to training something he's already strong at for an event where his weakness needs to be the strongest asset)

Cheers, I think he has the wheels already so some work endurance wise should benefit him. He’s not beginning marathon training till mid June so has plenty of time to make gains. Thanks for the advice.

PaulieYifter · 07-03-2018 12:22am

The paces I hit in training are usually a bit slower than what I race - sessions that call for 10k pace I'm usually a bit slower, same for half marathon pace and same for marathon pace. I'm a bit cautious though and prefer to undercook rather than overcook.

I think its more important to be in and around what's called for - some days marathon pace feels a lot easier than other days. Some days I'm convinced the Garmin is robbing me blind!

Alternating type sessions will have mixed paces and I find it's more important to speed up and slow down in these roughly speaking without nailing the pace to the second - its all about training the relevant fuel systems.

Hoping for less of a fade is not an approach that's worked for me - my top 3 marathon times have been 2 negative splits and a 4 second positive split - I want to be going into the last 5k knowing there's some fuel in the tank to empty.

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 5:29pm

OOnegative wrote: »

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

I would say it depends on how you run MP miles.

If you are doing P and D style long runs with half and Half (easy first then MP miles) or a shorter M tempo (like 8-10 miles) I would say yes they would leave you a bit short simply because they don't replicate the race. MP should feel controlled the first half of your marathon so realistically a 10 mile @ MP won't be a hugely taxing effort aerobic wise (there is the argument of cumulative fatigue but for me this would have more relevance to muscular fatigue more than aerobic development). I think this is one of the big differences called out between the East African approach vs the Western approach in many cases.

If you are doing it as part of a big workout (Magness, Daniels etc) that it is probably fine as you are replicating fatigue before you hit pace in the latter stages.

The other option is higher mileage sub marathon paced runs (i.e progression or steady runs) these can actually have more of a relevance than exact marathon pacing for more specific sessions.

squinn2912 · 07-03-2018 8:33pm

Testosterscone wrote: »

OOnegative wrote: »

What is the consensus on MP miles in training? Is running MP miles at 6.50 leaving you to tight to the sub 3 line given many do fade in the 2nd half? Or is running MP miles in training at 6.40/45 a better option to get the body more use to the faster pace and hope for a less of a fade in the 2nd half after training at a faster level? Hope that makes sense.

I would say it depends on how you run MP miles.

If you are doing P and D style long runs with half and Half (easy first then MP miles) or a shorter M tempo (like 8-10 miles) I would say yes they would leave you a bit short simply because they don't replicate the race. MP should feel controlled the first half of your marathon so realistically a 10 mile @ MP won't be a hugely taxing effort aerobic wise (there is the argument of cumulative fatigue but for me this would have more relevance to muscular fatigue more than aerobic development). I think this is one of the big differences called out between the East African approach vs the Western approach in many cases.

If you are doing it as part of a big workout (Magness, Daniels etc) that it is probably fine as you are replicating fatigue before you hit pace in the latter stages.

The other option is higher mileage sub marathon paced runs (i.e progression or steady runs) these can actually have more of a relevance than exact marathon pacing for more specific sessions.

That’s a brilliant post. Another thing I often consider. Are you better running a very similar structure from week to week or changing it up regularly?

Testosterscone · 07-03-2018 8:52pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

That’s a brilliant post. Another thing I often consider. Are you better running a very similar structure from week to week or changing it up regularly?

Doesn't have to fit a 7 day week. Many athletes extend a mesocycle out to 10-14 days. Depends on the athlete some might need more recovery between sessions so might do 2 sessions and a long run in 10 days others may recover quicker and fit the 7 day format. The 7 day format just became the norm because people generally had enough time for a long run at weekends without work so it fit naturally.

To give you an example I have on athlete off top of my head that I am currently running training over a two week cycle

Week 1 - 2 sessions plus easy to moderate long run (Tues/Fri/Sun)
Week 2 - 1 Session plus one Big Long run session (Wed/Sun)

This seems to be the sweet spot for the athlete who has a background of a few injuries in previous marathon cycles

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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