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The Sub 3 Support Thread

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  • kerrylad1 wrote: »
    An auld lad who was 2:40ish in the 80,s gave me a bit of advise,after I blew up going for sub 3:15 a few years ago.Told him,I followed some plan of a book.Ditch the book he said.Stop doing all those,5K,10K repeats.Your training for a marathon.Do loads and loads of MP miles and long slow runs.Do 5K and 10K repeats,whenever you decide to do a 5K/10K race.Someone said a few posts back,they know someone,who does 20 with 16 at MP twice in the cycle.I do the same,and so far it has worked out.

    Sounds like a good plan




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Sounds like a good plan
    How's training going squinn and have you a marathon lined up?




  • It should be pointed out that Hanons coaching services (Luke Humphrey) who contrived the 16m long run plan have a full bread and butter marathon plan with 20 mile long runs etc. Peaks at 80 odd MPW. Where P&D 55-70 is a sub 3 plan this one is a step up. 2 meaty midweek sessions and a long run often with MP sections for a 3 session week.

    It should also go without saying that the Elite Hansons distance project of Brian Sell, Desi Davila, Bobby Curtis, Mike Morgan, Sage Canaday and all the myriad of others never followed the 16 mile approach either, I sometimes think that point is lost.

    The elite group of course ran more than 16 miles but the methodology is the same. The long run distance was de-emphasized in their training of Brian Sell, Desi and Sage. The mileage was spread more across the week and the long run was limited because Humphrey and the hansons didn't believe the mid-week mileage base was sufficient enough to support and get benefits from the longer long run. They also support the idea of only going 2 hours for a long run and this is fairly consistent across how the plan is interpreted and backed up by the books. At least compared to other generic plans.

    Hansons athletes don't run the 24+ you see a lot of athletes who run 100mpw+ run. The long run is emphasised across the board and made to fit ability level based on the methodology.

    Humprey was a serious athlete himself and an exercise physiologist who understands these principles and put them into action in the book to suit ability levels. Just because Brian Sell(a 2:10 marathon runner) runs 22 on a Sunday doesn't mean everyone else should. If Eliud Kipchoge or Moses Mosop does a 29 miler in base; should everyone else going for sub-3 do a 29 mile run despite them being 57 minutes faster over the marathon distance and running 130 miles in the week?

    You have to look past the numbers to see the methodology in play in plans. You can't look at Brian Sell and say that's what a sub-3 runner should do; these guys are aerobic freaks with huge powers of recovery compared to a 3 hour runner. Humprey understood this and tailored the plans to ability and strength of the base of runners.

    The 20 mile run is steeped in running folklore for the heady days of the 70's but that does not mean it's the only and right approach for everyone going by what we know now. People have to open their mind up to the possibility of other approaches and what they bring to the table rather than focusing on one facet of information rather than how it fits

    I personally wouldn't use the hanson plan but I think people get stuck on the long run so much that they miss the woods for the trees.




  • kerrylad1 wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Sounds like a good plan
    How's training going squinn and have you a marathon lined up?

    Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?
    Pity,u were in great form and all.Going good here now.Had a bit of a **** week,last week.Life just got in the way.was gona pull out of Manchester.Another boards runner,p32,text me to go for a run,which thankfully I did.I got back in mode then.I've a good few 20 milers with 13 to 16 MP under my belt allready.I'm aiming for 20 with 16 at 6:40/6:45 this Sunday.If I get that then I'm gona go for sub 3 in Manchester.If I feel like I'm gona blow up during Manchester,I will ease up and save myself for Limerick marathon 4 week's later.


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  • kerrylad1 wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Bit of a disaster lad my calf still hasn’t cleared up so I’m only back very gently running since Friday. Seeing Physio Tuesday and hoping to be back to it then. How about you?
    Pity,u were in great form and all.Going good here now.Had a bit of a **** week,last week.Life just got in the way.was gona pull out of Manchester.Another boards runner,p32,text me to go for a run,which thankfully I did.I got back in mode then.I've a good few 20 milers with 13 to 16 MP under my belt allready.I'm aiming for 20 with 16 at 6:40/6:45 this Sunday.If I get that then I'm gona go for sub 3 in Manchester.If I feel like I'm gona blow up during Manchester,I will ease up and save myself for Limerick marathon 4 week's later.

    Ah I know but what do you do? I’ll need to be careful going back up in miles now.
    Do you really need todo as much as that tofeel you’ve got a sub3 in you?




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Ah I know but what do you do? I’ll need to be careful going back up in miles now.
    Do you really need todo as much as that tofeel you’ve got a sub3 in you?
    For me yes.For others,it's too much MP,and not enough of the short speed work. I just tried one of them plans,from a book years ago and blew up big time.It nearly put me off Marathon running to be honest.




  • Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?
    Yes.This week I will hope to do 50/55 miles before that MP session Sunday.All handy at 7:45 to 8min pace.I'm a bit worried about the sub 3 this time,since I did hardly nothing,one of the weeks,of my 12 week plan.Thursday week then,I will do a 5K timetrial.That will be the only speedwork of the 12 week plan.I think I used to do a 10K timetrial every 2nd week,a few years back,but I've become soft as I've gotten older.




  • Safiri wrote: »
    The elite group of course ran more than 16 miles but the methodology is the same. The long run distance was de-emphasized in their training of Brian Sell, Desi and Sage. The mileage was spread more across the week and the long run was limited because Humphrey and the hansons didn't believe the mid-week mileage base was sufficient enough to support and get benefits from the longer long run. They also support the idea of only going 2 hours for a long run and this is fairly consistent across how the plan is interpreted and backed up by the books. At least compared to other generic plans.

    Hansons athletes don't run the 24+ you see a lot of athletes who run 100mpw+ run. The long run is emphasised across the board and made to fit ability level based on the methodology.

    Humprey was a serious athlete himself and an exercise physiologist who understands these principles and put them into action in the book to suit ability levels. Just because Brian Sell(a 2:10 marathon runner) runs 22 on a Sunday doesn't mean everyone else should. If Eliud Kipchoge or Moses Mosop does a 29 miler in base; should everyone else going for sub-3 do a 29 mile run despite them being 57 minutes faster over the marathon distance and running 130 miles in the week?

    You have to look past the numbers to see the methodology in play in plans. You can't look at Brian Sell and say that's what a sub-3 runner should do; these guys are aerobic freaks with huge powers of recovery compared to a 3 hour runner. Humprey understood this and tailored the plans to ability and strength of the base of runners.

    The 20 mile run is steeped in running folklore for the heady days of the 70's but that does not mean it's the only and right approach for everyone going by what we know now. People have to open their mind up to the possibility of other approaches and what they bring to the table rather than focusing on one facet of information rather than how it fits

    I personally wouldn't use the hanson plan but I think people get stuck on the long run so much that they miss the woods for the trees.

    I realise all of this, was just letting others know a bit more about Hansons coaching, in general, just in case they werent aware.

    Not criticizing the 16 mile plan, ive never followed it so have no insight there.

    As you say, many ways to skin a cat.


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  • I realise all of this, was just letting others know a bit more about Hansons coaching, in general, just in case they werent aware.

    Not criticizing the 16 mile plan, ive never followed it so have no insight there.

    As you say, many ways to skin a cat.

    Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your post. Apoligies.




  • Safiri wrote: »
    Ah fair enough, I misinterpreted your post. Apoligies.

    None required man, good to see you back;)




  • kerrylad1 wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Aw whatever works for you! So are you miles all week low pace then mp miles at the weekend?
    Yes.This week I will hope to do 50/55 miles before that MP session Sunday.All handy at 7:45 to 8min pace.I'm a bit worried about the sub 3 this time,since I did hardly nothing,one of the weeks,of my 12 week plan.Thursday week then,I will do a 5K timetrial.That will be the only speedwork of the 12 week plan.I think I used to do a 10K timetrial every 2nd week,a few years back,but I've become soft as I've gotten older.

    Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice
    Squinn,if it's sore after 5 easy miles,you will have to just rest.If you end up with a full blown tear,you could be out for months.With the progress you have made in the last few months thats the last thing you need.




  • kerrylad1 wrote: »
    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Nothing soft about you! My good weeks contain 1-2 speed sessions and sometimes I’ll tag on 3-5 miles around mp during my long run. I’m injured now but the programme didn’t do it so it’s really annoying. 5 easy yesterday and the calf it shouting today despite being like a polar bear last night in ice
    Squinn,if it's sore after 5 easy miles,you will have to just rest.If you end up with a full blown tear,you could be out for months.With the progress you have made in the last few months thats the last thing you need.

    You’re 100% right. My Physio told me to run last week to 75% but I know I’m not able to do that. I’m seeing him today again and if I leave it until around the weekend I should be closer by then. Hateful feeling all your fitness vanish!




  • Enduro wrote: »
    Something here has been nagging at me. I

    Hoping for "less of a fade" sounds like a terrible approach to my ears. It sounds like one step beyond "Fail to prepare : prepare to fail", more like "Prepare to fail : failure is inevitable".

    The hope/plan should be steady even paced running at worst I would have thought. A competitive athlete would surely plan to have enough in the tank to negative split / race the finish.

    I wasn’t ‘hoping’ for less of a fade, I was asking the best way to counteract a fade. Unfortunately not all of us are as talented and naturally gifted when it comes to running as yourself. My question was a bit all over the place in truth, I got the answer to it Sunday afternoon in any sense.




  • OOnegative wrote: »
    I wasn’t ‘hoping’ for less of a fade, I was asking the best way to counteract a fade. Unfortunately not all of us are as talented and naturally gifted when it comes to running as yourself. My question was a bit all over the place in truth, I got the answer to it Sunday afternoon in any sense.

    Fair enough. My apologies if I was misinterpreting. It's not uncommon at all to hear of people planning to go at hard and then hang on for the finish. The vast majority of ultrarunners probably do.

    As to how to counteract fade. I'd say self knowledge and discipline are the keys.

    Self knowledge being the ability to "feel" out the correct pace for the marathon on the day, and also knowing your realistic optimal achievable target pace. (For my first marathon I figured out my target pace by judging my ability against my training partners and their marathon PBs. I had no idea what my actual speed was as I had never measured it... there's more than one way to skin that cat)

    Discipline is obvious... holding that too slow and easy pace for the first half (or longer), whilst people cruise away from you. In fairness, I think most people on this thread have the discipline to follow a target pace to hit a target time.




  • Enduro wrote: »
    Fair enough. My apologies if I was misinterpreting. It's not uncommon at all to hear of people planning to go at hard and then hang on for the finish. The vast majority of ultrarunners probably do.

    As to how to counteract fade. I'd say self knowledge and discipline are the keys.

    Self knowledge being the ability to "feel" out the correct pace for the marathon on the day, and also knowing your realistic optimal achievable target pace. (For my first marathon I figured out my target pace by judging my ability against my training partners and their marathon PBs. I had no idea what my actual speed was as I had never measured it... there's more than one way to skin that cat)

    Discipline is obvious... holding that too slow and easy pace for the first half (or longer), whilst people cruise away from you. In fairness, I think most people on this thread have the discipline to follow a target pace to hit a target time.

    You ran sub 3 in your first marathon, no? What would you advise someone chasing there first sub 3 off the knowledge you have?

    Edit: I appreciate we are all different when it comes to training.




  • Not that I’m any big shakes but for my first sub3 I’d spent most of the programme healing niggles caused by a glute that was weak. I got my miles in and some mp miles but little more than that. On the day I ran a 1:32 first half and gradually clawed it back and cane in a minute under.
    I’m saying this not because I’d go for it again like that but to illustrate that even in unlikely circumstances it can happen for you. I got it that time because I didn’t give in, I backed myself and I didn’t listen to those who told me all I was doing wrong. Then I ran with a bit of anger.
    Back yourself, train well and on race day be smart. Go and get it.




  • I had a calf injury that stopped me running from Christmas until the end of February so had ruled out any attempt at sub 3 in Rotterdam and had considered maybe just running Rotterdam as a long run and trying again at Limerick in a few weeks. However, I managed to unexpectedly run 1:23:5X in Mullingar at the weekend so in two minds now.

    I've missed a lot of endurance base so probably going to wait. Patience is the toughest skill to master when it comes to running. Anyone have any experience of Limerick - would there be any sort of decent numbers in the 2:59 group to hang on to?


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  • http://www.marathonguide.com/results/browse.cfm?MIDD=3689170430

    There seems to be 6-8 going for sub 3 each year. There was a sub 3 pacer (Testostercone) back in 2014, don't know if they have one every year.




  • EC1000 wrote: »
    I had a calf injury that stopped me running from Christmas until the end of February so had ruled out any attempt at sub 3 in Rotterdam and had considered maybe just running Rotterdam as a long run and trying again at Limerick in a few weeks. However, I managed to unexpectedly run 1:23:5X in Mullingar at the weekend so in two minds now.

    I've missed a lot of endurance base so probably going to wait. Patience is the toughest skill to master when it comes to running. Anyone have any experience of Limerick - would there be any sort of decent numbers in the 2:59 group to hang on to?
    Hi EC1000.I've run with the sub 3 pacers the last 3 year's,and there's always a nice group of 20/30 runners starting out,going for it.If dermot kearns is pacing it again,you can't go wrong.Gives great advise to runner's the whole way around.




  • EC1000 wrote: »
    I had a calf injury that stopped me running from Christmas until the end of February so had ruled out any attempt at sub 3 in Rotterdam and had considered maybe just running Rotterdam as a long run and trying again at Limerick in a few weeks. However, I managed to unexpectedly run 1:23:5X in Mullingar at the weekend so in two minds now.

    I've missed a lot of endurance base so probably going to wait. Patience is the toughest skill to master when it comes to running. Anyone have any experience of Limerick - would there be any sort of decent numbers in the 2:59 group to hang on to?

    Sure you have nothing to lose by going for it. It's often when you least expect it that things might click into place. If you don't manage it you have a ready made excuse, no psychological damage done.




  • noelearly wrote: »
    If you don't manage it you have a ready made excuse, no psychological damage done.

    Cheers, it's the physical harm I'm more worried about! If I go for it and fail, my concern would be that it would take a couple of weeks to recover and potentially hamper a proper approach to Limerick. I've only one 16 miler and one 18 miler done so will do 20 milers the next two weekends (not ideal prep for a 3 hr attempt in Rotterdam) and see how I feel come race weekend. Kerrylad's post of 20 to 30 runners sounds like there would be plenty of company for the initial phase in Limerick anyway.




  • Had almost a month off after doing 1:24:04 in a half there. Nothing was essentially injured but everything had tightened up. I’m going to try to fast track a plan to get into sub3 shape for Derry in just under 11 weeks. If I don’t have the legs on the big day I’ll not be too annoyed I’m looking forward to a no pressure crack at it




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Had almost a month off after doing 1:24:04 in a half there. Nothing was essentially injured but everything had tightened up. I’m going to try to fast track a plan to get into sub3 shape for Derry in just under 11 weeks. If I don’t have the legs on the big day I’ll not be too annoyed I’m looking forward to a no pressure crack at it
    11 weeks isn't a bad timeframe after a 1.24 Half




  • squinn2912 wrote: »
    Had almost a month off after doing 1:24:04 in a half there. Nothing was essentially injured but everything had tightened up. I’m going to try to fast track a plan to get into sub3 shape for Derry in just under 11 weeks. If I don’t have the legs on the big day I’ll not be too annoyed I’m looking forward to a no pressure crack at it

    Just make sure that calf of yours is fine & 11 weeks gives you good time to get into sub 3 shape.




  • Yea I think so. Just in from the Physio and I’m good to go so a bit of building this week then reintroduce a bit of speed from next week on and see where that takes me.




  • Its about 5 weeks until London, training and mileage has been pretty decent and consistent. I do feel a little slower or it feels a little bit tougher than last year though, but I think some of that is psychological as much of my training has been in really cold wet or snowy weather (as I am sure most of you have experienced recently!)

    Any tips for how much speed work to try and include in my last few weeks, or will I end up just undoing a lot of work that's already there? I guess I am looken to sharpen up as opposed to gain speed!

    I don't have any halfs planned in (time is at a premium with job and life commitments) so don't really have anything to gauge against properly. I did do 15km at MP+10s last Monday and felt pretty good, so maybe its just in my head.


    I am following a modified (by me, to suit my life!) P&F 55-70 miles per week plan, so maybe I am just at that leg exhaustion point with the after a few mile heavy weeks.


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  • What are you shooting for? If it’s sub3 did you run your 15km at 7s or thereabouts? What was the rest of the week like?
    That’s more miles than I would usually do but slower tempo workout. I know what works for me and I tend not to deviate much. I’d try not to chop and change at this stage


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