Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

ressem · 07-01-2018 11:26PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are numerous examples of the British engaging in unlawful acts and as players in the conflict/war.
The victims of their particular violence can legitimately call rhem terrorists as a result.

All players utilized terror to achieve their aims. The simple harsh reality of a conflict/war.

False. What terror did the SDLP use. Or human rights activists. Or the maimed civilians. The republic's government? Unlike you, no I don't accept that the british government made a decision to commit terror against people in Ulster.

The word applied to one side is redundant and meaningless.

False. It is a description of vile and repugnant acts carried out against civilians, and where it is applicable to a group of attackers, it should be applied. It must not be waved away as inconsequential.
Some of the hurt victims will forgive, others bite their tongue and restrain from responding in kind, knowing that they would likely hurt the wrong people.
Others lash out.

Why is that so hard to understand? The provos claim to have originated to defend catholic civilians. Then they started inflicting their own terror and control on their own community and beyond.

To attempt to get back on topic... restarting this violence would be harmful to the people of the 6 counties and to the 26. So no, unless there is an enormous change of opinion in the north to be part of the Republic or EU, no I'd still oppose a united Ireland if it was only a 51-49% vote in favour in the 6 counties.

Zaph · 07-01-2018 11:27PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are numerous examples of the British engaging in unlawful acts and as players in the conflict/war.
The victims of their particular violence can legitimately call rhem terrorists as a result.

All players utilized terror to achieve their aims. The simple harsh reality of a conflict/war.
The word applied to one side is redundant and meaningless.

What has any of that got to do with wotzgoingon's assertion that the IRA weren't terrorists?

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 11:30PM

Zaph wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with wotzgoingon's assertion that the IRA weren't terrorists?

I didn't engage with him/her at all. I was replying to another post.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 11:35PM

ressem wrote: »

False. What terror did the SDLP use. Or human rights activists. Or the maimed civilians. The republic's government? Unlike you, no I don't accept that the british government made a decision to commit terror against people in Ulster.

The SDLP were players in the violence? Who knew.

False. It is a description of vile and repugnant acts carried out against civilians, and where it is applicable to a group of attackers, it should be applied. It must not be waved away as inconsequential.
Some of the hurt victims will forgive, others bite their tongue and restrain from responding in kind, knowing that they would likely hurt the wrong people.
Others lash out.

Why is that so hard to understand? The provos claim to have originated to defend catholic civilians. Then they started inflicting their own terror and control on their own community and beyond.

Again, the British army terrorised many (including myself on numerous occasions) in pursuit of the British governments aims. They were not my army, therefore they were terrorists.

Zaph · 07-01-2018 11:47PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't engage with him/her at all. I was replying to another post.

Yes, you replied to my post which was in response to his post. And your reply had nothing to do with what I stated either, it's purely whataboutery for the sake of it.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 11:52PM

Zaph wrote: »

Yes, you replied to my post which was in response to his post. And your reply had nothing to do with what I stated either, it's purely whataboutery for the sake of it.

You had a select list, so do I and all the players in the conflict/war are on mine. If the BA were a neutral force as they should have been, they wouldn't be on it. Simple.

markodaly · 08-01-2018 12:32AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You had a select list, so do I and all the players in the conflict/war are on mine. If the BA were a neutral force as they should have been, they wouldn't be on it. Simple.

All the players were not involved in terrorism. The SDLP to take one example. It is not a good retort in defending PIRA atrocities with the glib claim that 'Sure, they were all at it'.

And before you post back with the latest straw-man, no one is defending the Loyalists or British army actions like Bloody Sunday. So, we can park the 'What about them' retort off the bat.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 12:47AM

markodaly wrote: »

All the players were not involved in terrorism. The SDLP to take one example. It is not a good retort in defending PIRA atrocities with the glib claim that 'Sure, they were all at it'.

And before you post back with the latest straw-man, no one is defending the Loyalists or British army actions like Bloody Sunday. So, we can park the 'What about them' retort off the bat.

Were the SDLP players in the armed conflict? I mean do we have to be literal about everything. Was it not obvious we were talking about those engaged in the violence? Jesus H.

markodaly · 08-01-2018 12:53AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Were the SDLP players in the armed conflict? I mean do we have to be literal about everything. Was it not obvious we were talking about those engaged in the violence? Jesus H.

Yes, we have to be literal about it because with your grand sweeping statements and your inability to communicate effectively you pass yourself off with someone who blows a lot of hot air, with little actual knowledge of the details.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:04AM

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, we have to be literal about it because with your grand sweeping statements and your inability to communicate effectively you pass yourself off with someone who blows a lot of hot air, with little actual knowledge of the details.

Em, somebody trying to get the SDLP included as 'players' in the violence strikes me as somebody painfully uninformed, much as I dislike the SDLP.

But carry on. The nuns will under consideration soon at this rate.

markodaly · 08-01-2018 01:16AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Em, somebody trying to get the SDLP included as 'players' in the violence strikes me as somebody painfully uninformed, much as I dislike the SDLP. But carry on. The nuns will under consideration soon at this rate.

It shows you how much you actually don't know about the conflict in the North that you don't rate the SDLP. But there you go, cant really expect much from apologists of the murder of children and old men.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:25AM

markodaly wrote: »

It shows you how much you actually don't know about the conflict in the North that you don't rate the SDLP. But there you go, cant really expect much from apologists of the murder of children and old men.

Wow that escalated quickly.

I said I don't like the SDLP, I didn't 'rate' them.
If you can quote me as an apologist for the murder of 'children' and 'old men' that would be good.

Do you know how many children the British army killed during the conflict/war btw? In a non 'terrifying' way allegedly.

08-01-2018 01:35AM

Can't imagine the logic going on in your brains when you're arguing who was worse when they were all murdering ****s.

Reason enough for never allowing a United Ireland. To keep both sides far from the people in the Republic. I don't really care who was worse. They all stooped far lower than they ever should have.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:39AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't imagine the logic going on in your brains when you're arguing who was worse when they were all murdering ****s.

Reason enough for never allowing a United Ireland. To keep both sides far from the people in the Republic. I don't really care who was worse. They all stooped far lower than they ever should have.

The tragedy of any conflict/war. Happened down south just a few decades before. Has happened all over the world, and people can put it behind them if the cause of it is removed. A lesson that still hasn't been learned by some.

08-01-2018 01:48AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The tragedy of any conflict/war. Happened down south just a few decades before. Has happened all over the world, and people can put it behind them if the cause of it is removed. A lesson that still hasn't been learned by some.

It's more than a few decades now... the people who haven't learned are dreamers and frankly, the armchair generals content for others to die to fertilize their dreams. Valiant heroes all.

Tigger · 08-01-2018 01:53AM

I’m patriotic for my country and my country men i was born in this republic of 26 counties and I love it
Ive met men of the nationalist persuasion from the north that don’t like me and us because we left them behind or some such crap and the other unionist side seem to hate us
So I’m patriotic for my country the only country I’ve ever known
And I don’t give a damn about unification

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:55AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's more than a few decades now... the people who haven't learned are dreamers and frankly, the armchair generals content for others to die to fertilize their dreams. Valiant heroes all.

No, it is those who are totally ignoring that northern Ireland has yet again hit a road block on the road to normality. And it is for the same reason that we had our own bloodshed here in the south.

markodaly · 08-01-2018 03:39AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Wow that escalated quickly.

I said I don't like the SDLP, I didn't 'rate' them.
If you can quote me as an apologist for the murder of 'children' and 'old men' that would be good.

Do you know how many children the British army killed during the conflict/war btw? In a non 'terrifying' way allegedly.

Ah, there it is. "But the British Army did x,y,z" The classic retort for excusers of PIRA murders of women and children.

wotzgoingon · 08-01-2018 04:37AM

markodaly wrote: »

wotzgoingon wrote: »

They can be what ever they want to be so long as they do not march over a 100% bigoted march which they never admit to but every sane persons knows they do.

Eh, What?

I think you better stop posting as your posts are becoming unreadable and illegible. Lay off the COD as well.

Luckily I decided to browse through this thread and came across your post. I found you out man.

I was going to write a lot of stuff but I would just be banned. I'm pretty sure the rest of the anti Irish in this thread don't fall far from the tree. Have you not got your own websites to go on. Are you and your buddy's looking forward to the marching season this year.

I found you out man. Your not as intelligent as you think.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 09:08AM

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, there it is. "But the British Army did x,y,z" The classic retort for excusers of PIRA murders of women and children.

You just accused me of being apologist for the murders of children and old men and didn't back it up in any way.

Pointing out that the BA, you are defending, killed many many children too is also excusing?
Despite your incredible hypocrisy and quite wrong accusation, it is not excusing, it is demonstrating that the BA also terrified many by their actions and for that reason can be called terrorists by those they terrified.

baylah17 · 08-01-2018 09:13AM

i would consider myself patriotic but I have no interest in and indeed would campaign against unification of the island.
I dont find I have much in common with Northern Irelanders, no harm to them but they have their place and I have mine.

Benildus · 08-01-2018 09:16AM

wotzgoingon wrote: »

Luckily I decided to browse through this thread and came across your post. I found you out man.

I was going to write a lot of stuff but I would just be banned. I'm pretty sure the rest of the anti Irish in this thread don't fall far from the tree. Have you not got your own websites to go on. Are you and your buddy's looking forward to the marching season this year.

I found you out man. Your not as intelligent as you think.

indeed

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 09:21AM

baylah17 wrote: »

i would consider myself patriotic but I have no interest in and indeed would campaign against unification of the island.
I dont find I have much in common with Northern Irelanders, no harm to them but they have their place and I have mine.

So you would campaign against on the basis that you have nothing in common with the people of NI?
You do realise your campaign would be immediately undermined by the fact you would be standing on the same island as them? Of course you have 'something' in common with them. And you have an increasing amount in common with 'them' as all island structures and institutions grow as a result of the GFA which was signed by Irish government on behalf of the people from the south too.
Don't print those leaflets yet.

baylah17 · 08-01-2018 09:27AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you would campaign against on the basis that you have nothing in common with the people of NI?
You do realise your campaign would be immediately undermined by the fact you would be standing on the same island as them? Of course you have 'something' in common with them. And you have an increasing amount in common with 'them' as all island structures and institutions grow as a result of the GFA which was signed by Irish government on behalf of the people from the south too.
Don't print those leaflets yet.

Many countries share islands, that in and of itself is no basis for unifying them.
I have no more in common with Northerners that I have with the French , Dutch etc.
It does not behove you to decide for me what I have in common or with whom.
Either way the point is moot as there is feck all chance of the disaster that would be unification ever coming to pass.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 09:30AM

baylah17 wrote: »

Many countries share islands, that in and of itself is no basis for unifying them.
I have no more in common with Northerners that I have with the French , Dutch etc.
It does not behove you to decide for me what I have in common or with whom.
Either way the point is moot as there is feck all chance of the disaster that would be unification ever coming to pass.

Disregarding the un-backed up contention at the end of that, denying commonality is silly. Do not 'campaign' on that basis, you will be laughed at.

Try, 'I don't want unification just because', despite how it sounds, it actually makes more sense than your earlier proposition.

Samaris · 08-01-2018 09:43AM

No, it is not unpatriotic. It is a huge decision that would profoundly affect the lives of people of two countries and deserves to be treated with a serious consideration of upsides and downsides to citizens of both countries.

It does no service to the question to throw out such emotive words as "unpatriotic" at those who dare give it full consideration. What are we, lemmings who must follow the "a nation once again" line with no regard for northerners who will not want it and border counties in our own country who may have genuine fears about violence breaking out again? It sounds much like the "traitors!" bull**** going on in the British media over Brexit. This question deserves to be treated with more respect and consideration than religious fervor.

I am Undecided. If the North voted solidly for unification, I would probably vote Yes, especially given the brexit situation and the border. I would do it with some trepidation however, as I wondered just what we were all (North and Rep) were letting ourselves in for, how much taxes would have to rise to help support the North into integration, how a fairly different culture would settle into that of the Republic, how Unionists would react and what it would mean for Stormont. They will have valid fears about how they might be treated too and that also must be respected and ameliorated.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 09:50AM

Samaris wrote: »

No, it is not unpatriotic. It is a huge decision that would profoundly affect the lives of people of two countries and deserves to be treated with a serious consideration of upsides and downsides to citizens of both countries.

It does no service to the question to throw out such emotive words as "unpatriotic" at those who dare give it full consideration. What are we, lemmings who must follow the "a nation once again" line with no regard for northerners who will not want it and border counties in our own country who may have genuine fears about violence breaking out again? It sounds much like the "traitors!" bull**** going on in the British media over Brexit. This question deserves to be treated with more respect and consideration than religious fervor.

I am Undecided. If the North voted solidly for unification, I would probably vote Yes, especially given the brexit situation and the border. I would do it with some trepidation however, as I wondered just what we were all (North and Rep) were letting ourselves in for, how much taxes would have to rise to help support the North into integration, how a fairly different culture would settle into that of the Republic, how Unionists would react and what it would mean for Stormont. They will have valid fears about how they might be treated too and that also must be respected and ameliorated.

While I absolutely agree that it must be considered in a serious way and with the full transparent information in front of us, I think there is a nuance being missed.

I don't have a problem at all with those who reach their conclusions after serious consideration of the actual facts, but the question is asked in the OP about those who would 'oppose' unification presumably after a majority vote for it in NI.
To actively oppose it in those circumstances is to be anti our constitution and can therefore be considered unpatriotic.
Which is also your prerogative to be if you oppose something strongly enough.

Kermit.de.frog · 08-01-2018 09:59AM

I don't want a UI until the north can pay it's own way.

tomwaterford · 08-01-2018 10:12AM

markodaly wrote: »

All the players were not involved in terrorism. The SDLP to take one example.

The SDLP used encourage people to provide info to the ruc etc....in the full knowledge,what the ruc in large parts of the north like south armagh were at in massacring innocents

Basically assisting in attacking the very population they properte to represent....people go to them to complain about excessive stop and search going to gaa matches etc....sdlp go to the police with the names of those who complained and they get taken away for internment??

Quite a weak foundation your building these supposed peace lovers on tbh

_Kaiser_ · 08-01-2018 10:19AM

A few days later and this thread shows exactly why the a United Ireland is a bad idea.

Anyone expressing legitimate concerns about the economics of the idea, the security concerns, or the history involved is labelled unpatriotic, a West Brit or a Prod by the armchair Republicans :rolleyes:

Then there's the lad talking about driving up and down the road with machine guns.... Riiiiight!
The genuinely sad thing I suppose is that this mindset still exists but it's absolutely the best indicator that the whole idea is a bad one because, despite what they might think, there's clearly a lot of people who aren't as ready for a United Ireland as they think they are.

Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

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