Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

Foxhound38

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

The Golden Miller

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

Dr Crayfish

I'm unpatriotic I guess. Then again why should I be patriotic, it's not like our Government cares about us.

Foxhound38

The Golden Miller wrote: »

In theory, being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Again, I really don't see any contradiction between being a patriotic citizen of this State, and opposing something that may well destroy its economy and start a civil war.

diomed

The idea is linked to living on an island. If we were attached to mainland Europe would we want the whole continent?

c_man

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Meh, sounds like pre-Bismarck Germany. Or the Klingons in Star Trek Discovery.

riffmongous

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Again, I really don't see any contradiction between being a patriotic citizen of this State, and opposing something that may well destroy its economy and start a civil war.

Well at the time of the micro-entities a lot of other countries we take for granted now were also at the micro entity stage, and Ireland up until the arrival of the Normans was showing signs of moving towards a more centralised system.

Beasty

How can it? I'm British.

Hector Bellend

Not necessarily.

Depends on your reasons

Jawgap

HonalD

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

Eh, your “definition” of patriotism is unclear and therefore defeats your argument.

However, it depends on whether you are looking at being patriotic to your country or “people”.

I’m with the clowns seemingly.

Fr_Dougal

Beasty wrote: »

How can it? I'm British.

major bill

If your reasoning is not based on Bigorty or prejudice then no you are not unpatriotic for not wanting a United Ireland imo as people should be free to draw up the pros and cons before going to the polls.

silverharp

never really a fan of countries like Belgium where the politics depend on what ethnic group you belong to. A United Ireland would create similar problems, if unionist culture were to melt away in a generation fair enough but if not, good neighbours will do

WoollyRedHat

diomed wrote: »

The idea is linked to living on an island. If we were attached to mainland Europe would we want the whole continent?

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

FTA69

Yep, being opposed to Irish self-determination negates anyone claiming to be a patriot.

Seems more patriotic to want the best for the Republic, and not joining with the North. After all, I have yet to see any realistic suggestions of how the North wouldn't destroy us economically, and also not bring about the social/paramilitary problems associated with the Northern inhabitants being merged with the South.

animaal

Would a Russian be unpatriotic for being against Russia's expansion into Crimea?

Not necessarily, in my opinion. And I'd have the same answer for the question asked in this thread.

The_Valeyard

Heart says yes.

But my minds say no.

Conall Cernach

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

And as in the game Risk capturing the continent of Australia early is the key to victory and sure we're half way there already.

Foxhound38

FTA69 wrote: »

Yep, being opposed to Irish self-determination negates anyone claiming to be a patriot.

Self-determination requires asking people their opinion occasionally - if one of those opinions is deemed the "wrong" opinion, then that's not really self-determination, is it?

ancapailldorcha

Adding what is an economic black hole where the only industry is a swollen public sector which will fully expect to be kept in the lifestyle it is currently on funded by Westminster seems like a very bad idea to me and that's before you factor in potential violence and terrorism.

patchyamac

Yes,yes it does....Tiocfaidh ár lá

ohnonotgmail

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

very appropriate

HalloweenJack

In an ideal world, a United Ireland would be perfect.

However, we don't live in an ideal world. The reality of the situation up North means that we've gone beyond a possible United Ireland, imo.

The Unionist community is not going to disappear overnight simply by joining us. Maybe further down the line, in a few generations' time, their descendants will have accepted it but I can see it as being a lot of trouble in the short term.

While the Nationalists have been treated unfairly and belong to a country they don't identify with, it's hardly fair to then do the same to the Unionists, not to mention the mess that would cause with all of a sudden having a sizeable minority who want our country to be part of the UK as opposed to the comfortable majority who now have who want to be independent.

With all that's gone on up North, I reckon the most practical solution is to go their own way and develop a state like Belgium or Bosnia where two communities attempt to work side by side, not that it seems to work particularly well. I don't see any other practical solution for the mess the UK administration have made up there.

end of the road

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

Benildus

No to a United Ireland. Keep the Nordies in Nordieland.

dd972

Not a question of patriotism, I'm a moderate Nationalist who wants a UI but thinks nobody should kill or die for a UI or for 'Ulster'. I wouldn't mind waiting another 10-30 years for it if it meant no bloodshed.

Avatar MIA

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I'm unpatriotic I guess. Then again why should I be patriotic, it's not like our Government cares about us.

Shur, shoehorn "The Government!" into it there why don't you. Even though patriotism has got sweet FA to do with any transient government. But, the cat had kittens last night, bloody government not providing feline contraceptives.

Anyway, if you consider the island of Ireland as your country then yes it's unpatriotic. However, if you see the Republic of Ireland as your Ireland, then it's not. I'd fall into the former view myself.

Ronaldinho

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

And Unionists be damned? Is it fair to say that you don't seem to have much regard for their perspective on the issue?

Edit: For me to get behind the idea of unification I would want to see a landslide (90%+) in favour in Northern Ireland (it's a question for them first and foremost) and then a similar proportion being in favour in the Republic. It would be a massive step, and not one to be taken by a simple majority.

hatrickpatrick

For the record, I somewhat oppose a United Ireland because I'm a huge fan of buying a nice big box of roman candles at Halloween, which is made infinitely easier by border smugglers