Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

Foxhound38

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

The Golden Miller

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

Dr Crayfish

I'm unpatriotic I guess. Then again why should I be patriotic, it's not like our Government cares about us.

Foxhound38

The Golden Miller wrote: »

In theory, being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Again, I really don't see any contradiction between being a patriotic citizen of this State, and opposing something that may well destroy its economy and start a civil war.

diomed

The idea is linked to living on an island. If we were attached to mainland Europe would we want the whole continent?

c_man

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Meh, sounds like pre-Bismarck Germany. Or the Klingons in Star Trek Discovery.

riffmongous

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But Ireland has never been united as a single entity except under Britain - before that it largely a bunch of warring micro-entities based around clans that occasionally cooperated with each other when convenient.

Again, I really don't see any contradiction between being a patriotic citizen of this State, and opposing something that may well destroy its economy and start a civil war.

Well at the time of the micro-entities a lot of other countries we take for granted now were also at the micro entity stage, and Ireland up until the arrival of the Normans was showing signs of moving towards a more centralised system.

Beasty

How can it? I'm British.

Hector Bellend

Not necessarily.

Depends on your reasons

Jawgap

HonalD

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

Eh, your “definition” of patriotism is unclear and therefore defeats your argument.

However, it depends on whether you are looking at being patriotic to your country or “people”.

I’m with the clowns seemingly.

Fr_Dougal

Beasty wrote: »

How can it? I'm British.

major bill

If your reasoning is not based on Bigorty or prejudice then no you are not unpatriotic for not wanting a United Ireland imo as people should be free to draw up the pros and cons before going to the polls.

silverharp

never really a fan of countries like Belgium where the politics depend on what ethnic group you belong to. A United Ireland would create similar problems, if unionist culture were to melt away in a generation fair enough but if not, good neighbours will do

WoollyRedHat

diomed wrote: »

The idea is linked to living on an island. If we were attached to mainland Europe would we want the whole continent?

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

FTA69

Yep, being opposed to Irish self-determination negates anyone claiming to be a patriot.

Seems more patriotic to want the best for the Republic, and not joining with the North. After all, I have yet to see any realistic suggestions of how the North wouldn't destroy us economically, and also not bring about the social/paramilitary problems associated with the Northern inhabitants being merged with the South.

animaal

Would a Russian be unpatriotic for being against Russia's expansion into Crimea?

Not necessarily, in my opinion. And I'd have the same answer for the question asked in this thread.

The_Valeyard

Heart says yes.

But my minds say no.

Conall Cernach

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

And as in the game Risk capturing the continent of Australia early is the key to victory and sure we're half way there already.

Foxhound38

FTA69 wrote: »

Yep, being opposed to Irish self-determination negates anyone claiming to be a patriot.

Self-determination requires asking people their opinion occasionally - if one of those opinions is deemed the "wrong" opinion, then that's not really self-determination, is it?

ancapailldorcha

Adding what is an economic black hole where the only industry is a swollen public sector which will fully expect to be kept in the lifestyle it is currently on funded by Westminster seems like a very bad idea to me and that's before you factor in potential violence and terrorism.

patchyamac

Yes,yes it does....Tiocfaidh ár lá

ohnonotgmail

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Yes, and one day it will be ours, the expansion of the Celtic Empire starts slowly, invoking the spirit of Wolf Tone, The Dubliners and Cu Chulainn, creeping up to the hollowed North before crossing the cold Atlantic ocean to the East then on to rule britania. Then our march on to Europe shall begin in earnest, from the lowly hills of Catalonia to the splenid vineyards of Southern France, our invasion shall be a riverdance of the continent . A real life game of Game of Thrones/ Risk awaits us, will your brethren answer the call? Or watch from afar while drinking guiness? Celts to rule them all.

very appropriate

HalloweenJack

In an ideal world, a United Ireland would be perfect.

However, we don't live in an ideal world. The reality of the situation up North means that we've gone beyond a possible United Ireland, imo.

The Unionist community is not going to disappear overnight simply by joining us. Maybe further down the line, in a few generations' time, their descendants will have accepted it but I can see it as being a lot of trouble in the short term.

While the Nationalists have been treated unfairly and belong to a country they don't identify with, it's hardly fair to then do the same to the Unionists, not to mention the mess that would cause with all of a sudden having a sizeable minority who want our country to be part of the UK as opposed to the comfortable majority who now have who want to be independent.

With all that's gone on up North, I reckon the most practical solution is to go their own way and develop a state like Belgium or Bosnia where two communities attempt to work side by side, not that it seems to work particularly well. I don't see any other practical solution for the mess the UK administration have made up there.

end of the road

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

Benildus

No to a United Ireland. Keep the Nordies in Nordieland.

dd972

Not a question of patriotism, I'm a moderate Nationalist who wants a UI but thinks nobody should kill or die for a UI or for 'Ulster'. I wouldn't mind waiting another 10-30 years for it if it meant no bloodshed.

Avatar MIA

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I'm unpatriotic I guess. Then again why should I be patriotic, it's not like our Government cares about us.

Shur, shoehorn "The Government!" into it there why don't you. Even though patriotism has got sweet FA to do with any transient government. But, the cat had kittens last night, bloody government not providing feline contraceptives.

Anyway, if you consider the island of Ireland as your country then yes it's unpatriotic. However, if you see the Republic of Ireland as your Ireland, then it's not. I'd fall into the former view myself.

Ronaldinho

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

And Unionists be damned? Is it fair to say that you don't seem to have much regard for their perspective on the issue?

Edit: For me to get behind the idea of unification I would want to see a landslide (90%+) in favour in Northern Ireland (it's a question for them first and foremost) and then a similar proportion being in favour in the Republic. It would be a massive step, and not one to be taken by a simple majority.

hatrickpatrick

For the record, I somewhat oppose a United Ireland because I'm a huge fan of buying a nice big box of roman candles at Halloween, which is made infinitely easier by border smugglers

Your Face

Wanting to keep the North out of the Republic is smart.

Smart and patriotism don't mix.

end of the road

Ronaldinho wrote: »

And Unionists be damned? Is it fair to say that you don't seem to have much regard for their perspective on the issue?

i want the unionists to come join us and build this great nation, and i think they will one day see that we are the country that actually does care about them and want to look out for their interests unlike britain who doesn't care and who have kept them in a situation where their communities aren't growing and prospering. so yes, i actually do care about them, but i believe they have no future as part of britain.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

diomed

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkADiJCYS2k

Ronaldinho

end of the road wrote: »

i want the unionists to come join us and build this great nation, and i think they will one day see that we are the country that actually does care about them and want to look out for their interests unlike britain who doesn't care and who have kept them in a situation where their communities aren't growing and prospering. so yes, i actually do care about them, but i believe they have no future as part of britain.

Fair enough - but I think they would have to be totally on board to make it work. And I don't think that is likely to happen for several generations. But what's 50-70 years really in the scheme of things.

I remember as a kid seeing the reporting of the troubles on TV - used to scare the sh1t out of me! And then the Omagh bombings - the first time I was old enough to understand the significance of it. We shouldn't take the progress that has been made through the Peace Process for granted. I've been kind of surprised and a little aghast to be honest at all the talk of unification since the Brexit talks kicked off. Not because I'm necessarily opposed to the idea over the long term, but I think it's too soon for it to happen. I would worry that it could spark a return to sectarianism and set us back decades.

SeanSouth

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

Greyfox

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well... reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

I think this is the most riddiculous post of the decade. If your against a united Ireland it just means your intelligent are live in the real world. Northern Ireland is lovely, full of great people but it's not my country. Im patriotic and proud to be from the rep of Ireland, some people need to put the history book down. People who live in the past just have a negative impact on society.

bear1

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

So you are seriously suggesting that we simply return to British rule?
Now what a slap in the face that would be to our history.
Small countries don't survive? May want to literally rethink that.

Jawgap

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

Really? Us? Too immature?

Maybe......but at least we would never be mad enough to pull a stunt like Brexit, not even as a joke

end of the road

Greyfox wrote: »

I think this is the most riddiculous post of the decade. If your against a united Ireland it just means your intelligent are live in the real world. Northern Ireland is lovely, full of great people but it's not my country. Im patriotic and proud to be from the rep of Ireland, some people need to put the history book down. People who live in the past just have a negative impact on society.

northern ireland is part of your country whether you like it or not.

SeanSouth

As long as people are willing to use emotive and derisory language like "British Rule" we will never move forward.
Did it ever strike you that there might be a reason why 60 million people in the UK are quite happy to be British ? Did it ever cross your mind
that the British might not be the green eyed monsters that De Valera and Collins made them out to be. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe our great leaders might have had their own and very personalised agendas ? Did it ever cross your mind that the leaders of 1916 might have had their own egotistical reasons for becoming "great men' of a new irish republic. As far as Im concerned, the irish people were fed a crock of sh*t one hundred years ago. The leaders of that age would have done us a lot greater service to unite the British Isles than to separate it. Do you really think it makes sense to be more patriotic to one piece of land rather than another. I'm as Irish as the next man. I feel its very important that we celebrate our Irishness and preserve our language and culture. Do we need to have a separate country to do that ? Not at all. It only serves as a niche gravy train for a privileged few. That was the case then and is still the case today. Unfortunately we have an entrenched mindset, "the fighting Irish" "with O'Leary in the grave". I'm very confident that our highly educated young people will kick all that nonsense to touch sooner rather than later. Amen to that

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

northern is part of your country whether you like it or not.

that you dont even know what a country is means that all your posts on this topic are best ignored

Greyfox

end of the road wrote: »

northern ireland is part of your country whether you like it or not.

Hmmm different laws, different currency, that very clear border...

end of the road

SeanSouth wrote: »

As long as people are willing to use emotive and derisory language like "British Rule" we will never move forward.
Did it ever strike you that there might be a reason why 60 million people in the UK are quite happy to be British ? Did it ever cross your mind
that the British might not be the green eyed monsters that De Valera and Collins made them out to be. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe our great leaders might have had their own and very personalised agendas ? Did it ever cross your mind that the leaders of 1916 might have had their own egotistical reasons for becoming "great men' of a new irish republic. As far as Im concerned, the irish people were fed a crock of sh*t one hundred years ago. The leaders of that age would have done us a lot greater service to unite the British Isles than to separate it. Do you really think it makes sense to be more patriotic to one piece of land rather than another. I'm as Irish as the next man. I feel its very important that we celebrate our Irishness and preserve our language and culture. Do we need to have a separate country to do that ? Not at all. It only serves as a niche gravy train for a privileged few. That was the case then and is still the case today. Unfortunately we have an entrenched mindset, "the fighting Irish" "with O'Leary in the grave". I'm very confident that our highly educated young people will kick all that nonsense to touch sooner rather than later. Amen to that

the 1916 heroes fed nobody any lies. the people of ireland wanted to be free and we are free. we do not want to be part of britain. when we were part of britain, it was against our will. no more will we be colonised. if people want to be part of britain they are free to go and live there.

SeanSouth

People werent "free" after independance. If you know the economic history of Ireland, you will know that the Irish people suffered untold poverty and emigration after that, apart from a brief respite in the 1960s. And as for the thousands who had to emigrate...... Where do you think they emigrated to ? They emigrated to Britain and most of them were very successful and content there. And what about the great leaders who engineered that fine mess. They suffered neither poverty or emigration. When are we going to take off the blinkers. We cant be that stupid. Brain washed, yes. Stupid, no..

Cee-Jay-Cee

I guess I’m unpatriotic too as I never want to see a united Ireland. First of all, I don’t want the staunch bigoted idiotic Unionists from NI being part of this country. Equally I don’t want the staunch republican thugs and criminals from NI being part of this country.

Apart from the above we can’t afford it, the country would be crippled within months.

Even if there was 100% agreement from every single citizen for both Ireland and Northern Ireland, it is never going to happen as the logistics of transferring social, medical, educational services, policing, county councils, etc etc would be an impossible task which would topple government after government in their efforts to knit everything together. This is the thing that puzzles me most, we have politicians on both sides of the border who have talked about a united Ireland many times recently but clearly none of them have given the actual unification process a minutes thought because if they had they’d shut their mouths and forget totally about it.

It will never ever ever happen and with Britain leaving the EU, it’s made it even more impossible.

Jimbob1977

East Germany cost West Germany a lot of money.

But unification was in the heart of almost every German.

Some things, like your nation's integrity, can't be boiled down to cash.

Unification should be the aspiration of every Irish person. Peacefully of course.

P_1

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

A federation of the British Isles type situation could potentially work I guess. Fully devolved Leinster, Munster, Connacht, Ulster, Highlands, Lowlands, Wales, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Cornwall, Wessex and London with a population based senate overseeing the whole thing.

end of the road

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I guess I’m unpatriotic too as I never want to see a united Ireland. First of all, I don’t want the staunch bigoted idiotic Unionists from NI being part of this country. Equally I don’t want the staunch republican thugs and criminals from NI being part of this country.

Apart from the above we can’t afford it, the country would be crippled within months.

Even if there was 100% agreement from every single citizen for both Ireland and Northern Ireland, it is never going to happen as the logistics of transferring social, medical, educational services, policing, county councils, etc etc would be an impossible task which would topple government after government in their efforts to knit everything together. This is the thing that puzzles me most, we have politicians on both sides of the border who have talked about a united Ireland many times recently but clearly none of them have given the actual unification process a minutes thought because if they had they’d shut their mouths and forget totally about it.

It will never ever ever happen and with Britain leaving the EU, it’s made it even more impossible.

we can afford it. the idea that we can't is a lie with no evidential basis, that is perpetuated because all the other arguments failed. transfering all the services is very doable. there are no arguments against a UI. lots of lies which don't stack up however. a UI is going to happen.

P_1 wrote: »

A federation of the British Isles type situation could potentially work I guess. Fully devolved Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Cornwall, Wessex and London with a population based senate overseeing the whole thing.

ireland can be counted out of this. ireland is a free independant country.