Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

end of the road · 07-01-2018 07:54PM

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

it's you who is mixing up countries. all of ireland is 1 country, a small part of it is ruled by britain on a temporary basis and will be returned to irish rule soon. ireland, the 32 county ireland, is the only ireland and reunification with the north would make little difference to the country's good future. it is happening, so get used to it.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 07:55PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What are you if you 'oppose' the constitution of your country?

I oppose the 8th amendment, does that make me unpatriotic?

OldMrBrennan83 · 07-01-2018 07:56PM

This post has been deleted.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 07:57PM

markodaly wrote: »

I oppose the 8th amendment, does that make me unpatriotic?

Yes, if you do nothing to change the constitution. The particular clause is an aspiration of the state. If you don't agree with it and oppose it, you are against the state in respect of that clause.

It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island.

wotzgoingon · 07-01-2018 07:59PM

Anyway I'm out of this thread. I find boards.ie great for everything but I rarely post in AH or politics. As the amount of west brits here really surprises me. I wouldn't be surprised if half them are prods pretending to be Irish for what ever reason. I'm not one to judge how somebody gets their kicks but afaik no Irish person signs up to some britian first webpage and pretends to be british and posts anti british stuff.

Skylinehead · 07-01-2018 07:59PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, if you do nothing to change the constitution. The particular clause is an aspiration of the state. If you don't agree with it and oppose it, you are against the state in respect of that clause.

The state and the country are different things. Patriotism can be pride in either/both. You know the government is the state, and I know you don't like them. Should I call you unpatriotic? No, because that would be silly. Patriotism has nothing to do with the constitution. It is simply pride in ones country. That's it. You don't need to follow pieces of paper at all.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, if you do nothing to change the constitution. The particular clause is an aspiration of the state. If you don't agree with it and oppose it, you are against the state in respect of that clause.

So you view the constitution as something that is set in stone and anyone who wants to change it is unpatriotic.

Fine so, I think that is a stupid view to hold but hey people are free to hold stupid views.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:04PM

markodaly wrote: »

So you view the constitution as something that is set in stone and anyone who wants to change it is unpatriotic.

Fine so, I think that is a stupid view to hold but hey people are free to hold stupid views.

No. I am saying that if you oppose it, then work to change it. I am suprised that with so many (it is claimed) opposed to a UI in the south that there has never been a hint that anyone wants to change that pretty substantial clause.
For instance, why was there not a word about dropping it altogether at the time of the GFA?
I'll let you work out yourself why.

overpronator · 07-01-2018 08:09PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Really? Us? Too immature?

Maybe......but at least we would never be mad enough to pull a stunt like Brexit, not even as a joke

Our government wouldnt tolerate a stunt like Brexit. We would vote vote and revote until remain got delivered.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:10PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No. I am saying that if you oppose it, then work to change it. I am suprised that with so many (it is claimed) opposed to a UI in the south that there has never been a hint that anyone wants to change that pretty substantial clause.
For instance, why was there not a word about dropping it altogether at the time of the GFA?
I'll let you work out yourself why.

Because most people don't care about a UI and go about their daily lives free from this nonsense. And again, it cannot be forced on us as we, the people have to vote on it. The constitution gives us that consent.

Again, patriotism doesn't come into it. You may as well argue that not liking black pudding makes you unpatriotic.

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2018 08:12PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No. I am saying that if you oppose it, then work to change it. I am suprised that with so many (it is claimed) opposed to a UI in the south that there has never been a hint that anyone wants to change that pretty substantial clause.
For instance, why was there not a word about dropping it altogether at the time of the GFA?
I'll let you work out yourself why.

because it has zero practical effect. why waste effort opposing something that is merely aspirational?

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:16PM

markodaly wrote: »

Because most people don't care about a UI and go about their daily lives free from this nonsense. And again, it cannot be forced on us as we, the people have to vote on it. The constitution gives us that consent.

Again, patriotism doesn't come into it. You may as well argue that not liking black pudding makes you unpatriotic.

The old 'most people' assertion again. But not a peep out of most people when the chance was there to change the constitution and every political party in the state supporting the idea of a UI.

You aren't making a pile of sense here.

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2018 08:18PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The old 'most people' assertion again. But not a peep out of most people when the chance was there to change the constitution and every political party in the state supporting the idea of a UI.

You aren't making a pile of sense here.

they may claim to support it but they aren't actually doing much about it. i think the phrase is "lip service".

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:19PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because it has zero practical effect. why waste effort opposing something that is merely aspirational?

Another question. Why have Unionists and all these people who oppose it in the south never advocated for a poll?
Surely it would end the speculation and what have they to lose if they so fervently believe it is 'aspirational'?

Interested on how that is spun in anti UI/Unionist circles.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:21PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they may claim to support it but they aren't actually doing much about it. i think the phrase is "lip service".

So, your party doesn't mention it for years and then when a UI comes the closest it has ever come you suddenly decide to start paying 'lip service' to the idea?

Again, that doesn't make much sense.
A politician starts making noise when they see support and votes usually.

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2018 08:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Another question. Why have Unionists and all these people who oppose it in the south never advocated for a poll?
Surely it would end the speculation and what have they to lose if they so fervently believe it is 'aspirational'?

Interested on how that is spun in anti UI/Unionist circles.

you're the one who wants to change the status quo. Why should the other side do the work for you?

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2018 08:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, your party doesn't mention it for years and then when a UI comes the closest it has ever come you suddenly decide to start paying 'lip service' to the idea?

Again, that doesn't make much sense.
A politician starts making noise when they see support and votes usually.

we are no closer to a UI. well except in the fevered dreams of sinn fein.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:26PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're the one who wants to change the status quo. Why should the other side do the work for you?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we are no closer to a UI. well except in the fevered dreams of sinn fein.

That the best you can do? As I said, it would be interesting to see the 'spin'. Very disappointing actually ono!
Imagine the political capital for Unionists if they won a border poll, but they seem curiously afraid to go there, strange, for people who so fervently believe that a UI is never going to happen.

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2018 08:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That the best you can do? As I said, it would be interesting to see the 'spin'. Very disappointing actually ono!
Imagine the political capital for Unionists if they won a border poll, but they seem curiously afraid to go there, strange, for people who so fervently believe that a UI is never going to happen.

typical of you. nothing smart to say so you resort to trying, and failing, to mock.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The old 'most people' assertion again. But not a peep out of most people when the chance was there to change the constitution and every political party in the state supporting the idea of a UI.

You aren't making a pile of sense here.

Because in 1998 the issue was about peace in the North. No idea how old you are but the madness of those 30 years of troubles puts paid to any sense of stupid patriotism. United Ireland or not.

Nothing wrong to aspire to it but again it will be up to the people as they have to consent and I would say most people would want to see the details of the plan. Any stupid romantic ideas about unification was put to bed when we see what Brexit negotiations actually looks like in reality.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:31PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

typical of you. nothing smart to say so you resort to trying, and failing, to mock.

eh? You gave trite answers to genuine questions.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:35PM

markodaly wrote: »

Because in 1998 the issue was about peace in the North. No idea how old you are but the madness of those 30 years of troubles puts paid to any sense of stupid patriotism. United Ireland or not.

Nothing wrong to aspire to it but again it will be up to the people as they have to consent and I would say most people would want to see the details of the plan. Any stupid romantic ideas about unification was put to bed when we see what Brexit negotiations actually looks like in reality.

Of course they will want to see a plan, and there will be one. The notion that there are people who will make this move for romantic notions alone is an old and tired one popularised mostly by those who oppose a UI for their own selfish reasons.

And it may yet be as a result of Brexit or a Scottish departure from the UK. Northern Ireland will not survive a hard Brexit for instance.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:36PM

wotzgoingon wrote: »

Anyway I'm out of this thread. I find boards.ie great for everything but I rarely post in AH or politics. As the amount of west brits here really surprises me. I wouldn't be surprised if half them are prods pretending to be Irish for what ever reason. I'm not one to judge how somebody gets their kicks but afaik no Irish person signs up to some britian first webpage and pretends to be british and posts anti british stuff.

You cannot be Irish and a Protestant? Interesting bigoted mindset there.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:38PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course they will want to see a plan, and there will be one. The notion that there are people who will make this move for romantic notions alone is an old and tired one popularised mostly by those who oppose a UI for their own selfish reasons.

And it may yet be as a result of Brexit or a Scottish departure from the UK. Northern Ireland will not survive a hard Brexit for instance.

You are sounding like Nigel Farage.

Brexit is a wake up call with people with romantic notions.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:44PM

markodaly wrote: »

You are sounding like Nigel Farage.

Brexit is a wake up call with people with romantic notions.

And we continue to popularise the notion.

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And we continue to popularise the notion.

Yes, Ireland needs more populist nonsense in form of snake oiled UKIP like crap about a United Ireland.

Its started already, you don't want a UI, you are essentially unpatriotic.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2018 08:53PM

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, Ireland needs more populist nonsense in form of snake oiled UKIP like crap about a United Ireland.

Its started already, you don't want a UI, you are essentially unpatriotic.

Before you run off with more notions...if you 'oppose' (which is to actively go against the constitutionally expressed 'will' of the people) you are being unpatriotic.

The snake oil in Irish politics was accepted by those who didn't oppose partition from the beginning imo.

wotzgoingon · 07-01-2018 08:54PM

markodaly wrote: »

You cannot be Irish and a Protestant? Interesting bigoted mindset there.

I'm 100% bigoted. People think the IRA were terrorists, well if I was involved in the leadership of the IRA back in their hay day people would have 100% a right to call them terrorists as I would have obliterated shankill road with bombs and as I said earlier I would have ordered someone to drive up and down shankill road with a fully automatic heavy machine gun and shoot at people walking down the street and go into known loyalists estates and do the same.

IRA were never terrorists they were volunteers and freedom fighters.

spakman · 07-01-2018 08:57PM

No, but automatically opposing a United Ireland makes you unpatriotic

markodaly · 07-01-2018 08:57PM

wotzgoingon wrote: »

I'm 100% bigoted. People think the IRA were terrorists, well if I was involved in the leadership of the IRA back in their hay day people would have 100% a right to call them terrorists as I would have obliterated shankill road with bombs and as I said earlier I would have ordered someone to drive up and down shankill road with a fully automatic heavy machine gun and shoot at people walking down the street and go into known loyalists estates and do the same.

IRA were never terrorists they were volunteers and freedom fighters.

Yes, that is lovely. Ethnic cleansing of the North brought to you by keyboard warriors.

Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

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