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Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis?

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    #122
    Vronsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    You are not in the real world at all.

    Do you seriously expect landlords to keep rents very low and not attempt to try cover their costs because the value of their building is slowly rising?

    Sure why don't Tesco sell below cost too. Sure their building is increasing in value eh.

    That's not the point I was making at all, I fully expect landlords to charge market rent. What I am saying is that just because market rent is below a mortgage payment does not automatically mean the landlord is making a loss. Despite the whinging of landlords, most will make a decent return once they sell up

    In fact, as long as the annual percentage rate of property prices rises is greater than mortgage interest rates, then property will be a profitable business even if it is left vacant.


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    #123
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    salonfire wrote: »
    Something wrong with private companies is there?

    How is the supply of your food and fuel, provided by private companies, working out for you? Any shortages of either recently?

    Nah it's the private companies that are charging me the highest transport and energy bills in Europe who are p*ssing me off, likewise the ones who are ruining my health system and gutting my public services while treating their workers like sh*t. They're the ones I've a problem with at present.


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    #124
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,149 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    What private company is ruining your health service and public services?


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    #125
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,149 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    This man (who after all should know considering the post he is leaving) has the balls to say what many are afraid to say publicly, that many are playing the system

    https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/housing-minister-claims-theres-no-evidence-of-people-gaming-the-housing-system-36457404.html


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    #126
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    LirW wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong, I don't know the area of said development in Kiltipper but I've briefly read up about it a few months ago

    Know the area myself and a few people that live there and it's fine. Some of the estates like Ellensborough are nice.


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    #127
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    That's not the point I was making at all, I fully expect landlords to charge market rent. What I am saying is that just because market rent is below a mortgage payment does not automatically mean the landlord is making a loss. Despite the whinging of landlords, most will make a decent return once they sell up

    Actually, yes it does mean that they are making a loss. That's the definition of making a loss. Not taking in enough money to cover outgoings means you are making a loss.

    Possibly making a profit upon selling up doesn't change the fact that some landlords (myself included) are making a loss on their property at the moment.
    In fact, as long as the annual percentage rate of property prices rises is greater than mortgage interest rates, then property will be a profitable business even if it is left vacant.

    It's only profitable if the property owner can afford to subsidise the mortgage from other funds.


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    #128
    Vronsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Actually, yes it does mean that they are making a loss. That's the definition of making a loss. Not taking in enough money to cover outgoings means you are making a loss.

    Possibly making a profit upon selling up doesn't change the fact that some landlords (myself included) are making a loss on their property at the moment.



    It's only profitable if the property owner can afford to subsidise the mortgage from other funds.
    I'm sorry but it's not loss making when the total return is greater than the investment.
    Not taking in enough earnings to cover your outgoings can mean a loss but not if you have illiquid assets that are appreciating in value. You are describing a cash flow issue, not a profitability one.

    Yes it's possible to lose money on property, but it is hard to do so in a rising market and having someone pay a decent contribution to the mortgage.


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    #129
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    come up with a counter arguament to this, which costs the government nothing, indeed would deliver more lpt and development levies, stamp duty etc!

    Simply allow higher density, allow cheaper to construct units, permabear has already says the development cost per sq m is double that of Germany, laughable as you can be damn sure the standards are higher in Germany! David Ehrlich head of IRES Reit also known as the godfather of REIT in Canada, has repeatedly commented on how outrageous construction costs are here and how inefficient it is to build due aspect apartments, have massive lift requirements etc...

    Whats the point in having these bull**** standards if no one can afford them, builders wont build with them and the vast majority of people dont want / cant afford them!

    We have the docklands with pathetic heights, the Irish Glass bottle site, which cost the exchequer nearly E450,000,000 in a bailout, littered with 4/5 floor buildings in the proposed new development plan for the area!

    As soon as it makes sense to start building en masse, what will happen all of a sudden? by extention, large amount of social and affordable units will be delivered as a result.

    So poster, please come back and tell me why these two beyond obvious things to change, that will also deliver a fortune to government coffers, arent being done? please counter argue this!
    Germany and Canada?

    Germany with their 250,000 homeless people and Canada with their 200,000 homeless people have the solutions yeah??

    Love the way people quote other countries methods as the solution, totally oblivious to the fact Ireland has one of the lowest homeless rates in the world.


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    #130
    NinetyTwoTeam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭NinetyTwoTeam


    A large portion of ours politicians are landlords, they are making big money off of the lack of supply, so will do very little to ease it.

    They know as well that many of their core voters don't care and probably consider the homeless are deserving of their predicament, due to alcohol/drug abuse, etc.

    To the eejit who said 'we'd have money for housing if ye paid your water charges', where did the money come from for John Tierney's 500k lump sum + pension, the pay rise TD's gave themselves? Where will the money come from for the new EU army? They have plenty to go round when it is going to them and their buddies, which is just where the water charge would have went, too.

    And if Apple paid even a third of what they owe in back tax we could sort this crisis out easily.

    I guess if we all paid water charges, we wouldn't have a trolley crisis in hospitals, either yeah? The government are letting this all happen, because it is profitable for some, and the people who are made miserable by it are powerless to do anything.


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    #131
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,777 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    NIMAN wrote: »
    This man (who after all should know considering the post he is leaving) has the balls to say what many are afraid to say publicly, that many are playing the system

    https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/housing-minister-claims-theres-no-evidence-of-people-gaming-the-housing-system-36457404.html

    The article which says 'there is no evidence to prove people are gaming the system'.


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    #132
    10000maniacs
    Registered Users Posts: 4,813 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Land prices in Dublin are at scales now unaffordable to revenue so any solution will involve private builders and buyers.
    Building council properties is a relic of the sixties and seventies.
    Water charge protests were an easier win because the protests were bolstered by the "never pay for anything" leftie brigade.
    Current property owners and council house dwellers won't be bothered to participate in any protest on this.


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    #133
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »
    A large portion of ours politicians are landlords, they are making big money off of the lack of supply, so will do very little to ease it.

    They know as well that many of their core voters don't care and probably consider the homeless are deserving of their predicament, due to alcohol/drug abuse, etc.

    To the eejit who said 'we'd have money for housing if ye paid your water charges', where did the money come from for John Tierney's 500k lump sum + pension, the pay rise TD's gave themselves? Where will the money come from for the new EU army? They have plenty to go round when it is going to them and their buddies, which is just where the water charge would have went, too.

    And if Apple paid even a third of what they owe in back tax we could sort this crisis out easily.

    I guess if we all paid water charges, we wouldn't have a trolley crisis in hospitals, either yeah? The government are letting this all happen, because it is profitable for some, and the people who are made miserable by it are powerless to do anything.

    What a load of absolutel horse ****.


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    #134
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,926 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    10000maniacs wrote:
    Land prices in Dublin are at scales now unaffordable to revenue so any solution will involve private builders and buyers. Building council properties is a relic of the sixties and seventies. Water charge protests were an easier win because the protests were bolstered by the "never pay for anything" leftie brigade. Current property owners and council house dwellers won't be bothered to participate in any protest on this.


    'The market' has failed, and we 're not the only country showing this problem, we have no choice but to return building public housing, unfortunately we could be years away from accepting that.


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    #135
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    'The market' has failed, and we 're not the only country showing this problem, we have no choice but to return building public housing, unfortunately we could be years away from accepting that.

    With what money?


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    #136
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,926 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Wheeliebin30 wrote:
    With what money?


    Great question, we need to re think how we create money, since the current process is rather 'magical' as it is, we should probably look at it to see if it could be used better, so it truly benefits society. A public banking system would be a good start, that surely could be used to create some of the 'money' required. I also particularly like the idea of a 'sovereign wealth fund', and partly accepting corporate taxation in stock options for this fund. I'm sure there's plenty of other interesting ideas out there, but first we must accept the failure of 'the market', sadly that may never happen.


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    #137
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,295 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Maybe if the state collected a reasonable amount of direct taxes from the lower paid (those seeking social housing for life) then the exchequer might be in a position to afford such largesse. Instead we get bleeding heart politicians hollowing out the tax base and then crying into their cornflakes about every crisis under the sun that the state can't afford to fix.


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    #138
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis? The only time the scum bags we elect to the dail are interested in us, is come election time. I have voted fg previously, I'm done with them. If they think a few euro a week decrease in USC is enough to keep people onside.

    These same people who will be paying e700 plus for an average bedroom in an average house in an average part of Dublin IF they can even secure a viewing!

    People protested about water, this scandal is off the wall in comparison. This situation is ruining lives and costing people a fortune, unlike water!

    The only time they ever budge here, i.e. Politicians is when pressure is put on them and they collapse like a house of cards, as their populist nature compels them to.

    Whatever ideological reason they have against solving the issues show a disgusting lack of empathy. I don't see what their issue is, their mates in the banks, the estate agents will be creaming it in with more building. More jobs, more lpt...

    It's taken them 3 years minimum into the crisis to acknowledge the fact that apartment building is prohibitively expensive and wait more years for action. 3 years! 3 years of misery for tens of thousand of people of not more. What's the problem? They are overpaid, do nothing but talk it seems to me.

    So there you go coppinger etc. Someone ill probably never agree with on economic policy etc, but organise a protest for this issue and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you!

    After the previous water crisis and protest and where that lead to. The government will do a pretty quick about turn this time! Particularly as an election could be held any time!

    If those who want to organise a protest against homelessness were genuinely interested in actually solving the issue and not in a protest of resist neo liberalisation, If it was genuine desire to do something with out any ideology it would be a different issue.


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    #139
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,149 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    The article which says 'there is no evidence to prove people are gaming the system'.

    No, thats the housing minister who said that.

    He is currently in Gov, there is no way he is going to say anything else, for fear of being dragged over the coals. I'm sure he privately knows his public statement is wrong though.

    Same way you won't find the Health Minister coming out and publicly saying that half the people in A&E's shouldn't be there, they should be waiting on their GP to open and book an appointment.


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    #140
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    There is an issue with housing, and it is partly cause by local authorities not building enough social housing with is a follow on from the crash but it is much more than that.

    The issue is most definitively being used by those with an ideological bent to further their own agenda there is also a lot of spin around the issue.


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    #141
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    FTA69 wrote: »
    Rent is through the roof in Cork and Dublin , we are being perpetually gouged by a class of landlords and we also spend a fortune every year paying rent allowance to private landlords as opposed to building sustainable social housing. In Ireland tenants have very little rights compared to Europe, paying through the nose for crap accommodation with short term leases.

    We're constantly told "we need the private sector to build" when in reality it's not in their interest to do so as high rents and high land value suits them down to the ground. Housing people should be a key priority for any government and it's far too important to be left to a cabal of developers to dictate (we all know what happened last time.)

    That is absolutely, 100% something worth campaigning for and the OP is spot on.

    So the "Landlord Class" (what ever they are) are actually the people who build houses ??

    Or do they run a shadowy cabal that prevents house building in Ireland ??


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    #142
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    baldbear wrote: »
    Vat & motor tax cover water charges. fianna Fail made sure of that

    Not that old chestnut again !!!!!!

    It has been shown over and over and over again to be nonsense but its still trotted out at absolute, quantifiable and certain fact..

    http://economic-incentives.blogspot.ie/2015/03/paying-twice-for-water-not-really.html


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    #143
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,856 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    With what money?

    What did the State build houses with in the 1920's, 30's etc. when the country was in a far, far worse situation than now?

    We can't do it now in a (supposedly) wealthy, developed country.


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    #144
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    What did the State build houses with in the 1920's, 30's etc. when the country was in a far, far worse situation than now?

    We can't do it now in a (supposedly) wealthy, developed country.

    No we can't unfortunately.

    There is a limited budget, where do we take the money from?

    Health?
    Welfare?
    Education?

    You tell me seems you know the answers.


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    #145
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,149 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Didn't the Gov say recently they plan to put €1.5bn into a rainy day fund next year?

    That would build plenty of houses if the will was there.


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    #146
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,926 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Didn't the Gov say recently they plan to put €1.5bn into a rainy day fund next year?

    That would build plenty of houses if the will was there.

    and maybe a pubic banking system could be used to put this rainy day fund into;)


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    #147
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Didn't the Gov say recently they plan to put €1.5bn into a rainy day fund next year?

    That would build plenty of houses if the will was there.

    They have already put 5 billion forward for social housing.

    As a hard working mortgage paying tax payer I think thats enough for now thanks.


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    #148
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    If planning was handled properly then there would be no crisis.


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    #149
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,856 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    No we can't unfortunately.

    There is a limited budget, where do we take the money from?

    Health?
    Welfare?
    Education?

    You tell me seems you know the answers.

    I don't know, they just made it happen. You can say what you like about the old rebels in early govts, and it wasn't a paradise by any stretch, but at least they weren't a self-serving bunch voting in pay rises for themselves.
    Even the much maligned oul Dev REFUSED several pay raises.

    As well as that, people that got these houses were fcuking glad of them, even if they were located in a place that they had to cycle miles to work, not cherry picking like now. And most of these developments are still standing and lived in today.


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    #150
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    I don't know, they just made it happen. You can say what you like about the old rebels in early govts, and it wasn't a paradise by any stretch, but at least they weren't a self-serving bunch voting in pay rises for themselves.
    Even the much maligned oul Dev REFUSED several pay raises.

    As well as that, people that got these houses were fcuking glad of them, even if they were located in a place that they had to cycle miles to work, not cherry picking like now.

    I definitely agree with your last point.


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    #151
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Society is divided into two camps

    First: Those who already own a home and/or property.

    Second: those who do not.

    It is in the economic interest of the first group that the second group continue to be landless.

    This increases the value of the first groups' assets and allows them to charge higher rents to the second group.

    Whatever a government does to alleviate the suffering of the second group, it's seen as punishing the hard work of the first group.

    The haves and the have nots. That's capitalism baby.

    My wife and I are in the second group. We dont want free anything. We've worked all all our lives and paid our taxes. We claim no social benefits.

    We are a necessary cog in the economy and we make the first group feel more wealthy.

    Remaining landless would not necessarily be a problem if we had guaranteed security of tenure in terms of our rental lease.

    Through various loopholes we can lose our home through no fault of our own. That's a stressful way to live and benefits the economy and the society in no way.


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