Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis?

andekwarhola

cantdecide wrote: »

My parents bought their house (a detached 4 bed bungalow) on the back of my dad's carpenter's wages (my mother was a stay at home mum of three kids) in the early 80s.

That was the 80s.

Irish people love some aspects of the current economy like high wages, looser credit and low interest rates but magically want house prices to remain static for 35 years, even when thousands of other well paid professionals are all chasing the same houses as them in a few Dublin postcodes.

BattleCorp

I'm a landlord so get your pitchforks ready.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I'm losing money on it.

I get rent of €750 pm. My mortgage is €1250 pm. Out of the €750 I've to pay insurance, repairs, maintenance etc. Oh yeah, I've to give the Government close to half my rent too in tax.

Yes, the house is slowly increasing in value but it's seriously tearing the arse out of me at the moment - financially speaking.

Don't be so quick to blame greedy landlords, we aren't all coining it in.

Idbatterim

Ill put things into perspective, my parents bought a run down house in dublin 14 for £16,000 back in 1989! that house today in the same state as they bought it, would cost €350,000+ now I reckon!

also unless you by some miracle have cheap rent in dublin, because you have been there for years and your landlord hasnt jacked it up, try saving for somewhere when you rent is E600 plus bills a month! 50% of your income thieved off you over the pittance of E34,500 as permabear correctly points out!

The situation is a total clusterf*ck!

I have seen plenty of proposed solutions to the crisis! Then again its only a crisis for a couple of hundred thousand!

Vronsky

Deleted User wrote: »

What determines an amateur landlord? You're probably describing any individual that bought a house. :rolleyes:

And how sure are you about this expectation of the mortgage definitely being paid by renters?

I charge 800 pm. My mortgage is 733.26pm, my life assurance is 23.12pm, and my mortgage cover is 66.52pm. So between my mortgage/insurance cost's I'm making a loss of 21.90 per month. That's not even taking into account the extra costs such as management fees, paying for repairs, moderate requests from the tenant for extra installations. etc.

Now I could increase the rent on my property to be more in line with others in Cork, and then, my tenant would seek somewhere cheaper to live and since she has a stable job with a family most other landlords will offer discounts to get her. So I charge more, lose out on a reliable tenant and get in single professionals instead who do far more in damages, who I have to chase for payments, etc.

Amateur landlord... Yup. I'm curious,Vronsky... Do you have a property and are you renting it out to anyone?



We no longer do. That dream scenario ended well over a decade ago for individual buyers. And doubling in value? lol. Now that's funny. It happened for my parents who bought in the 60s but for the rest of us buying within the last 10-20 years? Very few people would have been that lucky.


Quick edit: I'm sure there are individuals and companies making a killing out there on rents. I suspect it's happening in Dublin, and in very select areas of other cities... but I do get tired of this belief, that alll landlords are making decent money from renting. Many of us are scraping along hoping the market rises enough that we can sell and make a slight profit.

You are not making a loss, because you are ignoring two huge factors, you borrowed presumably 80% of the value of the house, so you only invested 20% of your own capital and you're forgetting that house prices have grown at about 6.2% on average (granted, in Dublin) over the past 25 years.

so we'll just have a look at your figures. €800pm is a mortgage of about €140000 for 25 years. I'll assume you're an investor and fronted €60k for the property. As the rent doesn't cover the full cost of the mortgage you pay an additional €21.90 for 12 months for 25 years. All in all you've invested €66,570k into this property. If I'm more aggressive with the calculation I'll say you lose half the rental income to taxation and say you have to invest 421.90 per month into the property, giving a total invested of €186,570.

However, the house has increased in value and even though the average increase has been 6.2% in Dublin over 25 years, I'll say that it rises by 2.0% (ECB inflation target) on average. This would give a house value of €329k after 25 years.
Thats a 1.75x return over 25 years. Its not stellar, but its not bad by a long shot either. Its certainly not losing money, its a 2.78 better return for your €60k initial investment if you could find something that would earn you 2% PA

Landlords can fuck off with their poor mouth tbh.

Mooooo

cantdecide wrote: »

You're not really saying anything now (as you hadn't in your previous post really). If you're saying that people are facing the same economical reality in 2018 that they did in the '70s and '80s then you're just showing how out of touch with reality you are.

My parents bought their house (a detached 4 bed bungalow) on the back of my dad's carpenter's wages (my mother was a stay at home mum of three kids) in the early 80s.

Could they do that today? The answer is absolutely not.

Try borrowing when interest rates were up on 20% sure some people did it and it made them but there was a lot of scrounging to do it, it broke others who couldn't get ahead of the interest. It's all relative times back them were as tough as now for a lot of people with regard to property. Reason now is the major over correction with 0 construction carried out during the recession and stupid planning not allow8ng high rise apartments for those who want to live within the city young professionals etc. Also this bollix of getting on the "ladder" at all costs,. Ideally should be enough rental supply for those starting out and then when further in in careers lives etc the home can be bought.

cantdecide

andekwarhola wrote: »

That was the 80s.

Irish people love some aspects of the current economy like high wages, looser credit and low interest rates but magically want house prices to remain static for 35 years, even when thousands of other well paid professionals are all chasing the same houses as them in a few Dublin postcodes.

You're either having me on or absolutely deluded if you believe there isn't rafts of people out there on unreasonably low wages. House prices have risen drastically higher than inflation and mortgage terms have doubled since my parents generation.

Bloody right things have changed since the 80s.

greenspurs

I don't go to mass, so therefore , I'm out ....

cantdecide

Mooooo wrote: »

Try borrowing when interest rates were up on 20%

It's academic. The people today equivalent to those who had no choice but to suck it up and get on the ladder would be flat out refused any mortgage at any interest rate. House prices were significantly lower pro rata.

Apples and oranges.

dxhound2005

The stats for Property Tax in 2016 show that 533,000 properties were in the hands of people with two or more properties. There must be some scope there for people to help the homeless, which would be more practical than going on a protest.

Also as an example only 0.4% of properties in Co Cavan were valued at over €300,000. 52% were under €100,000, and another 38% were between €100,000 and €150,000.

This would match the prices advertised for properties for sale. Stating the obvious, there is no housing crisis, nor any problem of affordability in the majority of the country.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/documents/statistics/lpt/local-property-tax-2016.pdf

Vronsky

Vronsky wrote: »

Landlords can fuck off with their poor mouth tbh.

Did I claim this "poor mouth"? :rolleyes:

Rather I pointed out that many landlords are not making these huge profits that many here seem to believe happening, nor is renting as profitable as many believe. (Not going to bother checking your calculations/guesstimations since such is based on thin air).

andekwarhola

cantdecide wrote: »

You're either having me on or absolutely deluded if you believe there isn't rafts of people out there on unreasonably low wages. House prices have risen drastically higher than inflation and mortgage terms have doubled since my parents generation.

Bloody right things have changed since the 80s.

I'm sure you're well aware that I didn't mean low wages don't exist.

The wages of people most likely to be buying houses in places like Dublin (professionals, civil servants, tradespeople etc) are relatively higher now and indeed the so called middle class is bigger (if indeed the categorisation is becoming obsolete).

And many of them are all trying to buy houses in the same areas (at low interest rates).

So these misty eyed reminisces about when two teachers could buy a red brick house in a nice part of Dublin are just that.

mariaalice

The lowest price new house on myhome is 285k https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/elder-heath-elder-heath-kiltipper-road-dublin-24/2963029

That is a 3bed A rated house in Dublin the most expensive area to by property. A two income couple on 30k each with a deposit of 28k could buy one of those house. It would cost 1,075 a month at 3% over 30 year. That does not seem expensive to me. The rental market does seem to be where the problem is.

previous user

I want to see the flames rise high over the city.

Your Face

mariaalice wrote: »

The lowest price new house on myhome is 285k https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/elder-heath-elder-heath-kiltipper-road-dublin-24/2963029

That is a 3bed A rated house in Dublin the most expensive area to by property. A two income couple on 30k each with a deposit of 28k could buy one of those house. It would cost 1,075 a month at 3% over 30 year. That does not seem expensive to me. The rental market does seem to be where the problem is.

It will more than likely sell for a lot more than that.

The listed prices are the starting prices nowadays.

LirW

mariaalice wrote: »

The lowest price new house on myhome is 285k https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/elder-heath-elder-heath-kiltipper-road-dublin-24/2963029

That is a 3bed A rated house in Dublin the most expensive area to by property. A two income couple on 30k each with a deposit of 28k could buy one of those house. It would cost 1,075 a month at 3% over 30 year. That does not seem expensive to me. The rental market does seem to be where the problem is.

I'm not 100% sure but I recall that the development borders another one that's rough.

There's Heathfield in Finglas that's even cheaper and the houses are supposed to be great but you'd be right next to a halting site and have nothing around in Walking distance. Passed it many times, it's a nice development in a very grim part of the city (and the outside walls facing the street have some obscene graffiti on it :pac: )

Vronsky

Deleted User wrote: »

Did I claim this "poor mouth"? :rolleyes:

Rather I pointed out that many landlords are not making these huge profits that many here seem to believe happening, nor is renting as profitable as many believe. (Not going to bother checking your calculations/guesstimations since such is based on thin air).

You won't address the post because I made the obvious point that you cannot discount leverage and rising property values when looking at the profitability of renting

It is still profitable to be a landlord and have to top up the mortgage by 50% as illustrated by my example. The ideas that unless rent is able to cover all the costs of a landlord for it to be profitable is wrong.

diomed

It must be too cold this week to sit on O'Connell Bridge.
And the Doyle is in recess (not the place in Galway).
Perhaps the working class heros are on a sun holiday (fact finding mission)?

cantdecide

mariaalice wrote: »

That is a 3bed A rated house in Dublin the most expensive area to by property. A two income couple on 30k each with a deposit of 28k could buy one of those house. It would cost 1,075 a month at 3% over 30 year. That does not seem expensive to me. The rental market does seem to be where the problem is.

3.5 times 60k is 210k + 28k is 238k. They'd need to be on 36.5k each or have the difference in cash, by my maths.

From what I understand, a couple living and working in Dublin earning 30-35k is fairly unlikely to have 28k without outside help. Consider then if they have kids or are thinking about having any soon.

99 Bortles of Beer

There are lots of valid arguments on how to fix the "housing crisis", and I've seen nearly all of them shot down here by equaly valid counter-arguments.

And while I've seen some of the more minute details debated, the only thing I've seen most people agree on is that we need to stop cramming everything into Dublin.

Brexit presented us with an opportuntiy to attract so many financial institutions over here, but I didn't see (or hear of) any strategy to promote anywhere other than Dublin to these companies.

Bank of America, Lloyds, Barclays, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan...... all have opened new locations or expanded existing ones. And all in Dublin. Smaller companies like XL, JB, Fragomen, Ogden Berndtson.... again, all chose to establish/expand in Dublin. Are there any incentives in place to attract companies to locate further inland than Dublin?

I work in Finance, and there's a hell of a lot of people I've spoken to who would love to move out of Dublin but the jobs just aren't anywhere else bar a handful in Cork, Limerick and Galway. I'm one of them. I like Dublin, but I'd love to be able to move somewhere further down the country if the work was there and pay a fraction of the price for a new build than I would here.

mariaalice

LirW wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure but I recall that the development borders another one that's rough.

There's Heathfield in Finglas that's even cheaper and the houses are supposed to be great but you'd be right next to a halting site and have nothing around in Walking distance. Passed it many times, it's a nice development in a very grim part of the city (and the outside walls facing the street have some obscene graffiti on it :pac: )

3 bed mid terraced house c. 102 sq m/c.1,098 sq ft (Type D) from €285,000
Its does say from.

While asking someone to live in a war zone would not be reasonable rejecting some where because it is beside some where rough is not reasonable if they need housing and its all they can afford. There is a certain element of its not fair that they cant afford in Terenure or Glasnevin going on with some people.

mariaalice

cantdecide wrote: »

3.5 times 60k is 210k + 28k is 238k. They'd need to be on 36.5k each or have the difference in cash, by my maths.

From what I understand, a couple living and working in Dublin earning 30-35k is fairly unlikely to have 28k without outside help. Consider then if they have kids or are thinking about having any soon.

It take sacrifice and years of saving to do it I am not saying its simple but it is doable and the real issue is the rental market.

LirW

Don't get me wrong, I don't know the area of said development in Kiltipper but I've briefly read up about it a few months ago.
The one in Finglas I know pretty well because when we started househunting we looked at a lot of houses there and while we're in no way snobs it is really really rough once you step outside of the development. Eventually we gave Finglas up because we were outpriced. The cheap houses there, while nice inside, are in no-go areas (the area just above Tolka Valley park).

You're making the biggest financial commitment of your life and if you get that wrong you might be f'd. New developments have the downside of not being established when all the people move in and one or two bad apples can have a massive inpact on an area. From that point of view I understand why people would be hesitant to buy somewhere that has a certain factor attached to it.

Vronsky

Vronsky wrote: »

You won't address the post because I made the obvious point that you cannot discount leverage and rising property values when looking at the profitability of renting

It is still profitable to be a landlord and have to top up the mortgage by 50% as illustrated by my example. The ideas that unless rent is able to cover all the costs of a landlord for it to be profitable is wrong.

Which I didn't object to. I objected to the belief that we are all making huge profits from renting or possibly by selling. We're not.

Idbatterim

There are lots of valid arguments on how to fix the "housing crisis", and I've seen nearly all of them shot down here by equaly valid counter-arguments.

come up with a counter arguament to this, which costs the government nothing, indeed would deliver more lpt and development levies, stamp duty etc!

Simply allow higher density, allow cheaper to construct units, permabear has already says the development cost per sq m is double that of Germany, laughable as you can be damn sure the standards are higher in Germany! David Ehrlich head of IRES Reit also known as the godfather of REIT in Canada, has repeatedly commented on how outrageous construction costs are here and how inefficient it is to build due aspect apartments, have massive lift requirements etc...

Whats the point in having these bull**** standards if no one can afford them, builders wont build with them and the vast majority of people dont want / cant afford them!

We have the docklands with pathetic heights, the Irish Glass bottle site, which cost the exchequer nearly E450,000,000 in a bailout, littered with 4/5 floor buildings in the proposed new development plan for the area!

As soon as it makes sense to start building en masse, what will happen all of a sudden? by extention, large amount of social and affordable units will be delivered as a result.

So poster, please come back and tell me why these two beyond obvious things to change, that will also deliver a fortune to government coffers, arent being done? please counter argue this!

Idbatterim

Housing crisis must be solved to avoid another crash
State’s passivity in addressing housing issues is economically and socially dangerous

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/housing-crisis-must-be-solved-to-avoid-another-crash-1.3343163

an article from the Irish times, like I said in the OP, what they are doing or not doing i.e. the government is a moral disgrace! How much is enough for these bast*rds? their few rental properties, outrageous pay and pension for the appalling job they do at running the country! they are parasites!

Ipso

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/housing-crisis-must-be-solved-to-avoid-another-crash-1.3343163

an article from the Irish times, like I said in the OP, what they are doing or not doing i.e. the government is a moral disgrace! How much is enough for these bast*rds? their few rental properties, outrageous pay and pension for the appalling job they do at running the country! they are parasites!

But yet they are expected to solve the housing crisis!

Ipso

Ipso wrote: »

But yet they are expected to solve the housing crisis!

Good point

salonfire

FTA69 wrote: »

Nah they would just have flogged the water system off to a private company and you'd be paying through the bollix so some vulture fund can make a massive profit. That's what's happened pretty much everywhere else.

Something wrong with private companies is there?

How is the supply of your food and fuel, provided by private companies, working out for you? Any shortages of either recently?

Idbatterim

Ipso wrote: »

But yet they are expected to solve the housing crisis!

yeah its so complex :rolleyes: make descisions and act! theyve had years to do it at this stage! You think it should be news to these morons that apartment buildings costs are massively prohibitive, that allowing small town densities on prime land, isnt exactly the best idea?! the dilemma for them is, they are caught between a rock and a hard place, in their own heads, it must suit them, but they cant be seen to be doing nothing either!

BattleCorp

Vronsky wrote: »

You won't address the post because I made the obvious point that you cannot discount leverage and rising property values when looking at the profitability of renting

It is still profitable to be a landlord and have to top up the mortgage by 50% as illustrated by my example. The ideas that unless rent is able to cover all the costs of a landlord for it to be profitable is wrong.

You are not in the real world at all.

Do you seriously expect landlords to keep rents very low and not attempt to try cover their costs because the value of their building is slowly rising?

Sure why don't Tesco sell below cost too. Sure their building is increasing in value eh.