Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis?

whisky_galore

RoboRat wrote: »

Money is not the solution
Highrises are not the solution
Giving free houses is not the solution

Decentralisation is part of a solution, there are many towns that are perfect for big businesses - they have the infrastructure and are on or very close to the main motorway network. If they were incentivised to go to them, it would make a lot more sense. Not to mention the extra jobs that would be generated locally. It would also mean there is not the same requirement for housing in Dublin if there are more opportunities outside of Dublin and people are not forced to the capital to get a job.

Incentivising employment either by more stringent criteria for social welfare, more spot checks or government sponsored childcare... this notion of 'I am better off on the dole' is wrong on so many levels. Social welfare is a safety net and should be treated as such.

Incentivising working from home, this is a massive bug bear for me. A lot of employees could easily work from home and they would have a better work/ life balance, less childcare costs, work harder, mean there is less traffic, less emissions, less accidents etc etc. If companies were given tax breaks, they would be inclined to offer it.

Having a proactive social housing department like in the UK, where as soon as you get notice to evict, you notify them so they can try and come to a solution before you are actually 'homeless' and if you wait until you are actually homeless, you are not a priority as if you're not bothered, why should the government.

Long and medium term planning was never a strong Irish suit, any sort of planning really.
And then you have the immovable monoliths that are any sort of state agencies...

Sebastian Dangerfield

There is no one answer, but surely dents can be made in the problem. Lots of students are packed into family homes around Universities all over the country. Surely the incentivisation of building student accomdation in key university hubs would get those houses back in circulation for families.

Seems so simple there must be a reason it hasnt been done. Id just like to see some creative solutions from our elected politicians - not just throwing money at it,or the endless summits with council heads that seem to have no effect.

Sebastian Dangerfield

zell12 wrote: »

But it would not be a donation to another family, it would be getting a fair, moral price - not the best price - for an asset. Further, voters would be angry if their asset price fell tomorrow.
Government policy is to increase housing values, admitted by Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan and also Michael Noonan - they suffered no electoral damage for these statements

If the seller of my next house had the same attitude, Id agree. But if I buy my house for X,sell it for X-20% and buy my next house for X, it is very much a donation. I would be giving away 20% of the value of my house as a gift.

Im sorry but I really dont get your point - which seems to be that all homeowners care about nothing but their property value at all costs,unless they give away money to prove otherwise

RoboRat

whisky_galore wrote: »

Long and medium term planning was never a strong Irish suit, any sort of planning really.
And then you have the immovable monoliths that are any sort of state agencies...

True on both counts, and to start something will cause upheaval and discontent but you have to start somewhere.

I once had a conversation with a director about installing an analytical solution to track customer behavior and was shut down because it would only be useful in a years time and that information would then be a year old then. This is not a unique view, especially in Ireland. You can't plan for the future without understanding your past, unless you have a time machine.

zell12

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

There is no one answer, but surely dents can be made in the problem. Lots of students are packed into family homes around Universities all over the country. Surely the incentivisation of building student accomdation in key university hubs would get those houses back in circulation for families.
Seems so simple there must be a reason it hasnt been done. Id just like to see some creative solutions from our elected politicians - not just throwing money at it,or the endless summits with council heads that seem to have no effect.

But our representatives object on behalf of their voting nimby population
Mícheal Martin fights plans to build student flats because
it is in the "heart of a predominantly elderly community" along with a "new generation of younger families".
"the proposition of accommodation for 350 students in this community would be a cause of great concern in the context of anti-social behaviour, noise pollution, traffic congestion" which had been "well documented as having major negative impacts on adjoining neighbourhoods".
Similar in Galway and elsewhere

Idbatterim

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

No I will not be part of any protest that allows people on the dole to basically own their own home for free while myself and my wife rent knowing that we will never own our own house as we are not able to save up for the deposit aswell as paying rent.

Its a total and utter disgrace! I agree with you. But if all it takes for those people to get an equivalent lotto windfall, is to do what they do, why wouldnt they! Again back to square one! who allows there people effectively be housed for nothing? Who creates this outrageous situation where one get housed for near nothing and the other group (which I am a part of, like yourself) get absolutely f**ked?

who creates the situation whereby builders are not building ? where the cost of constructing apartments is outrageous? where we have insane low building heights in areas appropriate for high rise? who controls all of the decisions making and tax rates that are causing this... :rolleyes:

I remember about a year or two ago thinking, there have always been people who have gamed the system or not gamed it, but getting far more from the state than most of us would agree with. The state create a sort of poverty trap, if you could call the welfare state here "poverty" because many hard workers are probably struggling more than some on welfare if they have their social housing and welfare payments. Back to my point, they have put people in such a predicament, it used to really annoy me, people "gaming" the system, having kids, to get their free house.

They have now created such an outrageous scenario, that that course of action now, would probably be advised for many people! No point in being a martyr in this country, where breaking your balls gets you nothing more than those who do nothing (this applies if you are in Dublin and dont have a mortgage / own property)...

fxotoole

Idbatterim wrote: »

Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis? The only time the scum bags we elect to the dail are interested in us, is come election time. I have voted fg previously, I'm done with them. If they think a few euro a week decrease in USC is enough to keep people onside.

These same people who will be paying e700 plus for an average bedroom in an average house in an average part of Dublin IF they can even secure a viewing!

People protested about water, this scandal is off the wall in comparison. This situation is ruining lives and costing people a fortune, unlike water!

The only time they ever budge here, i.e. Politicians is when pressure is put on them and they collapse like a house of cards, as their populist nature compels them to.

Whatever ideological reason they have against solving the issues show a disgusting lack of empathy. I don't see what their issue is, their mates in the banks, the estate agents will be creaming it in with more building. More jobs, more lpt...

It's taken them 3 years minimum into the crisis to acknowledge the fact that apartment building is prohibitively expensive and wait more years for action. 3 years! 3 years of misery for tens of thousand of people of not more. What's the problem? They are overpaid, do nothing but talk it seems to me.

So there you go coppinger etc. Someone ill probably never agree with on economic policy etc, but organise a protest for this issue and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you!

After the previous water crisis and protest and where that lead to. The government will do a pretty quick about turn this time! Particularly as an election could be held any time!

People don’t care unless it affects them financially. That’s the only reason there was such a groundswell of support for the anti-water charges protests

Idbatterim

zell12 wrote: »

But our representatives object on behalf of their voting nimby population
Mícheal Martin fights plans to build student flats because
it is in the "heart of a predominantly elderly community" along with a "new generation of younger families".
"the proposition of accommodation for 350 students in this community would be a cause of great concern in the context of anti-social behaviour, noise pollution, traffic congestion" which had been "well documented as having major negative impacts on adjoining neighbourhoods".
Similar in Galway and elsewhere

I absolutely get why they would nimby that! Martin is nearly obliged to object to it, whether he agrees with it or not. But who gets the final say? who are the experts? the council and ABP allegedly :rolleyes::eek:

Idbatterim

fxotoole wrote: »

People don’t care unless it affects them financially. That’s the only reason there was such a groundswell if support for the anti-water charges protests

I agree, but this farce i.e. being homeless or ripped off on rent or not being able to buy or having to live at home with parents or paying outrageous prices for property if you can afford a mortgage, is effecting hundreds of thousands of people! This is a major money situation we are talking, Major! unlike water, you are right with your point however. My point is though, that this crisis in Dublin and other "cities" to a lesser extent, is f**cking over a lot of people!

and my main gripe? there is no need for it. The solutions are simple, they just are not politically simple! Like I said, their lack of empathy disgusts me!

In this country, its not about fairness or who deserves what! It is simply based on bullying or who shouts the loudest!

zell12

Idbatterim wrote: »

I absolutely get why they would nimby that! Martin is nearly obliged to object to it, whether he agrees with it or not. But who gets the final say? who are the experts? the council and ABP allegedly :rolleyes::eek:

We, the voters, are the 'experts', who elect legislators who make the rules.
Housing legislation, planning guidelines, mandatory pebbledash... did not fall from the sky, but were invented by those appointed by our representatives.

Idbatterim

zell12 wrote: »

We, the voters, are the 'experts', who elect legislators who make the rules.
Housing legislation, planning guidelines, mandatory pebbledash... did not fall from the sky, but were invented by those appointed by our representatives.

not sure if this is sarcasm or not?

zell12

Idbatterim wrote: »

not sure if this is sarcasm or not?

Just a small bit.
But the housing crisis is a dynamite political issue, and who elects them?

RoboRat

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree, but this farce i.e. being homeless or ripped off on rent or not being able to buy or having to live at home with parents or paying outrageous prices for property if you can afford a mortgage, is effecting hundreds of thousands of people! This is a major money situation we are talking, Major! unlike water, you are right with your point however. My point is though, that this crisis in Dublin and other "cities" to a lesser extent, is f**cking over a lot of people!

and my main gripe? there is no need for it. The solutions are simple, they just are not politically simple! Like I said, their lack of empathy disgusts me!

In this country, its not about fairness or who deserves what! It is simply based on bullying or who shouts the loudest!

The problem lies with how our TD's are elected though. The local matters should be dealt with locally and the national problems on a national level.

As it stands, a TD is elected locally for a national position and if they neglect their locality, they are not voted in again. This leads to them working with one eye on their local constituents so they get the vote again and in many cases, it obstructs what needs to be done.

Local politics MUST be kept separate from national politics and the only way would be something similar to the US whereby you vote for the party position on a national level and not the local TD and their party.

RoboRat

RoboRat wrote: »

The problem lies with how our TD's are elected though. The local matters should be dealt with locally and the national problems on a national level.

As it stands, a TD is elected locally for a national position and if they neglect their locality, they are not voted in again. This leads to them working with one eye on their local constituents so they get the vote again and in many cases, it obstructs what needs to be done.

Local politics MUST be kept separate from national politics and the only way would be something similar to the US whereby you vote for the party position on a national level and not the local TD and their party.

Listening to Sean O’Rourke today and a Dublin TD was moaning about people coming to her constituency clinics terrified of becoming homeless. Is that really what we elect our TDS for? I’m afraid that I got neither her name or party but assume it was one of the lefts or SF.

Kermit.de.frog

What time is the mass at and where?

I love a good mass.

fxotoole

511 wrote: »

I'd rather have a protest about too many immigrants clogging up the housing list and inflating property prices/rents. Property prices are driven by demand and immigration creates plenty of it. When demand exceeds supply, property developers can auction off the house with plenty of people bidding for it, selling well above its asking price.

Down in New Zealand, the 3 biggest parties all campaigned on reducing immigration to ease the strain on the housing market and infrastructure.

Ah yes, blame the immigrants. Easy target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55sjaEDJ65k

zell12

fxotoole wrote: »

Ah yes, blame the immigrants. Easy target.

Well, immigration is a massive issue.
Everyone needs a place to live, there is not enough places, rents rise, pressures on transport, healthcare, education, etc.

Ireland is seen as a destination country. Our wages are higher than in most of the world.
This is from 2011. I'm sure it is much higher now, but wait, the Councils will no longer release the figures, as it'll create a public outcry, like in UK.
"For the first time, more than half those on the waiting list for social housing in Fingal County Council are non-Irish nationals. A third are from outside the EU,"

BattleCorp

Idbatterim wrote: »

and my main gripe? there is no need for it. The solutions are simple, they just are not politically simple! Like I said, their lack of empathy disgusts me!
!

If the solutions are so simple, what are they?

zell12

BattleCorp wrote: »

If the solutions are so simple, what are they?

Supply, Supply, Supply.

homerjay2005

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

They need to start building and need higher buildings. They also need to get tough on non-working people demanding houses in prime real estate areas.

building will not solve a whole pile - our population is rising by about 35k every year now. our net migration is rising - inward migration is on the rise (up 15% year on year) and outward migration is on the decrease (down 6% year on year). rural to urban movement is at record levels and we are now, by all intents and purposes, bursting at the seems at the moment in terms of capacity in some regions.

our economy is booming - jobs are being created as fast as ever before and naturally,cost of living goes up. social and personal responsibility of people is also a key factor.

The simple fact of the matter is, people are being left behind. people say "build more" but the reality is, those people being left behind will always be in that state as there will always be people "ahead" of them, ready to snap up the available housing - unfortunately money talks when it comes to property. the state can only build,own or purchase so much for what is a small portion of the population until the rest of the country steps up and says "why shouldnt i have a free house too?".

decentralization as was pointed out a couple of posts up, is one key aspect. a high speed rail network linking towns like Arklow, Mullingar, Dundalk etc etc to Dublin in the space of 20-30 mins would help.

there will always be homelessness - we have about 200 rough sleepers and in a population of 4.8 million, i think this is pretty damn good.

homerjay2005

zell12 wrote: »

Supply, Supply, Supply.

population growth,
economy growth.
planning objections

NIMAN

RocketRaccoon wrote: »

So homeless people should basically be given a free house while people like me and my wife have to pay extortionate rent while working 40 hours every week to try and keep a roof over our kids heads?

Believe me, I'm on your side.

I hate to see the system being played by 'homeless' people who (a) aren't actually homeless and (b) are so 'homeless' that they can turn down house offers cos they don't like the location.

All I'm saying is that if the Gov is putting €5bn into solving the homelessness 'crisis' then that should be more than enough to sort it out. Obviously there is a lot of wastage happening or planning and organisation needs attention.

BattleCorp

zell12 wrote: »

Supply, Supply, Supply.

How?
Who builds them?
Where will they be built?
Who pays for them?

It's not that simple.

Idbatterim

It is that bloody simple! There is zoned and serviced land around and in Dublin for colossal number of units. You dont think its a choice they make regarding planning that only allows low density? you dont think its a choice they make to only allow apartments that are prohibitively expensive to build or uneconomic?

they could get nama to finance the development, give the builder a margin, tender it out. Dirt cheap loan interest and no risk for the developer, they can have their margin. For anyone who has taken a look outside of boards over the past year in particular, there are endless simple solutions, written about in the papers etc, on other forums on boards. The problem is the will and the government acting against the will of many of its citizens...

zell12

zell12 wrote: »

Supply, Supply, Supply.

Not next to my gaff, ta very much!! Don’t want that sort on my doorstep.

zell12

NIMBY!

Dohnjoe

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Strangely enough, governments have the ability to just print the money they need without actually receiving it in taxes

They don't.

It didn't stop 1930s Germany and more recently Zimbabwe from trying though

KyussB

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They don't.

It didn't stop 1930s Germany and more recently Zimbabwe from trying though

Eh? You're thinking of 1920's Germany, during the Weimar Republic.

In the 1930's, Germany successfully did exactly that, to fund rearmament prior to WWII. To evade rearmament restrictions, they secretly printed money with steady (< 4%) inflation, and used it to build one of the most powerful armies of WWII.

FTA69

Ireland can't engage in quantative easing due to the fact it's in the eurozone.

KyussB

Ireland does have the ability to create something analogous to the MEFO bills in the above article, though, to ease (but not eliminate) funding difficulties...