Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis?

Idbatterim

Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis? The only time the scum bags we elect to the dail are interested in us, is come election time. I have voted fg previously, I'm done with them. If they think a few euro a week decrease in USC is enough to keep people onside.

These same people who will be paying e700 plus for an average bedroom in an average house in an average part of Dublin IF they can even secure a viewing!

People protested about water, this scandal is off the wall in comparison. This situation is ruining lives and costing people a fortune, unlike water!

The only time they ever budge here, i.e. Politicians is when pressure is put on them and they collapse like a house of cards, as their populist nature compels them to.

Whatever ideological reason they have against solving the issues show a disgusting lack of empathy. I don't see what their issue is, their mates in the banks, the estate agents will be creaming it in with more building. More jobs, more lpt...

It's taken them 3 years minimum into the crisis to acknowledge the fact that apartment building is prohibitively expensive and wait more years for action. 3 years! 3 years of misery for tens of thousand of people of not more. What's the problem? They are overpaid, do nothing but talk it seems to me.

So there you go coppinger etc. Someone ill probably never agree with on economic policy etc, but organise a protest for this issue and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you!

After the previous water crisis and protest and where that lead to. The government will do a pretty quick about turn this time! Particularly as an election could be held any time!

Your Face

I don't think protesting at mass will achieve anything.

TheQuietFella

Your Face wrote: »

I don't think protesting at mass will achieve anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC_abUffrcE

Dravokivich

The people done in by it, are working.

Idbatterim wrote: »

So there you go coppinger etc. Someone ill probably never agree with on economic policy etc, but organise a protest for this issue and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you!

She mobilised kids as billboards to carry poster boards for a bye-election a few years back. I don't think she's all that much to be honest.

SEPT 23 1989

could we not have three days of rage instead?

Red_Wake

It would certainly show how few people actually give a **** about the fictional housing crisis.

soups05

there is a small flaw in your thinking when it comes to a protest. bear with me a moment while i explain. I bought my house in 06, paid 130k for it, recession hit and it was worth maybe 30K. I still had to pay the mortgage of 130 of course. At the present time i have no earthly idea what it's worth, but lets say it's back to 130K. I could sell up, clear mortgage and have some left over, but what am i gonna do with it? not enough to buy another house, not enough to last too long renting, so I stay where I am.

Now if a protest where to take place, govt decided to throw money at the problem, built 20K house this year, then the demand will not be there, my house will lose value due to lack of demand, and ultimately i am trapped with a house i cant sell despite having a range of cheaper houses to chose from. why would i waste my time protesting to help those who don't have a house? i got mine so fk you.

please note: I am not really of this viewpoint, my own son is trying to get on the ladder at the moment and i feel for him. I am just trying to point out the attitude of many home owners in the country. why would they protest if it leads to them losing out in the long run ( in their view)

whisky_galore

Homeowners don't care, their house will fall in value.

Politicians don't care, the homeless/struggling tenant vote doesn't count.

The private sector that were supposed to come to the rescue won't lift a shovel unless there's something in it for them.

The private landlord and the faceless letting agencies aren't going to come to the rescue either, it's the market, baby. Suck it up.

The ordinary Joe Soap workers are too busy trying to keep their show on the road instead of protesting.

Irish Water was an easy win. IW lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Once the public could smell that the whole shambles was unworkable (unlike the property tax, Revenue weren't involved) and they could overturn the charges that was that.
This isn't so easy, too many snouts in the trough.

astrofool

After the recession, public opinion was vehemently against developers and landlords, and lots of laws and taxes were passed that affected them directly. It was also proclaimed that lots of the developments in urban areas would have to be knocked down and would never get used, and we had decades worth of housing stock.

As a result, developers stopped building, landlords started getting out of the business due to low (and still low) returns.

Now you want to mobilize the public to do what exactly? Unless they are qualified tradesmen and building houses themselves, they'll probably create even worse housing conditions to "solve" the crisis as politicians jump on the bandwagon and create a bunch of even stupider laws. Building good sustainable houses takes time, and it is happening at the moment, but it will probably be 18 months before it takes effect (by which time the next government will try to claim credit, even though they did effectively nothing). Next time the market collapses, maybe don't overshoot on the hyperbolae and assume that at some point growth will return and demand will increase again, and make laws that encourage such endeavors.

We also need to stop calling people with a roof over their head "homeless", they're not. The argument should be about giving them better homes to raise their quality of life from a low starting point, or they putting in the effort to afford their own better homes. Homeless people live on the street, and their plight is more a problem with lack of facilities and care for the mentally ill and addicted than to do with housing (and the one thing the public protests the most is a homeless shelter being created anywhere near where they live).

bullvine

They majority of people dont give a flying fook about it. Why would they? it doesn't affect them.

andekwarhola

There won't be a protest because most people aren't altruistic, they just think of what benefits themselves at a given time.

So when the market collapses again, most of the renters here that are currently looking to storm the winter palace will revert back to sharing tips on how to lowball their landlords on rent and giving each other high fives.

Protest what? I'm not in Ireland so I don't know the ins and outs, but are you trying to organise a protest because housing is expensive?

Wanderer78

'The market, the market'! Blah blah blah blah!

baldbear

Everyone should get a free house. This government is a disgrace.

MentalMario

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

piplip87

What we need

1) to do is find the scammers from this crisis. There are people who declare themselves homeless just to get bumped up the list.
2) Anybody who refuses a home because of location should be made pay for their own emergency accommodation.
3) Use NAMA more, thousands of empty units throughout the country. If it means moving people out if Dublin so be it. If you are long term unemployed you have no business living in the city.
4) Tax breaks for developers to get building again for the private market, we cannot solve the crisis without them.

brightspark

There are too many long term unemployed taking up the limited amount of space in cities etc.

Supply and demand will always mean that in the event of a limited supply prices will rise, only by reducing the numbers living in the cities will rents/prices fall to levels where workers can afford them again.

piplip87

piplip87 wrote: »

What we need

1) to do is find the scammers from this crisis. There are people who declare themselves homeless just to get bumped up the list.
2) Anybody who refuses a home because of location should be made pay for their own emergency accommodation.
3) Use NAMA more, thousands of empty units throughout the country. If it means moving people out if Dublin so be it. If you are long term unemployed you have no business living in the city.
4) Tax breaks for developers to get building again for the private market, we cannot solve the crisis without them.

5) Highrises

D3V!L

Thread TLDR = give me a free house because I deserve one

Wanderer78

MentalMario wrote:

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

Strangely enough, governments have the ability to just print the money they need without actually receiving it in taxes

whisky_galore

MentalMario wrote: »

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

hawkelady

What the op wants is for houses to be given to people who can't afford houses and he wants everyone to start marching for it ..... even the people who work hard to pay their own mortgage !!
Welcome to Ireland 2018

baldbear

MentalMario wrote: »

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

Vat & motor tax cover water charges. fianna Fail made sure of that

jiltloop

astrofool wrote: »

As a result, developers stopped building, landlords started getting out of the business due to low (and still low) returns.

Can you explain how you think returns for landlords could possibly be low at the moment when rents are at an all time high?

ted1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

MentalMario wrote:

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

Strangely enough, governments have the ability to just print the money they need without actually receiving it in taxes

Not governments who are part of a single European currency

WoollyRedHat

Surprise surprise that a number of people have jumped the gun and inferred that people want a free house when I don't see that implied in the orginal post. Primary School level debating to be fair.

Wanderer78

ted1 wrote:

Not governments who are part of a single European currency

Correct, so maybe we need to tackle this issue, as it seems like our current approach of allowing banks to print the majority of our money is failing

FTA69

Rent is through the roof in Cork and Dublin , we are being perpetually gouged by a class of landlords and we also spend a fortune every year paying rent allowance to private landlords as opposed to building sustainable social housing. In Ireland tenants have very little rights compared to Europe, paying through the nose for crap accommodation with short term leases.

We're constantly told "we need the private sector to build" when in reality it's not in their interest to do so as high rents and high land value suits them down to the ground. Housing people should be a key priority for any government and it's far too important to be left to a cabal of developers to dictate (we all know what happened last time.)

That is absolutely, 100% something worth campaigning for and the OP is spot on.

FTA69

MentalMario wrote: »

Maybe if ye paid your water charges, the government would have money to ease the housing crisis...

Nah they would just have flogged the water system off to a private company and you'd be paying through the bollix so some vulture fund can make a massive profit. That's what's happened pretty much everywhere else.

al87987

I find that people of a certain vintage, say over 35, don't care about this issue as the continuing crisis means they're becoming artificially wealthier ie. There house is worth a lot more money, but if they actually chose to sell they would have to reinvest in an inflated market and wouldn't have much money left.

This generation are being screwed left right and centre in terms of real income and housing. However one minor silver lining is that the next generation are set to become the biggest inheritors of wealth and housing ever but the major drawback to that is the fact that most of these inheritances will pass down to people when they're in their 60's because of the increased life expectancy of their parents.

Fann Linn

hawkelady wrote: »

What the op wants is for houses to be given to people who can't afford houses and he wants everyone to start marching for it ..... even the people who work hard to pay their own mortgage !!
Welcome to Ireland 2018

I actually think the op didn't ask for any of that. He asked that the govt address the housing crisis.

For the record I've four kids all in full time employment who cannot afford a house as there are too few around.
There is a housing crisis.

cbreeze

It would be interesting to find out how many TDs, Senators, MEPs and Councillors are landlords, which might explain the lack of motivation to enable proper rent controls. They have to fill in a declaration to the Standards in Public Office every year, so there may be information there.

cantdecide

whisky_galore wrote: »

...too many snouts in the trough.

/thread

piplip87 wrote: »

What we need

1) to do is find the scammers from this crisis. There are people who declare themselves homeless just to get bumped up the list.
2) Anybody who refuses a home because of location should be made pay for their own emergency accommodation.
3) Use NAMA more, thousands of empty units throughout the country. If it means moving people out if Dublin so be it. If you are long term unemployed you have no business living in the city.
4) Tax breaks for developers to get building again for the private market, we cannot solve the crisis without them.

I've been wondering if it's possible to have PPP based on NAMA providing land to developers on a long term leasehold basis.

FTA69

al87987 wrote: »

I find that people of a certain vintage, say over 35, don't care about this issue as the continuing crisis means they're becoming artificially wealthier ie. There house is worth a lot more money, but if they actually chose to sell they would have to reinvest in an inflated market and wouldn't have much money left.

This generation are being screwed left right and centre in terms of real income and housing. However one minor silver lining is that the next generation are set to become the biggest inheritors of wealth and housing ever but the major drawback to that is the fact that most of these inheritances will pass down to people when they're in their 60's because of the increased life expectancy of their parents.

I agree with this largely. It's galling to be smugly told "there is no housing crisis" by someone who bought a gaff in a rural area or whatever when you're caught spunking over half your income to live in a shoebox making some landlord a fortune. Young people working in our cities are being royally shafted and these are the people we need working in our urban areas to fuel our economy.

'Move to Leitrim' is hardly a solution to that.

FTA69

cbreeze wrote: »

It would be interesting to find out how many TDs, Senators, MEPs and Councillors are landlords, which might explain the lack of motivation to enable proper rent controls. They have to fill in a declaration to the Standards in Public Office every year, so there may be information there.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-heads-the-landlord-list-as-tds-cash-in-with-property-cwn5j9sv3

A quarter of the f*ckers are, with FG leading the charge. Quelle surprise.

hawkelady

cbreeze wrote: »

It would be interesting to find out how many TDs, Senators, MEPs and Councillors are landlords, which might explain the lack of motivation to enable proper rent controls. They have to fill in a declaration to the Standards in Public Office every year, so there may be information there.

You know there are RPZ's in place that allows a max of 4% increase .. there is legislation in place so why would you think the government ministers/tds who are landlords are lacking motivation in such things

Leslie91

Homelessness and the fact that those in power can without question (1) increase their salaries, (2) hire as many so called advisers as they like on outrageous money and (3) enjoy lavish early pensions and golden handshakes should be marched on.

I'll even take time off work to march on these scandals.

Idbatterim

Dravokivich wrote: »

The people done in by it, are working.



She mobilised kids as billboards to carry poster boards for a bye-election a few years back. I don't think she's all that much to be honest.

I totally agree its the people working that are done in by it! I would reserve the largest amount of sympathy for them. Many not earning much, yet still over the threshold to qualify for social housing etc!

FG will be looking for these people votes, giving them a pittance, while doing nothing to solve the crisis and costing these same people a fortune!

whisky_galore

FTA69 wrote: »

Young people working in our cities are being royally shafted and these are the people we need working in our urban areas to fuel our economy.

This is storing up trouble down the line, what's the point in studying or working here if places are hard to come by and those that do are unaffordable?

Also, the so-called 'family hubs' can't be great from a social point of view, long-term.
Wouldn't be surprised if kids growing up in conditions like that could turn to things other than earning an honest living.

cantdecide

al87987 wrote: »

I find that people of a certain vintage, say over 35, don't care about this issue as the continuing crisis means they're becoming artificially wealthier ie.

I'm 36 and set myself a 5 year plan about 5 years ago which was supposed to conclude with me putting a roof over my head. 5 years have passed and not only am I no closer in terms of earnings, I'm even further away now because of the housing crisis. I say that people my age and older who have been suffering because of the strange new world (that's here to stay) that we find ourselves in will be the first to protest. I know I'd be there if I could.

I've always said I'm economically stuck at age 25 but the major difference is that 25 year olds today have a decade on me. The future that I see for younger generations is that there is a good future for young people who have the foresight to make better decisions (and find themselves in relationships with someone of the same ilk as double incomes are necessary to get anywhere for most ordinary people) but our society will punish those that aren't as shrewd. Gone forever are the days where a blue collar worker can raise a family and have a reasonable life on the back of a reasonable wage. You will have to be an above average person in order to have what older generations would regard as an average life.

511

I'd rather have a protest about too many immigrants clogging up the housing list and inflating property prices/rents. Property prices are driven by demand and immigration creates plenty of it. When demand exceeds supply, property developers can auction off the house with plenty of people bidding for it, selling well above its asking price.

Down in New Zealand, the 3 biggest parties all campaigned on reducing immigration to ease the strain on the housing market and infrastructure.

splinter65

Idbatterim wrote: »

Is it time for mass protest at the housing crisis? The only time the scum bags we elect to the dail are interested in us, is come election time. I have voted fg previously, I'm done with them. If they think a few euro a week decrease in USC is enough to keep people onside.

These same people who will be paying e700 plus for an average bedroom in an average house in an average part of Dublin IF they can even secure a viewing!

People protested about water, this scandal is off the wall in comparison. This situation is ruining lives and costing people a fortune, unlike water!

The only time they ever budge here, i.e. Politicians is when pressure is put on them and they collapse like a house of cards, as their populist nature compels them to.

Whatever ideological reason they have against solving the issues show a disgusting lack of empathy. I don't see what their issue is, their mates in the banks, the estate agents will be creaming it in with more building. More jobs, more lpt...

It's taken them 3 years minimum into the crisis to acknowledge the fact that apartment building is prohibitively expensive and wait more years for action. 3 years! 3 years of misery for tens of thousand of people of not more. What's the problem? They are overpaid, do nothing but talk it seems to me.

So there you go coppinger etc. Someone ill probably never agree with on economic policy etc, but organise a protest for this issue and I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you!

After the previous water crisis and protest and where that lead to. The government will do a pretty quick about turn this time! Particularly as an election could be held any time!

What crisis?

Idbatterim

hawkelady wrote: »

What the op wants is for houses to be given to people who can't afford houses and he wants everyone to start marching for it ..... even the people who work hard to pay their own mortgage !!
Welcome to Ireland 2018

LOL! what I want is the government to allow higher density and actually make it worthwhile for builders to build, by reducing the ridiculous guidelines around apartments, what will that cost? nothing! nothing!

people trying to blame the issue on private developers who are out to make a profit and do what makes business sense like we all do! this is 100% of the governments making!

Builders start building in large amount and guess what? we get far more social housing! This isnt a money issue, this is an issue they obviously are ideologically opposed to.

Of course people here think I am referring just to the actual homeless without a roof over their head or those living out of hotels! No, I am also referring to people in Dublin being done on rent and with no chance of affording their own place, even earning 50k a year plus!

I read an article in the times the other day saying that a one bed apartment in some area of dublin with the current build and land price, would take a single earner to be on a minimum income of €87,000 a year to be able to afford the cheapest apartment in the the development!

Idbatterim

splinter65 wrote: »

What crisis?

of course its not a crisis for hundreds of thousands. But it is for hundreds of thousands of others! let me guess, you arent paying astronomical rent or homeless?

splinter65

D3V!L wrote: »

Thread TLDR = give me a free house because I deserve one

No. Because I want one. I see other people have houses and I want one.
I don’t want to hear about how they worked and saved for their house. I want one now so give it to me.

Idbatterim

511 wrote: »

I'd rather have a protest about too many immigrants clogging up the housing list and inflating property prices/rents. Property prices are driven by demand and immigration creates plenty of it. When demand exceeds supply, property developers can auction off the house with plenty of people bidding for it, selling well above its asking price.

Down in New Zealand, the 3 biggest parties all campaigned on reducing immigration to ease the strain on the housing market and infrastructure.

dont expect that here! you think any politician would even propose that here? go with the tide is their motto!

cantdecide

splinter65 wrote: »

What crisis?

I normally hate when people reply using a single rolleyes smilie...

The polite answer is if you're one of the enormous number of people who isn't suffering and doesn't see people suffering because of the lack of accommodation, then you should be thankful. Congratulations for finding yourself sorted. That's not the world that hundreds of thousands of people find themselves in today.

splinter65 wrote: »

No. Because I want one. I see other people have houses and I want one.
I don’t want to hear about how they worked and saved for their house. I want one now so give it to me.

The point is that the world so many thousands find themselves in today, no amount of working or saving is sufficient. Earnings are too low. Contract employment being the only available to many people and housing costs in rent and purchase prices are gone to hell...

Jaysus read the papers will ya.

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Strangely enough, governments have the ability to just print the money they need without actually receiving it in taxes

Can’t do that in the EU also the more money you print the less value it has

myshirt

You have to think through it from a practical and logical perspective.

There are more people with houses than there are without houses. Those with houses thus hold more power than those without houses. Old versus young perhaps. Plus homeless people don't vote remember, homeless people don't complain, how can they meaningfully mobilise when day in day out it is debilitating stress, hoping to make it to tomorrow, and praying that God answers. Homeless kids don't make much noise also, they just play with their superman and batman toys, dreaming that someday just like Superman helps people, maybe someone will come and rescue them or give a sh-t about them. But unfortunately, they won't.

Those with influence like to see house prices go up, that's how family wealth is held in Ireland. Those with mortgages on their balance sheet (i.e the banks) also like to see house prices go up. The financial system also likes to see more healthy balance sheets. Overall that benefits everyone in the long run, but only if one thing exists. And that is taxing it, and taxing unearned wealth / passive income.

Irish people don't like the idea of removing the PPR exemption, and don't like the idea of paying CAT / reducing the thresholds the way a cold hard analysis would dictate. That's the politics of it. We care about things, but as long as someone else pays for it or its not in our backyard.

Baby boomers often give out about Millennials wanting everything now and without putting in he work, when the reality is it's completely the opposite way around. Baby boomers lived in a fantasy where they overestimated the link between their effort and their own financial position, patting themselves on the back. They fail to realise the impact of economic decisions, they fail to realise that State borrowing is taxation delayed, they fail to realise who pays the bill. If it was true, then a man in the back arse of Timbuktu could be a millionaire by pure effort alone. The reality is it's not true. It's not all you. Stop patting yourself on the back. It's most prominent in the public service and in the transport sector where they are clinging on to exorbitant wages, pensions, etc etc that they never ever deserved. The impact of jobbridge, youth unemployment and a pensions bomb are still to filter through. Home ownership or stable rental housing are a pipe dream for young people, while these f#ckers sail off into the sun smoking cigars and eating lobster.

TLDR: Until we accept that baby boomers need to be taxed up to the bollix and not permitted to pass on wealth, we won't ever have social equality of opportunity to solve these housing issues.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote: »

Can’t do that in the EU also the more money you print the less value it has

hmmm, qe is an interesting idea then and working well for the majority!

splinter65

cantdecide wrote: »

I normally hate when people reply using a single rolleyes smilie...

The polite answer is if you're one of the enormous number of people who isn't suffering and doesn't see people suffering because of the lack of accommodation, then you should be thankful. Congratulations for finding yourself sorted. That's not the world that hundreds of thousands of people find themselves in today.

I see lots of people sleeping rough because there’s not enough addiction services or mental health facilities.
I see lots of people in hotels because the conditions under which they will accept state funded housing cannot be met by the state.
I see CEOs of housing charities receiving huge salaries and using the media to push the notion that there is a housing emergency in order to stay on the gravy train as long as they can.
I see people taking no personal responsibilty whatsoever when it comes to providing for themselves and the children they’ve brought into the world.
I see left wing parties and independents suggesting that my 20 year old daughter living at home with me is actually homeless because the state have not provided a house for her to live in.
In fact these politicians are suggesting that anyone who doesn’t own a house outright, including myself, is, in fact, homeless.
If this is the crisis you are referring to then you really don’t want to go to some less fortunate parts of the world.