#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

One eyed Jack · 22-10-2017 01:58PM

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Men are the biggest threat to everyone actually. The vast majority of the perpetrators and victims of violent and sexual* crime are men. But if you're not one of those perpetrators then there's no need to take that statement of fact personally.

Women are the biggest threat to babies IIRC. Women commit the most emotional abuse, by far. Women, God help us, are responsible for the Kardashians being famous.

See how I can say those things and it doesn't mean that I'm saying that any individual woman on this thread is an emotionally abusive infanticide enthusiast who rushes out to buy all the new Kardashian crap?

*men being the biggest perpetrators there, not victims.

I do, see what you're saying, and that's why I was saying earlier that I can't take the metoo hashtag stuff seriously. I don't take it personally when my friends say things like "all men are bastards" either, I don't take it personally when my friend eyeballs a guy and says "I'd rape him!", because I know her well enough to know that I'm not meant to take that seriously. But a complete stranger on the internet posts a metoo hashtag and expects to be taken seriously?

I just can't empathise with that because I have nothing to base that empathy on other than... a hashtag? It's just not something I can relate to. It's not like they're standing or sitting in front of me saying it, which would at least allow me to relate to them on some level, I'd at least then have some understanding of where they were coming from because I'd understand them better as a person and I would understand their experience better and they would understand too that I don't expect them to be able to give me a coherent and formal account of their experience.

I think the promotion of this idea that "men don't listen" is unfair not just to men, but it's also unfair to women because it's perpetuating a myth that there's no point in even trying. It does a disservice to men who actually do take the women and young girls in their lives seriously, and do actually want to protect them, and it does a disservice to women because it prevents them from finding out that there are men who do take them seriously.

Thankfully as I said though, there are only a small amount of people in society who want to perpetuate these types of gender myths, and the vast majority of women in my experience at least don't need to be told that men will take them seriously. They know as much already from an early age that they are listened to, and they will be believed.

anewme · 22-10-2017 02:08PM

PCeeeee wrote: »

Anewme, perhaps you are right. Maybe the metoo thing will help people. I don't know. There are elements to it that make me uncomfortable.

Chief among them is this. If a crime has been committed then it needs to be reported to the police. That is the way the system works. No report means no investigation means no conviction and punishment. The system does not work in the absence of reporting.

And that is the really worrying part of it.

I m not sure what help "me too "is either unless people are prepared to speak out.

But I do believe that there are a lot of assaults and incidents not reported or even in some cases recognised or acknowledged as assaults and still people (it's evident even on this thread) who will talk down people's experiences and make them feel like they are over reacting.

We've done a bit of work in this area personally as a family member grew up in an industrial school and you'd be amazed how these situations and codes of silence play out. It's a mine field.

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 02:11PM

The point of #metoo is to create awareness.

To make everyone realise how common sexual harassment is.

Harassment comes in many forms; they are not all as extreme as rape. They are not always physical acts. They’re threats, intimidations, peer pressure, guilt. Prove those.

I’ve had my share of experiences but I’ve never told anyone, because they happened on nights out. When men were too physical and who only took no for an answer on the 20th occasion and when I had to be quite forceful.

I didn’t tell anyone because I just wanted to forget about it. Move on and enjoy the night. Besides, they were strangers and they disappeared into the crowd. So there was no one to accuse. If every woman reported incidences like that the police would have their hands full.

The only way to stop it is to educate your children (boys and girls) about how to treat others, not just as kids but as teenagers too.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 02:21PM

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

And so if there's something like, I don't know, a highly visible social media campaign off the back of one of the biggest news stories of the year where women talk about their experiences in a way men can't possibly miss the response would be "oh my god, thanks for telling me, I never realised because you didn't talk about it"?

and/or "if this is so endemic, why the hell wasn't this talked about before?", because apparently women haven't, because there "was no point". Or maybe actually we have been hearing this for years. The whole "1 in 4" stat(most corrupt "study" ever), the talk about rape culture, toxic masculinity etc etc.

Now most non morons wouldn't say "all men are responsible", but there are enough morons in this world. I've read a fair few suggesting that if every woman around you has been sexually abused/harrased, then every man you know around you has likely sexually abused/harrased a woman and again it's every man's responsibility to stop this. The same bulls1t campaign including one run in Ireland that men must stop rapists. That men, yes all men are responsible, even the ones who pledge support, because they're acknowledging that.

And I say fcuk that noise, I've had enough at this stage of the moral outrage and polarisation fuelled by social media and short attention spans and in many the need for attention. And yes that's a thing. Anyone who's been on Arsebook a wet week will be able to point to the notice boxes among their "friends". I've most certainly had my bloody fill of men™ being seen as responsible for all the world's ills, while women™ are seen as perpetual victims. Hell, that being a victim is somehow laudable in of itself. I'm sick to the back teeth of idiocy like this hashtag lumping women who have been raped in with women who have been catcalled. That's beyond moronic and cheapens it even further and people, men and women see this and beyond the surface will zone it out after a couple of weeks(if that).

And what will it achieve? Sweet eff all. Just "being listened to" on twitter might make some victims feel better because they're not alone and yes that's not to be sniffed at and it might make a few guys who catcall stop and think, but it will do nothing to stop the actual predators, the Weinstiens of this world. Predators that are almost certainly still working and abusing in Hollywood and fashion and music. Predators are different. No amount of shame will stop them. They have to be reported, caught and the key thrown away.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 02:22PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

So you think women should tell men about their sexual harassment but get annoyed when they do that on social media?

Frankly yes.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 02:23PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Thankfully as I said though, there are only a small amount of people in society who want to perpetuate these types of gender myths, and the vast majority of women in my experience at least don't need to be told that men will take them seriously. They know as much already from an early age that they are listened to, and they will be believed.

I agree 100% J, but apparently there are enough who don't.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 02:24PM

Im male and have a male friend I was discussing harassment with about a year ago. He didn't believe harassment of women was a serious problem. I started to read him the comments below an article in the guardian about women's experiences of harassment on public transport. He was disgusted but didn't believe it happened THAT often. He got a new girlfriend. Discussed it with her. She told him all her experiences. He was disgusted. Decided it was a dublin thing and if any of the stuff that happened to her happened down the country the perpetrator would be beaten. This is a perfectly nice guy but it's a losing battle trying to get him to believe how widespread this stuff is.

The gf isn't a strident feminist either. The attitude among her and her female friends is if you get super drunk at a party something bad will happen and its your own responsibility.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 02:25PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

Well you can't have everything you want ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

One eyed Jack · 22-10-2017 02:25PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

The point of #metoo is to create awareness.

To make everyone realise how common sexual harassment is.

...

The only way to stop it is to educate your children (boys and girls) about how to treat others, not just as kids but as teenagers too.

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 02:30PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

No they are not. Ask your partner/ sisters/ cousins/ friends if they've been sexually assaulted and I would say there's a good chance all of them have had some experience with it.

I wouldn't say it's been ineffective. We're all on this thread talking about it. It's been catapulted into the public eye and all over the media because it's been outed in Hollywood.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 02:31PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But people are already aware of how common sexual harassment is, and they are aware of just how rare it is too, and they have been educating their children in how to treat others, and their children have learned how to treat others by learning from others too. That's why the metoo hashtag like all these other hashtags in the virtual world are ineffective at creating or raising any sort of awareness, because people are generally exposed to a lot more in their lives, for a lot longer, than the latest trending hashtag.

A lot (I would say the vast majority) of men are not aware of how common it is and a lot of women have normalised it to themselves as something that just has to endured.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 22-10-2017 02:36PM

With the way things are going in the world I would not be surprised if in a few decades segregation is introduced and sex banned, driven by the fear of men. Insemination would be the means of conception.

A bit like that 90s action film Demolition Man where sex is seen as disgusting and instead people have sex through VR.

MRnotlob606 · 22-10-2017 02:36PM

I had a guy complaining about that only 6 guys on his friend list were using it the hashtag on his facebook account. Absolute tool.

keith_sixteen · 22-10-2017 02:39PM

Social meeja is the worst.

kylith · 22-10-2017 02:41PM

sonic85 wrote: »

What do you want us to do about it - serious question? Can the women on the thread actually give solutions to this in a clear and concise way?

Wibbs wrote: »

*sound of crickets*

"Women are having an issue with men's behaviour. What are women going to do about it?" Let me put it this way: we're not sexually harassing and assaulting ourselves, are we?

How about suggestions from ye?

The vast majority of women appear to have issues with the behaviour of men they meet. What do you, other men, propose as a solution for this? Suggestions in a clear and concise way, please?

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently they never or very rarely tell men about all these threats and assaults. It's not just a recent thing, even your mother's experiences mirrored your own. What's the bloody point is an easy out and again it's Men's™ fault, even though apparently Women™ don't say anything and haven't for generations.

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

Crea · 22-10-2017 02:42PM

Do you know why we don't tell?
Because if you do our freedom is restricted. Some sleaze feels you up at a disco/concert/holiday /pub as a teen and the parents answer is not to let their daughters go to those places again. "Don't put yourself in that position again" seems to be the message given to women.
Unless the Dad's, brothers, boyfriends actually shadow the women they aren't going to be there to break the fingers of every asshole would pinches, gropes and fondles.
They aren't going to be there to punch every guy who says prick tease or pushes you against a wall because you turned him down.
Tbh the vast majority of times it happened to me it was done by a stranger in passing and I couldn't point them out anyway.
In one case it was a friends husband and highlighting it would probably damage our friendship so I avoid him and "don't put myself into that position again".
Yet again women are blamed for it happening because we don't speak up when it does.
How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

One eyed Jack · 22-10-2017 02:47PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

No they are not. Ask your partner/ sisters/ cousins/ friends if they've been sexually assaulted and I would say there's a good chance all of them have had some experience with it.

I wouldn't say it's been ineffective. We're all on this thread talking about it. It's been catapulted into the public eye and all over the media because it's been outed in Hollywood.

Why would I even want to ask anyone that? If someone tells me about their experience, I'll listen, but I have no intention of ever asking anyone have they ever been sexually assaulted. How many people have you ever asked have they been sexually assaulted? How many people have asked you have you ever been sexually assaulted? I know you posted some examples of your experiences a minute ago but it's just a thing with me that I wouldn't quote them as the person may want to retract them, but how many people have you risked relating your experiences to them offline? It's easier to 'raise awareness' with complete strangers, because you don't know them, they don't know you, and it'll all die down fairly soon anyway. That doesn't happen offline because you have to interact with your partner / sisters / cousins / friends every day, and they have to interact with you, so how much awareness are you raising really, and what is the significant effect of that?

There's none really, as most of the people you interact with on a daily basis offline still aren't aware of what you just told a bunch of complete strangers who have no daily interaction with you whatsoever.

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 02:47PM

kylith wrote: »

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

PREACH!

Sums up my sentiments better than I ever could.

22-10-2017 02:50PM

In terms of dating, does this mean that women will start making approaches, initiating and encouraging encounters etc... now that almost any "romantic" initiative by a man towards a woman can be shown as sexual harassment?

Because I've been thinking back over conversations with friends and my own experiences, and mostly those little movements towards a relationship or dating happened because the man initiated them. The women usually waited for it to happen and then made their decision whether it was welcome or not.

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.

I get that sexual harassment occurs. I think all men have seen it happen but how do you prevent it? Physical intervention brings a host of legal problems and even then, you're interfering with another persons' issues, and you don't really know whats going on.

I've seen a guy step in when he saw a woman being hit by her boyfriend and then experienced a bottle over the head by the girlfriend... she protected the boyfriend that hit her. When the Gardai arrived, the guy was charged with assault, not the boyfriend hitting the woman. But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 02:56PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Why would I even want to ask anyone that? If someone tells me about their experience, I'll listen, but I have no intention of ever asking anyone have they ever been sexually assaulted. How many people have you ever asked have they been sexually assaulted? How many people have asked you have you ever been sexually assaulted? I know you posted some examples of your experiences a minute ago but it's just a thing with me that I wouldn't quote them as the person may want to retract them, but how many people have you risked relating your experiences to them offline? It's easier to 'raise awareness' with complete strangers, because you don't know them, they don't know you, and it'll all die down fairly soon anyway. That doesn't happen offline because you have to interact with your partner / sisters / cousins / friends every day, and they have to interact with you, so how much awareness are you raising really, and what is the significant effect of that?

Why would you want to ask someone that? Because they're afraid or embarrassed about it. They're confidence and self esteem might be shot from it and your ignorance isn't helping.

No one has asked me that. I've told my bf and one of my best friends whose male and they were shocked and disgusted and angry that it happens.

Strangers sharing their experiences might cause others (like you) to take your blinkers off and see that harassment is happening all around you.

Sonics2k · 22-10-2017 02:57PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

I mean, you know I'm not fan of this "all men are dangerous" ****e, but your general attitude about this is kinda well, dickish. And I mean that in the nicest way.

22-10-2017 02:58PM

Crea wrote: »

How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

I agree with you. I suspect the vast majority of male posters here agree with you.

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

I've never grabbed a strangers ass. I've never wolf whistled at a woman. I don't shout crude comments at women. When I approach a woman for dating, if she refuses, I apologize politely and move away.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Instead, it's "men".

22-10-2017 03:00PM

kylith wrote: »

Well, looking at this thread the reasons women don't talk about this is: not wanting to upset our loved ones when there's nothing they can do about it, being told that X shouldn't upset us when it does, being told we should take it as a compliment, being told we're blowing it out of proportion, being told we're lying, being told we're jumping on the bandwagon, knowing that we'll have to listen to 'But Y happens to men', knowing that the man we say it to will claim that he has never seen X happen so he won't believe it, knowing that we will be told that the guy who did it is actually a 'really nice guy' who didn't mean it, not wanting to relive it over and over if we do report something serious, not wanting to have our character assassinated in a court if we report something serious, an endless lifetime of hearing that we shouldn't be surprised that X happens if we walk down a certain street, or dress a certain way, or have a couple of drinks, or are alone with a man/men. I'm sure there are more.

Now you can add women making men afraid to approach them in case they're arrested for showing interest to the list. It's a lot to be responsible for, best stay silent.

Don't assume all men are rapists BUT when you're out and about make sure you assume all men are rapists or questions will be asked - of you, now - if something happens you and you took the risk of assuming that they're not. People will ask what did you expect, and expecting not to be assaulted doesn't cut the mustard.

Sure, add your voice to those of other women who've endured harassment, but also take responsibility for upsetting men who don't. That's your fault, don't forget, so it's probably best for everyone concerned if you never talk about it and just let it go. It's not that big a deal, surely, and after all ALL women love to be harassed if the guy is good-looking, donchaknow.

Donald Trump · 22-10-2017 03:00PM

Crea wrote: »

Do you know why we don't tell?
Because if you do our freedom is restricted. Some sleaze feels you up at a disco/concert/holiday /pub as a teen and the parents answer is not to let their daughters go to those places again. "Don't put yourself in that position again" seems to be the message given to women.
Unless the Dad's, brothers, boyfriends actually shadow the women they aren't going to be there to break the fingers of every asshole would pinches, gropes and fondles.
They aren't going to be there to punch every guy who says prick tease or pushes you against a wall because you turned him down.
Tbh the vast majority of times it happened to me it was done by a stranger in passing and I couldn't point them out anyway.
In one case it was a friends husband and highlighting it would probably damage our friendship so I avoid him and "don't put myself into that position again".
Yet again women are blamed for it happening because we don't speak up when it does.
How about men keep their damn hands to themselves and not act like assholes when they hear the word "no"?

Very simplistic.

Some fellas go around putting their hands on women, one after another. They do it because eventually they'll find one girl who fancies them and won't be upset. I'm not talking about grabbing their boobs or that, maybe just putting their arms around their waist or rubbing up against them on the dancefloor

It's terrible and sleazy and used to piss me off no end to see it happen. But it does tend to "work" for those fella who are "playing the numbers".

When the recipient/target fancies the look of the fella, they will perceive it as him being confident or "a rogue". She doesn't realise, or want to realise, he's done the same thing to 10 other girls in the past hour and she was just the next on the list

Again, I'm not talking about grabbing boobs or arse, but to me it's a symptom of the same issue and can lead to more serious things

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 03:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.....
I But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

If that's the take home message you're getting you're way off the mark.

If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and assaulting one then you have a big problem.

This campaign isn't about getting men intervene to protect a woman. It's about men into assaulting a woman in the first place.

Christy42 · 22-10-2017 03:02PM

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of dating, does this mean that women will start making approaches, initiating and encouraging encounters etc... now that almost any "romantic" initiative by a man towards a woman can be shown as sexual harassment?

Because I've been thinking back over conversations with friends and my own experiences, and mostly those little movements towards a relationship or dating happened because the man initiated them. The women usually waited for it to happen and then made their decision whether it was welcome or not.

The problem with the Metoo campaign is that it encourages fear in men. That anything we might do will be seen as sexual harassment. We already have to deal with nasty verbal rejections, mix-signals (the woman repeatedly touches you, but isn't actually interested), etc. but now a misunderstanding about her interest (or lackof) has moved beyond a simple mistake to something serious, and later, perhaps criminal.

I get that sexual harassment occurs. I think all men have seen it happen but how do you prevent it? Physical intervention brings a host of legal problems and even then, you're interfering with another persons' issues, and you don't really know whats going on.

I've seen a guy step in when he saw a woman being hit by her boyfriend and then experienced a bottle over the head by the girlfriend... she protected the boyfriend that hit her. When the Gardai arrived, the guy was charged with assault, not the boyfriend hitting the woman. But at the same time, campaigns like this tell us that men should intervene to protect women; To stop this kind of behavior from happening.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I think it is more when/if guys talk about stuff like grabbing pussy you point out it is not ok (it happens so obviously plenty don't know it is not ok) or if you are a role model you take the role seriously in this regard. Obviously not these won't apply to everyone. The point is to stop it from happening in the long run, not stop it as it happens.

I have seen nothing about stepping in to physically stop an altercation between strangers which seems to be entirely your own assumption.

Nor have I seen anything about all advances by men being sexual assault. That again is your own assumption all stories I have seen have been about unwanted physical contact, frequently with no interaction between the people involved beforehand.

22-10-2017 03:04PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

If that's the take home message you're getting you're way off the mark.

If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and assaulting one then you have a big problem.

Love this. Note: I said sexual harassment. Not assault.

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 03:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Promoting? It's creating awareness.

So you're saying for every night I go out and I haven't been assaulted I should put up FB status saying "Thanks to all the great guys out tonight you didn't assault me".

Martina1991 · 22-10-2017 03:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Love this. Note: I said sexual harassment. Not assault.

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 22-10-2017 03:11PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

In fairness to him there was a Twitter of an actress earlier in the thread very offended about being asked for her number.

#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

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