#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

professore · 22-10-2017 12:12PM

neonsofa wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Both I guess. It's not like there is no awareness of sexual assault against women, the media talks about it all the time.

Absolutely. But in the case of the me too hashtag, and your previous post, who is it you want them to have told? Everybody on Twitter? Or their family? Or..?
And if the media always talks about it then why do you want them to tell said people? Not being smart, genuinely not understnding what you meant by your post, sorry.

First their family. Then the Gardai.

sonic85 · 22-10-2017 12:13PM

B0jangles wrote: »

A really good start would be to just listen and actually believe women when they tell you about the harassment they've experienced.

In my experience, one of the commonest reactions is for the listener to jump to trying to explain away what happened as drunken messing, or a misunderstanding, or... some other convoluted explanation for why what happened didn't actually happen. Don't feel like you can make the incident simply not have happened if you explain it away well enough.

Immediately threatening to attack the perpatrator is not actually helpful; you might feel a lot better but it might make things more difficult for your sister/mother. They might actually be wary of telling you about stuff like this if they think you're going to head off and start cracking heads open.

What happens if you go overboard and he ends up seriously injured or dead? Trial + prison for you, massive guilt for having told you for your mother/sister.

The last is the most contentious - if you know one of your friends gets obnoxious and 'handsy' when he's drunk - call that out, don't just laugh awkwardly and say that 'he's a tosser but he's a good guy really'. Shame is a powerful motivator. Even if he still thinks it's just good fun, he'll hopefully stop doing it when he's around you and that's a start.

Like drunk driving, it used to be incredibly commonplace but it's become more and more of a shameful thing to do so far fewer people do it.

Thanks for the reply I appreciate it.

First of all if any female in my life approaches me and tells me something has happened then I'll believe them. Simple as that.

If someone forces themselves on somebody else then they deserve everything they get IMO.

If I see someone grabbing another person then I'll tell them to quit it - but would most people not do that anyway? The vast majority of the population knows stuff like that is wrong so how the fcuk are there so many instances of harassment and outright assault?

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 12:14PM

B0jangles wrote: »

Hang on, the post you quote was a direct response to a completely different post of yours (one where you got rather hilariously managed to become impatient that there wasn't a complete answer to a complex question provided within seven minutes), so I don't understand why you are taking it as a response to anything else.

I simply asked the question again: Please point out where I talked any poster's experiences down. Once will do, or stop lying about what I've said or haven't said. Because you didn't answer it. Clear enough for you? And an answer would be nice or you're admitting to being confused or lying about what I have or haven't posted.

anewme · 22-10-2017 12:15PM

professore wrote: »

anewme wrote: »

I do object to it, as I object to all generalisations, unless supported by mountains of hard data.

From the thread yesterday, people who objected were rounded on, and the opinion that " most girls manipulate adult men" was left largely unchallenged.

All you can do is speak out when you come across these views, people (in general) gave a habit of looking the other way unless something effects them directly.

The Listowel case was not that long ago, was it?

Edited to add 2009

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

B0jangles · 22-10-2017 12:16PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Get better men in your life.

Actually I blame third wave feminism. Secondly point out where the statement; women are always victims and it's always men's fault doesn't apply. Even in your posts. Women are victims of men. No point telling men in your lives, because either they don't listen, or go on the attack, or don't shame other men enough. Yep, still our fault. It's well worn for a reason, because it fits like a glove.

When telling it like it is results in an explosion of such extraordinary defensiveness, it's just quicker and quieter not to say anything.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 12:18PM

B0jangles wrote: »

When telling it like it is results in an explosion of such extraordinary defensiveness, it's just quicker and quieter not to say anything.

So it's still the men in your life's fault and you're still the victim? As I said well worn for a reason.

B0jangles · 22-10-2017 12:20PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I simply asked the question again: Please point out where I talked any poster's experiences down. Once will do, or stop lying about what I've said or haven't said. Because you didn't answer it. Clear enough for you? And an answer would be nice or you're admitting to being confused or lying about what I have or haven't posted.

You're entirely correct, I did mix you up with another poster, that was very careless of me and I apologise.

neonsofa · 22-10-2017 12:22PM

professore wrote: »

First their family. Then the Gardai.

Done and done. I still haven't told friends, extended family, colleagues, Twitter. If I posted hashtag me too a lot of people would be surprised. So I'm not sure how your point relates to the hashtag tbh.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 12:22PM

anewme wrote: »

The Listowel case was not that long ago, was it?

Ah not that "example" again. 1) it was as much about the fact the woman was an outsider and the rapist was a "local lad" and 2) the rest of Irish society went apesh1t over the conduct of those muppets and rightfully fully supported the woman who had been raped(which she herself acknowledged).

B0jangles · 22-10-2017 12:23PM

sonic85 wrote: »

With all due respect WTF are you on about? I've read through this whole thread and you know all I've taken from it? Most women get harassed or assaulted but tell no one. They don't tell anyone because they think they won't be believed or what's the point. How will anything change? All men are responsible - men are bad mmmmmkay. That's it.

Where are the solutions? Throw a few out to me there you must have some suggestions. Honestly I'm actually interested I'm not taking the pi$$.

I did - see post #250.

I was laughing at Wibbs getting all impatient because no-one had answered your request for a whole 7 minutes.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 12:25PM

B0jangles wrote: »

You're entirely correct, I did mix you up with another poster, that was very careless of me and I apologise.

Fair play. *tips hat*

sonic85 · 22-10-2017 12:26PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I did - see post #250.

I was laughing at Wibbs getting all impatient because no-one had answered your request for a whole 7 minutes.

Yeah I seen that! Apologies - I can be a bit on the slow side replying to posts!

anewme · 22-10-2017 12:30PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah not that "example" again. 1) it was as much about the fact the woman was an outsider and the rapist was a "local lad" and 2) the rest of Irish society went apesh1t over the conduct of those muppets and rightfully fully supported the woman who had been raped(which she herself acknowledged).

It still happened. It could happen again.

Don't think for one minute it could not.

I would also think that this Lady's experience put a lot of people off reporting incidents. Maybe they are the me toos now as well?

Why would you discount something as serious as this in a discussion of why people are putting a hashtag of me too to indicate in a lot of cases historic sexual assault and why people do not come forward.

Sonics2k · 22-10-2017 12:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's use this argument to highlight something else...

The biggest threat to Europe is Muslims.

The biggest threat to American civilians are blacks

Is that ok to say?

I think they mean statistically, women are far more likely be attacked or killed by a man than anything else.

professore · 22-10-2017 12:34PM

neonsofa wrote: »

professore wrote: »

First their family. Then the Gardai.

Done and done. I still haven't told friends, extended family, colleagues, Twitter. If I posted hashtag me too a lot of people would be surprised. So I'm not sure how your point relates to the hashtag tbh.

You should tell them. The ones that don't take you seriously are not your friends.

professore · 22-10-2017 12:34PM

anewme wrote: »

professore wrote: »

anewme wrote: »

I do object to it, as I object to all generalisations, unless supported by mountains of hard data.

From the thread yesterday, people who objected were rounded on, and the opinion that " most girls manipulate adult men" was left largely unchallenged.

All you can do is speak out when you come across these views, people (in general) gave a habit of looking the other way unless something effects them directly.

The Listowel case was not that long ago, was it?

Edited to add 2009

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-sex-case-that-divided-a-town-and-shocked-a-watching-nation-26593097.html

That case was an absolute disgrace.

anewme · 22-10-2017 12:35PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

I think they mean statistically, women are far more likely be attacked or killed by a man than anything else.

To be fair, men are also most likely to be attacked and killed by men also.

Or else bears. Damn bears. :pac:

professore · 22-10-2017 12:36PM

I'm off for lunch and a nice bracing walk with the lovely Mrs. Professore and our daughters. Enjoy your Sunday everyone.

PCeeeee · 22-10-2017 12:45PM

anewme wrote: »

It still happened. It could happen again.

Don't think for one minute it could not.

I would also think that this Lady's experience put a lot of people off reporting incidents. Maybe they are the me toos now as well?

Why would you discount something as serious as this in a discussion of why people are putting a hashtag of me too to indicate in a lot of cases historic sexual assault and why people do not come forward.

The rapist was convicted, sentenced to 7 years and placed on the sex offenders register for life. The justice system could have done little more.

As I remember the courtroom 'incident' was widely reported and widely condemned. The consensus among anyone I talked to about this was disgust/disbelief.

This Lady's experience was dreadful, because she was subjected to a dreadful attack. The ridiculous carry on in court no doubt compounded that. However the justice was served and society at large was firmly on her side.

The rapist's friends were wrong to do what they did but what are we to do about it? What did you do about it?

neonsofa · 22-10-2017 01:03PM

professore wrote: »

You should tell them. The ones that don't take you seriously are not your friends.

Why should I? It's not that I don't want to tell them because they won't believe me btw. It's just not something that is discussed in everyday conversation with friends and colleagues but that doesn't mean it's not happening. Hence the metoo hashtag I'm guessing. Because it is widespread and just because I don't go into the office on a Monday and say "well you'll never guess what happened to me on Saturday" doesn't mean it's not happening.

And just to also point out, an experience of mine that i posted on this thread, an experience i shared in response to a post that said "why not tell them to **** off" that i posted as an explanation as to why i wouldnt always be in a position to do that- not a post vilifying men or anything of the sort, just me telling my story and my own difficulty in confronting the behaviour- the response was "well the male version of that is...".

Maybe women are telling people, but what they are actually saying is just not really being heard.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 22-10-2017 01:05PM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK.
So men are ignorant because women don't tell them? Whose "fault" is that? Jesus this is like the stereotype of the man asking a woman "is everything OK?" to be met with either stoney silence or "if you cared you'd know" and an ever increasing scowl, because we're not mind readers.

Again Men™ aren't bloody psychic. And you wonder why so many don't take this seriously? Unreal. Frankly this nonsense is really starting to give me a pain in my arse.

And so if there's something like, I don't know, a highly visible social media campaign off the back of one of the biggest news stories of the year where women talk about their experiences in a way men can't possibly miss the response would be "oh my god, thanks for telling me, I never realised because you didn't talk about it"?

And not "shut up overreacting" "this will lead to the end of the species" "Cultural marxist this is why trump college campuses witch hunt feminazis herp dee derp" I don't believe you" "Shut up shut up shut up shut up".

Real fcukin mystery why women don't talk about this more. It must be just to mess with men's heads.

anewme · 22-10-2017 01:06PM

PCeeeee wrote: »

The rapist was convicted, sentenced to 7 years and placed on the sex offenders register for life. The justice system could have done little more.

As I remember the courtroom 'incident' was widely reported and widely condemned. The consensus among anyone I talked to about this was disgust/disbelief.

This Lady's experience was dreadful, because she was subjected to a dreadful attack. The ridiculous carry on in court no doubt compounded that. However the justice was served and society at large was firmly on her side.

The rapist's friends were wrong to do what they did but what are we to do about it? What did you do about it?

Are we not discussing why people do not come forward and report sexual assaults?

If you seriously do not think that there are people who have not reported sexual assaults as a result and fear of what happened to this lady, then you are missing the point of the discussion.

The man quite rightly went off to jail, but the woman still had to resume her life and live with the consequences .

Its ironic how the Social Worker who blew the whistle on the Rochdale Asian gang scandal did not have her contract renewed. She too had the support of society at large.

Harvey Weinstein is just a current example.

There's numerous examples of people getting "justice" but at what cost to their own lives.

One eyed Jack · 22-10-2017 01:08PM

anewme wrote: »

It still happened. It could happen again.

Don't think for one minute it could not.

I would like to think that it wouldn't happen again. Why would anyone want to think it could happen again?

I would also think that this Lady's experience put a lot of people off reporting incidents. Maybe they are the me toos now as well?

I would think that particular case wouldn't be all that relevant to an individual deciding whether or not to make a complaint against a person. I think the circumstances of their own experience would be far more of a consideration to them. Maybe they will realise that simple platitudes and hashtags don't actually do anything tangible to address their issues.

Why would you discount something as serious as this in a discussion of why people are putting a hashtag of me too to indicate in a lot of cases historic sexual assault and why people do not come forward.

Nobody actually discounted that woman's experience. It's completely unrelated IMO to the metoo hashtag nonsense because the woman in that case rather than just posting metoo on twitter or whatever, actually did something to have her complaint taken seriously by people who were in a position to actually do something about it. Posting a hashtag of metoo on social media IMO actually has the opposite of the intended effect, that is if the intended effect was ever to have themselves taken seriously, and not just using the latest fad to try and shame people who can't take them seriously and then claim that it's because of those people that they feel they can't come forward.

Bojangles was right about one thing - shame can be a powerful motivator, but only if a person feels they have done something to feel ashamed of. If they don't feel that, because they haven't done anything to be ashamed of, then they aren't going to listen to anyone trying to shame them for something they haven't done. Isn't that why we don't condone victim-blaming? Because the person hasn't done anything wrong? And yet some people think it's ok to blame people for something when they haven't done anything wrong, simply by virtue of their sex? I'd suggest that was a good example of cognitive dissonance on their part myself -

Don't victim-blame or shame victims because they haven't done anything wrong / men are the biggest threat to women (even though the vast, vast majority of men have never done anything wrong, there is still an attempt to shame men). There's no real attempt to address the issue as far as I can see, just using yet another opportunity to shame people when they haven't done anything wrong.

Thankfully, the only people who want that sort of a society are also, in a very tiny, tiny minority, that is unfortunately magnified by their access to social media.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 22-10-2017 01:23PM

Men are the biggest threat to everyone actually. The vast majority of the perpetrators and victims of violent and sexual* crime are men. But if you're not one of those perpetrators then there's no need to take that statement of fact personally.

Women are the biggest threat to babies IIRC. Women commit the most emotional abuse, by far. Women, God help us, are responsible for the Kardashians being famous.

See how I can say those things and it doesn't mean that I'm saying that any individual woman on this thread is an emotionally abusive infanticide enthusiast who rushes out to buy all the new Kardashian crap?

*men being the biggest perpetrators there, not victims.

neonsofa · 22-10-2017 01:28PM

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Women, God help us, are responsible for the Kardashians being famous.

.

Ah now I think a lot of the blame lays with men on that one in the early days .... :pac:

PCeeeee · 22-10-2017 01:30PM

anewme wrote: »

Are we not discussing why people do not come forward and report sexual assaults?

If you seriously do not think that there are people who have not reported sexual assaults as a result and fear of what happened to this lady, then you are missing the point of the discussion.

The man quite rightly went off to jail, but the woman still had to resume her life and live with the consequences .

Its ironic how the Social Worker who blew the whistle on the Rochdale Asian gang scandal did not have her contract renewed. She too had the support of society at large.

Harvey Weinstein is just a current example.

There's numerous examples of people getting "justice" but at what cost to their own lives.

Your point as I understand it, is that the actions of the rapist 'condolers' (for the want of a better description) in the Listowel case may make it difficult for other victims of sexual assault to report the crime. A perfectly reasonable point that I accept.

The problem I have is that there is a creeping consensus to says that I as a man am somehow complicit in the actions of rapists, sexual offenders and their fellow travelers. Let me be clear.

I am not.

I am part of a society that lambasted the actions of the minority in Listowel. I am part of a culture that has a legal system that convicted and sentenced the offender to 7 years for his crime.

22-10-2017 01:42PM

anewme wrote: »

Again if you reflect it back to the person making the post, he used the words "most girls, and I mean girls". Not some, most.

Not many people objected to this way of thinking, so either they agreed, or did not care.

With respect, if you're going to rehash a previous argument about a badly worded post from another thread, where you stated you understood/accepted the mistake, could you possibly do it in that thread?

anewme · 22-10-2017 01:43PM

PCeeeee wrote: »

Your point as I understand it, is that the actions of the rapist 'condolers' (for the want of a better description) in the Listowel case may make it difficult for other victims of sexual assault to report the crime. A perfectly reasonable point that I accept.

The problem I have is that there is a creeping consensus to says that I as a man am somehow complicit in the actions of rapists, sexual offenders and their fellow travelers. Let me be clear.

I am not.

I am part of a society that lambasted the actions of the minority in Listowel. I am part of a culture that has a legal system that convicted and sentenced the offender to 7 years for his crime.

Yes you are correct, my point is cases like this would disuade people coming forward.

As would Harvey Weinstein(as someone says both men and women knew he was up to no good)

I am not saying anyone here condones rapists either Listiwel or any other case for one minute.

However there is a big problem and personally I would understand why a victim of sexual assault might, having weighed up the pros and cons, stay quiet.

One brave person speaks out and they all come out. But it takes that person, hence me too.

jimmy saville
The it's a knock out guy
Rolf Harris

When the President of the biggest power in the works says it's ok to "grab them by the pussy" don't wonder why people are reluctant to come forward

PCeeeee · 22-10-2017 01:57PM

Anewme, perhaps you are right. Maybe the metoo thing will help people. I don't know. There are elements to it that make me uncomfortable.

Chief among them is this. If a crime has been committed then it needs to be reported to the police. That is the way the system works. No report means no investigation means no conviction and punishment. The system does not work in the absence of reporting.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 01:57PM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK.
So men are ignorant because women don't tell them? Whose "fault" is that? Jesus this is like the stereotype of the man asking a woman "is everything OK?" to be met with either stoney silence or "if you cared you'd know" and an ever increasing scowl, because we're not mind readers.

Again Men™ aren't bloody psychic. And you wonder why so many don't take this seriously? Unreal. Frankly this nonsense is really starting to give me a pain in my arse.

So you think women should tell men about their sexual harassment but get annoyed when they do that on social media?

#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Comments