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Discovery 1x03 – "Context is for Kings" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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    #92
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,956 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Bacchus wrote: »
    Sorry, I keep seeing this menioned that she started a war. How did she start a war? T'Kuvma was carrying out a plan to start a war to unite the Klingons. Whatever Michael did was inconsequential... no?

    T'Kuvma may have had a plan to incite a war, but at every turn Michael's actions facilitated that; however unwittingly. And as was observed before the away mission to the Klingon ship, had they captured him alive it would have shamed the whole faction & the risk of war reduced; instead Burnham lost her head at the wrong moment and created a martyr for the Klingons to rally behind.


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    #93
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    seamus wrote: »
    Perhaps they're attempting to create an anti-Klingon bioweapon that they can just transport on board mid-battle.

    A thought just popped into my mind there... maybe we can through in Doom alongside Fringe and BSG as influences on the show? What if that monster/alien came through from "the other side" (or the "upside down" or whatever they might call it) as a result of the experimental spore engine. Maybe the military motivation is to capture and study these vicious monsters for use as a bioweapon (as you suggest).


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    #94
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    pixelburp wrote: »
    T'Kuvma may have had a plan to incite a war, but at every turn Michael's actions facilitated that; however unwittingly. And as was observed before the away mission to the Klingon ship, had they captured him alive it would have shamed the whole faction & the risk of war reduced; instead Burnham lost her head at the wrong moment and created a martyr for the Klingons to rally behind.

    Did they though? What action did she take to facilitate it because her mini-mutiny and plan to fire first failed and the Klingons attacked anyway. Take her out of the equation and it would have been the exact same outcome. The captain would have sat and waited for backup to arrive and continue to attempt opening a dialogue.

    Regarding the capture of T'Kuvma. That was a good plan (by her) that failed in its execution by sending only two people to board a Klingon ship! The captain got herself killed, Michael disabled T'Kuvma (he was still alive... though later succumbed to his wounds) and tried to get to the captain but Saru beamed her away. How is that Michael's fault? I blame poor decisions by the captain (in picking a weak away team) and Saru (in not letting Michael complete the mission - though at that point she may have been solely focused on the captain) for the failure to capture T'Kuvma.


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    #95
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Deleted User wrote: »
    TBH I just thought the Tribble was there because it was extremely soothing. I might be wrong, but do they not discover that Klingons hate Tribbles until the TOS episode? Which is set a few years ahead in the cannon.

    But I definitely laughed a bit when I saw it.



    I thought the exact same! I mean, we're even told of the plan at the opening of the first episode!

    We know that, but no-one in the Federation knows that. All the evidence does state she committed a mutiny and started a war.

    In realist she committed a mutiny and got involved in a war that was going to happen anyway.


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    #96
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    seamus wrote: »
    I guess one issue is that she's is effectively Spock's sister, yet we've never heard of her. Good article here though explaining why it's not a problem:
    https://trekmovie.com/2017/07/31/editorial-spock-having-a-sister-in-star-trek-discovery-is-not-that-big-of-a-deal/

    Would also make sense that Spock wouldn't casually drop her name into conversation if she's despised by Starfleet personnel.

    Spock keeping his family life private makes complete sense and it enabled the writers to retcon in his half brother Sybok. But Burnham is a different matter from Sybok - she would be infamous in Starfleet circles as both a mutineer & instrumental in the outbreak of the Klingon war. It's much harder to accept that this would never have come up in conversation between Kirk/Spock/McCoy.

    But from a character perspective I think it weakens Spock's character. Part of his character background is how he struggled with human emotions both his own and in understanding others. Having a human sibling would have exposed Spock to human emotions all throughout his childhood.


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    #97
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Yeah, Michael seemed to have the right ideas throughout the pilot episodes. She broke the rules, unquestionably, but only because she believed she was right. I think she was right too.


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Goodshape wrote: »
    Yeah, Michael seemed to have the right ideas throughout the pilot episodes. She broke the rules, unquestionably, but only because she believed she was right. I think she was right too.

    That's what I love about it, really. We know she was right. She knows she was right. Nobody else does. It adds an interesting factor.
    Greyjoy wrote: »
    Spock keeping his family life private makes complete sense and it enabled the writers to retcon in his half brother Sybok. But Burnham is a different matter from Sybok - she would be infamous in Starfleet circles as both a mutineer & instrumental in the outbreak of the Klingon war. It's much harder to accept that this would never have come up in conversation between Kirk/Spock/McCoy.

    But from a character perspective I think it weakens Spock's character. Part of his character background is how he struggled with human emotions both his own and in understanding others. Having a human sibling would have exposed Spock to human emotions all throughout his childhood.

    Just in case you didn't see, there's a separate thread that discusses continuity issues in Discovery.


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    #99
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    We know that, but no-one in the Federation knows that. All the evidence does state she committed a mutiny and started a war.

    In realist she committed a mutiny and got involved in a war that was going to happen anyway.

    I can understand that internally in the show, it looks bad for Michael. Her mutiny will be forever linked to the start of the war. I still find it a bit sloppy though from the writers... there are ship logs to show what happened, that Michael's actions did not cause the attack from the Klingons (who fired first). Add to that Michael's correct assertion that the 24 houses were uniting against a common enemy (i.e. the Federation), it's not hard to put together what happened. I'm happy enough to just accept that she is 'guilty by association' among her peers.

    .... however, what I'm specifically talking about is how I'm seeing posters make comments how she started the war or "facilitated it". She didn't. At least not as far as I can see.


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    #100
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    pixelburp wrote: »
    T'Kuvma may have had a plan to incite a war, but at every turn Michael's actions facilitated that; however unwittingly. And as was observed before the away mission to the Klingon ship, had they captured him alive it would have shamed the whole faction & the risk of war reduced; instead Burnham lost her head at the wrong moment and created a martyr for the Klingons to rally behind.

    I wouldn't put the blame for the war on Burnham's shoulders. It seemed that T'kuvma was committed to war regardless of Burnham killing the klingon. But she did squander the chance to stop the war in its tracks by killing T'kuvma instead of capturing him (doesn't the phaser change color from stun to kill?).
    She fully deserves the blame for that mistake especially since she was the one who proposed the plan to capture T'Kuvma.


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    #101
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    seamus wrote: »
    .......I find it really interesting that the Orville came out at the same time, given that both series seem to be going for the more natural scripts and dialogue like this, rather than the far more formal/deep overwritten dialogue that TNG/DS9/VOY went for.....


    I REALLY don't like the informal dialogue in The Orville. It is still an organisation based on a military chain of command and the use if "Hey man, how's it going" and all that kind of stuff grates when it's one officer talking to another (especially senior) officer. I do not like the too-casual nature of their interaction.

    I mentioned in a previous post that I didn't like the casual nature of the dialogue in the pilot of Discovery either.

    In this case I actually liked the "Shush" line because I thought it wasn't really a casual thing. They were incredulous that a Klingon should come out and go "shhhh" it was surprise rather than a quip
    Would also make sense that Spock wouldn't casually drop her name into conversation if she's despised by Starfleet personnel.

    That's actually a nice bit of retcon thinking there :)


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    #102
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Bacchus wrote: »
    I'm happy enough to just accept that she is 'guilty by association' among her peers.
    The vibe from episode 3 IMO is that they're going for a "warts and all" portrayal of humanity.

    In TNG and on, even criminals were just people who made a serious error, not bad guys at all. People being pursued by authorities were criminals of conscience or freedom fighters. Actual dangerous people were few and far between - Lore, perhaps, being one of the few "evil" characters.

    Behind every "evil" character was a "good intentions" story, like Ransom, and there was always a redemption; Ransom's self-sacrifice saved Voyager.

    Whereas Discovery appears to be making stronger efforts to show humans as flawed, like in TOS, irrational, potentially dangerous, potentially immoral. The 24th century-era Star Trek has always portrayed humans as enlightened and egalitarian, with very little selfishness or personality defects.


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The "shush" part made me laugh out loud.


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    #104
    D3V!L
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭D3V!L


    Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?


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    #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    D3V!L wrote: »
    Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?

    Ha, you're right.

    lorca-s-gorn-skeleton-and-kirk-fighting-the-gorn-in-tos-credit-cbs.jpg


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    #106
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,745 ✭✭✭Evade


    The shush part stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's a very human gesture.


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    #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Evade wrote: »
    The shush part stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's a very human gesture.

    TBH that might have been the point. It's probably the easiest way to non-verbally communicate to be quiet when dealing with humans.

    I love that now what we consider a "universal gesture" is now an actual universal gesture in the Trek universe :pac:


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    #108
    heebusjeebus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭heebusjeebus


    Surely the shush gesture could be used by all species that use their mouths to make noise?


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    #109
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,956 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I think that link off to TrekMovie about Spock is on point: after all, if Spock never even mentioned his parents until they were literally standing in-front of him & Kirk on the Enterprise, why would he ever have mentioned Michael? He doesn't do personal issues.

    Thinking ahead of how things might pan out too, feels like there are a couple of possibilities: Michael's reputation remains utterly tarnished by the series' end; she dies while saving the day (thus restoring her honour, by the laws of Narrative); either way, Spock's unlikely to mention her in chit-chat.


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    #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    heebusjeebus wrote: »
    Surely the shush gesture could be used by all species that use their mouths to make noise?

    Ha, I like to think that telepathic species like the Betazoids signal to shush by pointing to their heads.


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    #111
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,745 ✭✭✭Evade


    Deleted User wrote: »
    TBH that might have been the point. It's probably the easiest way to non-verbally communicate to be quiet when dealing with humans.
    It seems like very specific knowledge for a Klingon to have. Will one in a later episode give a thumbs up or the OK gesture?


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    #112
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Evade wrote: »
    It seems like very specific knowledge for a Klingon to have. Will one in a later episode give a thumbs up or the OK gesture?

    Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.


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    #113
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    interestingly enough there is a theory that shhh replicates sounds in the womb for an infant. Its reasonably common in Earth societies ;-) , so its plausible to say its a universal sound.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #114
    Evade
    Registered Users Posts: 6,745 ✭✭✭Evade


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.
    Except they haven't. Aside from a few raids, like the one that orphaned Burnham, there hasn't been any contact between the Federation and Klingons for about a century.


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    #115
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.

    Given the fact that the war was started because the Klingons feared they were losing their identity to the multicultural Federation - why would they adopt human gestures?


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    #116
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,956 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Greyjoy wrote: »
    Given the fact that the war was started because the Klingons feared they were losing their identity to the multicultural Federation - why would they adopt human gestures?

    Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

    I think we should / can forgive a little shushing :)


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    #117
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    D3V!L wrote: »
    Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?

    I saw the skeleton in a display case but didn't get a good look at it (I haven't rewatched the episode yet). There was also one on his desk/whatever that initially looked like a facehugger. (It wasn't but initially looked like one).

    Yeah...... The man got issues......


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    #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

    I think we should / can forgive a little shushing :)

    Plus it was very funny.


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    #119
    Greyjoy
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Greyjoy


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

    I think we should / can forgive a little shushing :)

    It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.


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    #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Greyjoy wrote: »
    It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

    Guaranteed if he did that, someone on here would say, "how dare he use a very human gesture of fear".


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    #121
    TheIrishGrover
    Registered Users Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭TheIrishGrover


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

    I think we should / can forgive a little shushing :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMLOqCaMRQg


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hstdINH9Lk0


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