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Anti-vaxxers

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    #362
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    pjohnson wrote: »
    Anti vaxers will kill themselves off through either pseudo science or an inability to understand science. Self solving problem.

    No they wont.

    They will cause death, sickness and suffering to their kids, and other children who for various reasons cannot be immunized and will cause these diseases to exist for decades longer than necessary.

    They themselves were probably vaccinated as kids..


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    #363
    tigger123
    Registered Users Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.

    Do you trust the medical community when they tell you not to smoke? Or are you suspicious of that too?


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    #364
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.

    Yes it is. Science is all about rational debate, evidence, data and statistical analysis.

    Anti vaccination activists are all about emotions, pseudo science and soundbites. They don't want rational debate, they avoid it and spout soundbites.. Just look at this thread.

    Anything is up for debate. But I for one don't have enough knowledge to debate or question in any meaningful way a epidemiologist with an MD a PhD and 25 years experience, or a drug researcher with 3 PhD's and 15 years experience. I can ask questions sure, I can get answers and attempt to understand those answers and even get those answered dumb ed down to the point where I understand them. BUT at the end of the day I dont have the education or knowledge to make a truly informed decision no matter how much information i am given, it comes down to trust..

    Do i trust 99.99999% of the medical community who vaccinate themselves and their kids or some person with no qualifications who rad an article on aluminum or mercury they found of google ??


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    #365
    Crea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    A friend of mine has a daughter in school in California. The HPV vaccine was being administered to the kids in the school. Anyone who wanted to opt out was told that their child could not attend the school if not vaccinated.
    It was a state run middle school. All vaccines had to be up to date.


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    #366
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.

    Scientists don't tell people not to question science. That would be as unscientific as one could be.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #367
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,156 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.


    what scientists have told you this?


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    #368
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    Without questioning things there would be no innovation in science and engineering.

    So questioning things is good as long as you have data to support your position. Anadoctal examples and emotion wouldn't be sufficient so maybe that is where the issue lies for you.


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    #369
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,365 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Addressing concerns is a good thing, discussing it with parents however if the concern is based on feelings or something from a wellness guru or they are mediating some mental health issues its if very difficult to reassure the person because their actions and reactions are not based on anything rational.

    Concerns based on empirical evidence based science is a different issue


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    #370
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    gar32 wrote: »
    I am not anti vax

    Oh really? Then why do you keep pushing the antivax line on multiple forums?


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    #371
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    tigger123 wrote: »
    Do you trust the medical community when they tell you not to smoke? Or are you suspicious of that too?


    I think the medical community have completely lost their way over the last couple of decades. They seem more concerned about controlling people and taking away personal freedoms than their primary role of advising people.

    If my doctor told me not to smoke, I would take it as advice, rather than a demand for me not to smoke.

    In terms of the vaccine. Doctors should be advising people to take the vaccine as research (done by other people) suggests it would be good. What I am seeing is the medical community demanding that people take this vaccine. Demanding based on research done by people they don't know.

    I can see the medical community and profession go down the pan in terms respect, just like journalism. It seems like the most shrill medical people are getting headlines and feeding their egos.


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    #372
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.
    No real scientist would ever say this. Hell, research is basically questioning pre-existing notions or why we haven't discovered more about x yet. And the thing about Science is that it is fallible, it's why we have the scientific method, to make it less fallible. Not infallible, as some people tend to believe, but less fallible then it would be otherwise.

    If a peer reviewed paper came out tomorrow about how vaccines are causing massive health issues to people in a reputable journal tomorrow, I'd have to reevaluate my opinion on vaccines. Until that point, I won't. And trust me, from my knowledge of chemistry, how medical ligands are formed and worked and the contents of what's in HPV and MMR vaccines, I highly doubt there will ever be such a paper. But, again, I'm not dead-set on that. I could be wrong. Any scientist that doesn't say they could be wrong is a bad scientist (unless you are talking to them about things that we definitely know)
    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I think the medical community have completely lost their way over the last couple of decades. They seem more concerned about controlling people and taking away personal freedoms than their primary role of advising people.

    If my doctor told me not to smoke, I would take it as advice, rather than a demand for me not to smoke.

    In terms of the vaccine. Doctors should be advising people to take the vaccine as research (done by other people) suggests it would be good. What I am seeing is the medical community demanding that people take this vaccine. Demanding based on research done by people they don't know.

    I can see the medical community and profession go down the pan in terms respect, just like journalism. It seems like the most shrill medical people are getting headlines and feeding their egos.
    This is a new angle. "The medical profession say I should definitely get my kids vaccinated, what assh0les they are, trying to look out for people's health! Ugh!"

    No, in some things the medical profession has an absolute right to demand what should be done in relation to health. Just because they demand doesn't mean they get what they want. If the medical profession had their way, smoking and drinking would be banned, because of the ill-effects. They aren't.

    Medical professions don't really care what you do to your body. Sure, they advise you on how to best take care of yourself and will treat you, no matter what you have done to yourself. But, when your actions put others at risk, the can't stand by that. By not vaccinating your kids, you reduce herd immunity. Sorry, Rubella and Whooping Cough are fcuking awful and I don't want to see them come back, ever. Trying to ensure that women have the best protection against one of the most lethal and hard to detect forms of cancer is also good, and by not letting your children get it, you are putting them at risk.


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    #373
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I think the medical community have completely lost their way over the last couple of decades. They seem more concerned about controlling people and taking away personal freedoms than their primary role of advising people.

    If my doctor told me not to smoke, I would take it as advice, rather than a demand for me not to smoke.

    In terms of the vaccine. Doctors should be advising people to take the vaccine as research (done by other people) suggests it would be good. What I am seeing is the medical community demanding that people take this vaccine. Demanding based on research done by people they don't know.

    I can see the medical community and profession go down the pan in terms respect, just like journalism. It seems like the most shrill medical people are getting headlines and feeding their egos.

    No, if they are demanding people do certain things it has more to do with them seeing or having to deal with the consequences of people not doing those things......

    .....


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    #374
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Jawgap wrote: »
    No, if they are demanding people do certain things it has more to do with them seeing or having to deal with the consequences of people not doing those things......

    .....

    Your body, your life. And if it goes wrong you pay Mr or Mrs Doctor a lot of money to sort it out.


    I find this case really bizarre. It's not like it is for a viral disease. Why are people being excluded from schools for not taking this? Very strange.


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    #375
    darkdubh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭darkdubh


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I always get suspicious when scientists tell you not to question science. Questioning stuff is what science is all about.

    Could you tell us what scientists have said this? I have never heard of any scientist come out with a statement like that.


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    #376
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,185 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Your body, your life. And if it goes wrong you pay Mr or Mrs Doctor a lot of money to sort it out.
    Mr or Mrs Doctor shouldnt have to treat people too stupid to treat themselves. If a doctor tells someone to stop smoking and said person ignores the advice only to give themselves cancer fcuk them. Doctor can spend the time on a patient that deserves care.


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    #377
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    darkdubh wrote: »
    Could you tell us what scientists have said this? I have never heard of any scientist come out with a statement like that.


    You often hear climate change people lose their **** if anybody questions it. Anybody who questions it is deemed "dangerous" or a looper


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    #378
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Your body, your life. And if it goes wrong you pay Mr or Mrs Doctor a lot of money to sort it out.


    I find this case really bizarre. It's not like it is for a viral disease. Why are people being excluded from schools for not taking this? Very strange.

    I think, then, it is fairly safe to assume you have not bothered reading the thread... The answers to your questions are in previous posts. Will give you a clue, herd immunity.

    MrP


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    #379
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I think the medical community have completely lost their way over the last couple of decades. They seem more concerned about controlling people and taking away personal freedoms than their primary role of advising people.

    If my doctor told me not to smoke, I would take it as advice, rather than a demand for me not to smoke.

    In terms of the vaccine. Doctors should be advising people to take the vaccine as research (done by other people) suggests it would be good. What I am seeing is the medical community demanding that people take this vaccine. Demanding based on research done by people they don't know.

    I can see the medical community and profession go down the pan in terms respect, just like journalism. It seems like the most shrill medical people are getting headlines and feeding their egos.

    You smoking impacts you.. Its a stupid decision but your choice.. (And I speak as an ex smoker)

    Your not vaccinating your kids impacts society as a whole..

    Think of it more like telling you, you cannot smoke in the work place, as in that situation your decision to smoke impacted on others.

    Your decision not to vaccinate your kids affects others..

    How would you feel if your daughter develops cervical cancer in here 30's knowing that there is a 70% chance that your decision caused her to have cancer ?

    How would you feel if your neighbors child died from whooping cough because she couldn't be vaccinated and couldn't depend on herd immunity because the take up of the vaccine was too low.

    Of if your son was sterile because he caught mumps and passed it onto that sickly kid in school who is now also sterile ?

    Your decisions.. Impact society..


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    #380
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    Your body, your life. And if it goes wrong you pay Mr or Mrs Doctor a lot of money to sort it out.


    I find this case really bizarre. It's not like it is for a viral disease. Why are people being excluded from schools for not taking this? Very strange.

    Because you don't pay even close to the actual cost of treating an illness if you or a dependent is hospitalised for any period of time.

    And by not vaccinating you just don't put the child at risk, you put everyone else at risk who comes into contact with that child/teenager/adult.


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    #381
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Because you don't pay even close to the actual cost of treating an illness if you or a dependent is hospitalised for any period of time.

    And by not vaccinating you just don't put the child at risk, you put everyone else at risk who comes into contact with that child/teenager/adult.

    Yeah but muh liburties being all stepped on by the big bag gubberment nanny state... Rabble rabble..


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    #382
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,215 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's amazing how the anti-vaxxers seem to be all about choice but then complain when schools try to protect pupils from the risks posed by non-vaccinated children.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #383
    mountai
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭mountai


    Well I always thought that science was an evolutionary process . The more that we question the process , the more knowledge we gain . Remember when Doctors told us that smoking could relieve stress , "Pall Mall , the Doctors cigarette ". We were told Thalidomide was safe , then other scientists discovered the opposite . I have raised the following points on this forum before and not one person bothered to address same , so I ask again ,
    Is it fair to label parents who have already allowed their children to be vaccinated with HPV as "Anti Vaxxers" ?
    We are assured that HPV has no lasting side effects , so , why is it deemed necessary to establish a fund for vaccination damage ?
    Why is ok for the chief executive of the health board to brand parents as "Terrorists"?
    Why is the uptake for the flu vaccine so low amongst the medical profession.
    Perhaps some of the more technically minded amongst you might address these points???


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    #384
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    mountai wrote: »
    Well I always thought that science was an evolutionary process . The more that we question the process , the more knowledge we gain . Remember when Doctors told us that smoking could relieve stress , "Pall Mall , the Doctors cigarette ". We were told Thalidomide was safe , then other scientists discovered the opposite . I have raised the following points on this forum before and not one person bothered to address same , so I ask again ,
    Is it fair to label parents who have already allowed their children to be vaccinated with HPV as "Anti Vaxxers" ?
    We are assured that HPV has no lasting side effects , so , why is it deemed necessary to establish a fund for vaccination damage ?
    Why is ok for the chief executive of the health board to brand parents as "Terrorists"?
    Why is the uptake for the flu vaccine so low amongst the medical profession.
    Perhaps some of the more technically minded amongst you might address these points???

    Could you answer a question please? Why do you ignore the evidence that shows this vaccine to be safe?


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    #385
    mountai
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭mountai


    jh79 wrote: »
    Could you answer a question please? Why do you ignore the evidence that shows this vaccine to be safe?

    Typical Farmers answer , answer a question with another question !!


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    #386
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,185 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    mountai wrote: »
    Typical Farmers answer , answer a question with another question !!

    So you dont like Farmers now? You're gettin into dodgy waters now boi.


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    #387
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    mountai wrote: »
    Is it fair to label parents who have already allowed their children to be vaccinated with HPV as "Anti Vaxxers" ?

    If they are encouraging others to avoid vaccination or avoid vaccinating their kids then yes..
    mountai wrote: »
    We are assured that HPV has no lasting side effects , so , why is it deemed necessary to establish a fund for vaccination damage ?

    Honest answer... Its a political response to antivax hysteria.

    No one is claiming any medication, including vaccines is 100% safe. All drugs carry the risk of potential side affects.

    However 99.9999999% of the adverse reaction to vaccines are very very minor,. a rash or mild flu like symptoms for a day or so.

    There are that 0.00000001% who may have a more serious side affect.

    However the benefits of vaccination far far outweigh the risks.. This has been proven again and again and again over the decades..

    mountai wrote: »
    Why is ok for the chief executive of the health board to brand parents as "Terrorists"?

    Because its an accurate description of the anti vax brigade...

    They are putting children's lives at risk.
    They are causing pain and suffering..
    They are causing the death of innocent people.
    They are causing long term physical injuries to people.

    Forget the emotion, forget the hyperbole, its that simple. No one can argue that vaccinations do not save lives and prevent disease and illness.

    In a just an fair society the anti vaccination brigade would be held responsible for every death they cause, every person that suffers as a result of their ignorance and every injury they cause.

    But these deaths may not occur for 50 years in some cases.. Long after many of these protestors have dies of old age people will still be suffering as a result of their stupidity..

    mountai wrote: »
    Why is the uptake for the flu vaccine so low amongst the medical profession.

    because people are lazy.
    mountai wrote: »
    Perhaps some of the more technically minded amongst you might address these points???

    Whats "technically minded" got to do with your question ??

    They are an attempt to distract, divert and twist.. Does not take a genius to figure that out..


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    #388
    branie2
    Registered Users Posts: 10,292 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    mountai wrote: »
    Typical Farmers answer , answer a question with another question !!

    Also an Irish answer


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    #389
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    mountai wrote: »
    Why is ok for the chief executive of the health board to brand parents as "Terrorists"?

    Let's be clear, there are two categories of campaigners against the HPV vaccine. One is actual parents of actual children who they believe to have suffered side effects as a result of the vaccine - these are not the "terrorists" being referred to. The "terrorists" being referred to are the social conservative lobby which is fuelling paranoia about the vaccine for an extremely nefarious alterior motive of sexual authoritarianism. They're active in the United States as well. That is separate and distinct from parents concerned about direct medical side effects.


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    #390
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,365 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality


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    #391
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's amazing how the anti-vaxxers seem to be all about choice but then complain when schools try to protect pupils from the risks posed by non-vaccinated children.

    How does not having the HPV Vaccine pose a risk to people who have had it?


This discussion has been closed.
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