Anti-vaxxers

donspeekinglesh · 03-09-2017 1:44pm

mountai wrote: »

Not once has ANYONE from HSE or Government gotten into an open debate with any member of Regret . What ere they frightened of??

Regret have a history of avoiding open debate. Have a listen to William Campbell's podcast Here's How, he had a look at their claims, and Regret were unwilling to defend them.

Jawgap · 03-09-2017 1:46pm

They'd be funny if their views weren't so ill founded and downright dangerous.

I firmly believe in the importance of a scepticism when it comes to science, evidence and the statements of those who present themselves as experts but there's a difference between rationally interrogating the science and using emotional anecdotes as the basis for rejecting an idea.

I feel sorry for the people who get taken in by the anti-vaxxers, the majority will not have to face the consequences of their gullibility but a few will, and they'll do it knowing those consequences were eminently avoidable.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-09-2017 2:38pm

Orion wrote: »

Suppose an adult Jehovah's Witness decides she doesn't want a life saving blood transfusion. Should she be allowed deny her child a transfusion?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hospital-ordered-to-give-jehovah-s-witness-transfusion-1.797030

The High Court tonight intervened to save the life of a seriously ill African woman by ordering a Dublin hospital to give her a life-saving blood transfusion.

,

gar32 · 03-09-2017 6:11pm

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Oh my glob, I was expecting the neurotoxin argument at some stage. So, here goes. I'm also going to get a little technical below, so if you have questions about certain words, feel free to ask.

Do you know what's in MMR vaccine? Basically a form of mercury. Now, we all know how dangerous mercury is, it's highly toxic. Here's the thing, you can radically alter an element's properties by binding it to another compound. In this case, an organic, carbon containing compound and sodium, making it a ligand. This ligand takes away all the harmful properties of mercury and ensures that the vaccine is delivered most effectively in the child.

Would you eat gold, something that is toxic? Silver, also toxic? No, but these things are used constantly in cancer and other treatments, due to the fact they are binded to other compounds and become ligands that negate the negative effect. There is no correlation between aluminum adjuvant in HPV and neurotoxicity. The same way there is no correlation between mercury and autism in young kids through the mmr vaccine.

Allergic reactions are the worst thing that can happen from a tried and tested vaccine (and I'm not diminishing allergic reactions, they are awful and can kill) but that's the only threat. Also, vaccines are more like the seatbelt in cars than anything, protecting you from what may happen. The analogy doesn't work. As in, with the seatbelt, you could still die. Without it, you almost definitely die.

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/injectingaluminum

gar32 · 03-09-2017 6:14pm

So the world expert on Aluminium say in that movie.

"The give a safe limit for Aluminium in vaccines. How do they know? I don't know & I have worked with Aluminium for 30 years. Aluminium is toxic."

pitifulgod · 03-09-2017 6:19pm

gar32 wrote: »

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/injectingaluminum

Random video is your source.

Alun · 03-09-2017 6:20pm

gar32 wrote: »

So the world expert on Aluminium say in that movie.

"The give a safe limit for Aluminium in vaccines. How do they know? I don't know & I have worked with Aluminium for 30 years. Aluminium is toxic."

So are sodium and chlorine. Do you ever eat salt?

Samaris · 03-09-2017 6:25pm

gar32 wrote: »

So the world expert on Aluminium say in that movie.

"The give a safe limit for Aluminium in vaccines. How do they know? I don't know & I have worked with Aluminium for 30 years. Aluminium is toxic."

Did you know that alum (yes, aluminium derivative) is used in great quantities in drinking water as part of the treatment process?

I regret to inform you that you have been drinking anything up to 200ug/l of aluminium every time you take a drink of water (200ug/l of iron too, and 50ug/l of manganese, assuming - and it's a big assumption - that your local water supply has managed to stay consistently within EU limits). I hope it's not toxic, but we don't all seem to have died. (To be strictly fair, it is unlikely that you'd be ingesting more than 20-50ug/l, those are upper limits above, but depends on your water system).

Yes, there are safe levels of aluminium to ingest and given how quickly the stuff degrades and sticks to everything, you are almost certainly breathing it in as you type.

gar32 · 03-09-2017 6:27pm

I am not anti vax I am pro safer vaccines.

A family members 4 day old baby died after vaccine and the documents went missing. (Poland 18 years ago)

After years of worry and reading about vaccines I know the danger just like I know about the sicknesses the mostly prevent. After reading this treat I see people trying to make it vaxx vs anti vaxxed. It is far from that and some vaccines have saved millions others are not so needed. Each needs to be look at before getting a vaccine. Until the corruption, lies stop and the subject is looked at openly and honestly. There is a growing group of "better vaccine" people who have had children with very bad reaction. This group just want the world to know vaccines are far from 100% safe and all the studies paid for my the manufacturers will not find any link. You can not find a link if your not paid to look for it.

Safer vaccines !!!

Discodog · 03-09-2017 6:28pm

Orion wrote: »

Suppose an adult Jehovah's Witness decides she doesn't want a life saving blood transfusion. Should she be allowed deny her child a transfusion?

No. Children should only be subjected to the religion of their parents when they are old enough to understand it & the counter argument.

The anti vaxers are a group that use disinformation that will lead to premature, unnecessary death. They aren't terrorists but they aren't far off.

Discodog · 03-09-2017 6:30pm

gar32 wrote: »

I am not anti vax I am pro safer vaccines.

A family members 4 day old baby died after vaccine and the documents went missing. (Poland 18 years ago)

After years of worry and reading about vaccines I know the danger just like I know about the sicknesses the mostly prevent. After reading this treat I see people trying to make it vaxx vs anti vaxxed. It is far from that and some vaccines have saved millions others are not so needed. Each needs to be look at before getting a vaccine. Until the corruption, lies stop and the subject is looked at openly and honestly. There is a growing group of "better vaccine" people who have had children with very bad reaction. This group just want the world to know vaccines are far from 100% safe and all the studies paid for my the manufacturers will not find any link. You can not find a link if your not paid to look for it.

Such as ?

ancapailldorcha · 03-09-2017 6:42pm

gar32 wrote: »

I am not anti vax I am pro safer vaccines.

A family members 4 day old baby died after vaccine and the documents went missing. (Poland 18 years ago)

After years of worry and reading about vaccines I know the danger just like I know about the sicknesses the mostly prevent. After reading this treat I see people trying to make it vaxx vs anti vaxxed. It is far from that and some vaccines have saved millions others are not so needed. Each needs to be look at before getting a vaccine. Until the corruption, lies stop and the subject is looked at openly and honestly. There is a growing group of "better vaccine" people who have had children with very bad reaction. This group just want the world to know vaccines are far from 100% safe and all the studies paid for my the manufacturers will not find any link. You can not find a link if your not paid to look for it.

Safer vaccines !!!

I smell a crock here. I'm sorry about your family member but blaming a vaccine for their death is like blaming a song someone was listening to before they had a heart attack. It sounds like your trying to push the anti-vaxxer agenda in a less toxic form so I'm not buying it.

Jawgap · 03-09-2017 6:44pm

gar32 wrote: »

I am not anti vax I am pro safer vaccines.

A family members 4 day old baby died after vaccine and the documents went missing. (Poland 18 years ago)

After years of worry and reading about vaccines I know the danger just like I know about the sicknesses the mostly prevent. After reading this treat I see people trying to make it vaxx vs anti vaxxed. It is far from that and some vaccines have saved millions others are not so needed. Each needs to be look at before getting a vaccine. Until the corruption, lies stop and the subject is looked at openly and honestly. There is a growing group of "better vaccine" people who have had children with very bad reaction. This group just want the world to know vaccines are far from 100% safe and all the studies paid for my the manufacturers will not find any link. You can not find a link if your not paid to look for it.

Safer vaccines !!!

No vaccine, no treatment and no medicine will ever be 100% safe......if that's the standard then we'd never treat anyone.

Should we have held off administering the BCG vaccine and just kept building sanatoria and buying industrial quantities of streptomycin until we had a "better vaccine" (whatever that means)?

Capt'n Midnight · 03-09-2017 6:57pm

Jawgap wrote: »

No vaccine, no treatment and no medicine will ever be 100% safe......if that's the standard then we'd never treat anyone.

Should we have held off administering the BCG vaccine and just kept building sanatoria and buying industrial quantities of streptomycin until we had a "better vaccine" (whatever that means)?

Industrial quantities of streptomycin wouldn't be any use anymore because antibiotic resistance.

Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis is something you don't want.

mrkiscool2 · 03-09-2017 7:03pm

gar32 wrote: »

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/injectingaluminum

gar32 wrote: »

So the world expert on Aluminium say in that movie.

"The give a safe limit for Aluminium in vaccines. How do they know? I don't know & I have worked with Aluminium for 30 years. Aluminium is toxic."

I actually don't believe you've given this as a source. Firstly, the people making the movie are anti-vaxx. Especially with your "I'm not anti-vaxx" below, this flies directly in the face of it.

Secondly, this "leading expert" clearly isn't a leading expert in medicinal ligands. Do you even understand what's in some of the antibiotics you take? Some of that stuff, if isolated to elemental form, is fcuking lethal. The reason it makes you better and doesn't kill you is because it has been devised in such a way that most of the ill-effects have been removed by binding it to other compounds. Like, you haven't disputed this claim and your evidence is biased at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

gar32 wrote: »

I am not anti vax I am pro safer vaccines.

A family members 4 day old baby died after vaccine and the documents went missing. (Poland 18 years ago)

After years of worry and reading about vaccines I know the danger just like I know about the sicknesses the mostly prevent. After reading this treat I see people trying to make it vaxx vs anti vaxxed. It is far from that and some vaccines have saved millions others are not so needed. Each needs to be look at before getting a vaccine. Until the corruption, lies stop and the subject is looked at openly and honestly. There is a growing group of "better vaccine" people who have had children with very bad reaction. This group just want the world to know vaccines are far from 100% safe and all the studies paid for my the manufacturers will not find any link. You can not find a link if your not paid to look for it.

Safer vaccines !!!

Firstly, babies aren't supposed to be given vaccines at 4 days old. If this really did happen, someone messed up. But it was down to human error, not the vaccine. The vaccine may have been the cause (a baby at 4 days old would have a really terrible immune system, they probably weren't able to handle the dosage meant for a 8 week old) but it wasn't the reason, it was due to bad medical practice. So, sorry about your family member, but it was the doctors fault.

Secondly, you clearly don't know how medical regulations work. Do you know it is illegal to put any treatment out there that hasn't been rigorously tested? Or does that point not matter to you in the slightest? The amount of time it takes for a normal drug/vaccine to reach the market from the first successful test is still an absolute age! And all vaccines are needed, why would they be given if they weren't needed? They try and prevent both the disease and harm from that disease to the patient.

You're trying to dress this up as "safer vaccines" and, sorry, I'm not buying it. You are clearly anti-vaxx (even your own situation, your blaming the vaccine instead of the doctor) and are just trying to say "But safer vaccines!". Vaccines are quite safe, safer than a lot of things.

Also, acting like you know what you are talking about when you don't even understand the science behind even the most simple chemical changes to elements and compounds is ludicrous. Stop it. Science fetishisation is bad enough, but then you get people like these documentary makers and others pretending they know what the hell they are talking about, leading to the spread of false information which eventually leads to fiascoes like this.

Jawgap · 03-09-2017 7:03pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Industrial quantities of streptomycin wouldn't be any use anymore because antibiotic resistance.

Extensively drug-resistant tuberculosis is something you don't want.

I'm aware, but I was just thinking back to when the 1947 Health Act came in......if Noël Browne had said, "build the hospitals, buy the antibiotics but hold off on the BCG vaccine until a better one comes along" we'd never have changed it's endemic status.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-09-2017 7:17pm

gar32 wrote: »

So the world expert on Aluminium say in that movie.

"The give a safe limit for Aluminium in vaccines. How do they know? I don't know & I have worked with Aluminium for 30 years. Aluminium is toxic."

Thin foil is aluminium as are pots and pan's and takeaway containers and drink cans and the foil on packets. It's used to remove particles from tap water. Aluminium forms 8% of the Earth's crust so it's not like you can avoid the stuff, we've evolved with it for the last few billion years.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782734/

Other products containing aluminium
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782734/table/T7/

Samaris · 03-09-2017 7:19pm

I pointed out to him that he drinks aluminium every time he takes a sup of water due to alum being used in the treatment of drinking water (in rather large quantities). Unsurprisingly, he ignored it and changed to another line of attack.

gctest50 · 03-09-2017 7:20pm

"mrkiscool2 wrote: »

......

Secondly, you clearly don't know how medical regulations work. Do you know it is illegal to put any treatment out there that hasn't been rigorously tested?.... .

Which is lovely, except the likes of Cetero exist :

About 100 drugs, including sophisticated chemotherapy compounds and addictive prescription painkillers, had been approved for sale in the United States at least in part on the strength of Cetero Houston's tainted tests

Guy:Incognito · 03-09-2017 7:22pm

The "world leader in aluminium" isn't a double glazing salesman by any chance ,is he ?:)

mrkiscool2 · 03-09-2017 7:27pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Which is lovely, except the likes of Cetero exist :

Cool, great debunking point there! It's not like the people who did that can be charged with crimes, fined heavily, forced to pay compensation...you know, things that adversely affect the company. Also, it doesn't take away from anything else in the point about vaccines.

Samaris · 03-09-2017 7:31pm

gctest50 wrote: »

Which is lovely, except the likes of Cetero exist :

Grando, since you seem to take any medical scandal as being proof that they're all up to something, I assume you never take any sort of medication yourself.

If you do, then that above is a complete red herring.

Of course there have been dodgy medical practitioners and dodgy studies. These are major scandals when they break. There have been dodgy practitioners in every area of science, healthcare, religion and any other area of human practice.

However, the stuff you're talking about isn't amongst them. Because these have been widely tested and proven safe. Okay, just to narrow things down a bit, please give a list of which vaccines you reckon are dangerous, why, and what they treat.

I'm fed up with this generalised "vaccines are bad" "vaccines are good" malarky. Let's work with some actual details now please, because we could keep this going in circles forever.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 03-09-2017 7:32pm

Medical technology is what is making the human race live longer. Yes we absolutely need to be stringent with regards safety and quality but there is always going to be some risk with every vaccine, drug and procedure.

Everything is a question of weighing up the risks and benefits. My missus is a radiographer so regularly exposes people to radiation. There is no known safe amount of radiation but the ability to diagnosis medical issues earlier, quicker and more accurately outweighs the exposure. It is then medically justified.

Only way to be sure is to go completely natural and reject all aspects of medicine. Not something I would condone.

Samaris · 03-09-2017 7:35pm

Karla Future Whirlwind wrote: »

Only way to be sure is to go completely natural and reject all aspects of medicine. Not something I would condone.

That works right up until it's pointed out that arsenic, aconite and mercury are perfectly natural though!

The poison is in the dose. First rule of pharmacopoeia.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 03-09-2017 7:37pm

Samaris wrote: »

That works right up until it's pointed out that arsenic, aconite and mercury are perfectly natural though!

The poison is in the dose. First rule of pharmacopoeia.

Yeah you're right actually. Even trying to go out of my way I cannot even remotely justify abandoning modern medicine!

Jawgap · 03-09-2017 7:40pm

Homeopathy......all natural......yer only man!!!!

......and I'll believe in it when I see Homeopaths sans Frontieres containing an Ebola outbreak, or even an outbreak of athlete's foot

mariaalice · 03-09-2017 7:57pm

Its pointless arguing with logic, those who are against vaccinations its belief without evidence but more importantly its a personality type they are against vaccines before they even heard of vaccines but fair play for trying.

The other type motivated by guilt or regret and have woven some sort of story to make it acceptable to themselves those I have a small bit of sympathy for, does not make it right though.

Samaris · 03-09-2017 8:05pm

I have a lot of sympathy for those who have seen their happy, outgoing child regress suddenly into a dark space that the parent cannot understand. Parents asking themselves why it's happened to their child, was it something they did, was it that glass of white wine one evening at 12 weeks, was it that one sneaky cigarette that time, was it because the mother slipped and fell while pregnant, was it something they should have seen earlier, was it something wrong with me or my partner's genes, am I somehow responsible for this... and then people telling them no, it was the vaccinations they got at more or less the same time as the regression started. Diverts blame (not that blame was warrented), gives a focus, a reason for this horribly unfair thing. And it was roughly around the time of the vaccinations...

Yes, I do have sympathy for those parents. But what's the alternative? Wait until the child is five or six? What happens regarding kindergarten and all the potential infections that can get around there? What about the risks of having your child out and about at an age where they're getting into everything and babbling happily at strangers. And autistic children will continue to express the outward signs of autism at around the same age, because that's just when it happens to show.

...And if I'm quite honest, I know well that if the vaccinations were put off to a later date and society and rules around early childhood upheaved (like age of starting playschool/kindergarten/school), people would find another reason to be suspicious of vaccination. It's just how people are.

mulbot · 03-09-2017 8:12pm

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I actually don't believe you've given this as a source. Firstly, the people making the movie are anti-vaxx. Especially with your "I'm not anti-vaxx" below, this flies directly in the face of it.

Secondly, this "leading expert" clearly isn't a leading expert in medicinal ligands. Do you even understand what's in some of the antibiotics you take? Some of that stuff, if isolated to elemental form, is fcuking lethal. The reason it makes you better and doesn't kill you is because it has been devised in such a way that most of the ill-effects have been removed by binding it to other compounds. Like, you haven't disputed this claim and your evidence is biased at best and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Firstly, babies aren't supposed to be given vaccines at 4 days old. If this really did happen, someone messed up. But it was down to human error, not the vaccine. The vaccine may have been the cause (a baby at 4 days old would have a really terrible immune system, they probably weren't able to handle the dosage meant for a 8 week old) but it wasn't the reason, it was due to bad medical practice. So, sorry about your family member, but it was the doctors fault.

Secondly, you clearly don't know how medical regulations work. Do you know it is illegal to put any treatment out there that hasn't been rigorously tested? Or does that point not matter to you in the slightest? The amount of time it takes for a normal drug/vaccine to reach the market from the first successful test is still an absolute age! And all vaccines are needed, why would they be given if they weren't needed? They try and prevent both the disease and harm from that disease to the patient.

You're trying to dress this up as "safer vaccines" and, sorry, I'm not buying it. You are clearly anti-vaxx (even your own situation, your blaming the vaccine instead of the doctor) and are just trying to say "But safer vaccines!". Vaccines are quite safe, safer than a lot of things.

Also, acting like you know what you are talking about when you don't even understand the science behind even the most simple chemical changes to elements and compounds is ludicrous. Stop it. Science fetishisation is bad enough, but then you get people like these documentary makers and others pretending they know what the hell they are talking about, leading to the spread of false information which eventually leads to fiascoes like this.

The Hep B vaccine is given to Babies in the US at birth

Samaris · 03-09-2017 8:17pm

mulbot wrote: »

The Hep B vaccine is given to Babies in the US at birth

May not be the case at the moment, as there's a worldwide shortage of it at the moment (I know as I'm supposed to get the dratted thing and it's like gold dust).

Bear in mind also that the -first- dose is given within 24hrs of birth. There are two more doses, spread apart by several months. (Overall point taken, mind you.)

Anti-vaxxers

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