Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

johnnyskeleton · 17-08-2017 09:46PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The thread title is literally "violent right wing vs left wing clashes in the US". How that gives you the impression that we can only discuss one example of violence from one side is entirely beyond me. If someone creates a thread about the Kinahan vs Hutch feud in general, would you accuse anybody referencing violence by the Kinahans as "whataboutery" because th Regency Hotel shooting carried out by the Hutches got more media coverage, or involved higher calibre weaponry, or resulted in more casualties?

Mod note:

Enough backseat moderation and lazy generalisations. Specific serious debating points only

marcus001 · 18-08-2017 12:50AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you arguing that the people who opposed the fascists in Charlottesville are advocating the elimination of private property? Because that's an incredible stretch.

And if that's not your argument - if you're trying to make a point about communists in general - what does it have to do with Charlottesville?

The post I was responding to was

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

Since when has this discussion been confined to Charlottesville? Look at the thread title.

marcus001 · 18-08-2017 01:05AM

Antifa and Neo-Nazis are two rival groups of hooligans. They show up in masks armed with poles, bats, knives and helmets. Having an argument over who started it is as fruitful as watching paint dry. The confrontation is mutual.

On another point, anyone who thinks Antifa are some noble defenders of minorities is utterly misguided. I actually know a few people in it over here. Some of them, particularly the older ones, are lifelong activists, but a large proportion of them are just thugs, pure and simple. They were thugs in school and they're thugs now. If they lived in England in the 90's they'd be fighting rival football firms, and if you place this type of person in the USA in 2017 they'll end up fighting rival ideologues.

The Neo-Nazis, although I don't know any are likely just the same type of person they just happen to be right wing instead of left wing. Antifa and Neo-Nazism are both fuelled by pure anger and self-loathing.

wonderfullife · 18-08-2017 04:29AM

marcus001 wrote: »

The Neo-Nazis, although I don't know any are likely just the same type of person they just happen to be right wing instead of left wing. Antifa and Neo-Nazism are both fuelled by pure anger and self-loathing.

I'm transcribing a twitter thread below.

"When Hitler marched into Poland in 1939, my grandma was two years old. It was not immediately obvious that anything was changing in her town. When she was 4 years old, she was playing outside when she suddenly heard yelling and screaming. She looked across the yard to see Nazis and to see the dead body of her three year old neighbor boy who had been playing loudly in his yard. The Nazis were annoyed by the noise.

They shot him dead on the spot. 3 years old. Dead from a Nazi bullet. A couple of months later, my grandmother and her family were woken up very early in the morning. They were told to get up and go outside. They were marched to the train station. Her father got on one train. Her mother, her baby sisters, and her were put on another. On the first day my grandma, who was five now, was in Majdanek, she and the other children were told to line up outside before breakfast.

The Nazi soldier counted each child.

One...two...three...four...five...six...seven...eight...nine...the tenth child was shot. The soldier told the children that any bad child would be shot. So they must work and not complain or be loud. My grandma was a Polish Catholic, which was only a couple steps above a Polish Jew. One of the officer's wives decided she wanted a child so she "adopted" my grandma. Changed her name. Told her her mother was dead. And that she was a German now.

The day the news broke that the Allies were coming to Poland, the German officer and his wife left in a hurry. In so much of a hurry that they forgot my grandma, their special new daughter. She was found in one of the officer's homes after 3 days alone. The Red Cross took her in, and they asked her her name, which she barely remembered. They spent six months looking for her family.

They were eventually found, somehow all alive. Aunts and uncles weren't, but mother, father, and baby sister were. My grandma did not remember the Nazi officer and his wife with fondness. She did not view them as humans or benefactors. And she did not tell me this story until the day she took me to the gates of Majdanek. Where she broke down screaming at the memories.

That was in 2001. 56 years after she was rescued by the Red Cross. Those horrors did not fade with time. They were ingrained in her brain. And if you believe that Neo-Nazis are "good people" or they "deserve a voice", I remind you of a three year old boy shot dead.

That is what giving the Nazis a voice in 1933 led to. It led to my grandma sobbing outside a place where she was imprisoned. The Nazis did not start with these things. They started with a voice. And a message. And it ended in unspeakable horrors.

And that? That is why Neo-Nazis don't deserve a voice. Because those they worship didn't just talk."

They're not the same. Anybody equating neo-nazis to antifa should hang their heads in shame.

red ears · 18-08-2017 04:40AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'm transcribing a twitter thread below.

They're not the same. Anybody equating neo-nazis to antifa should hang their heads in shame.

That is how Nazism progressed. How did the gulags progress? I think antifa are not good either. They appear to have a very authoritarian streak. I don't like where they may lead us too either. We need to keep an eye on the Nazi elements of the WN movement, the violent elements of BLM and the authoritarian elements of Anti-fa. Stop giving antifa a free pass.

jooksavage · 18-08-2017 06:40AM

red ears wrote: »

That is how Nazism progressed. How did the gulags progress? I think antifa are not good either. They appear to have a very authoritarian streak. I don't like where they may lead us too either. We need to keep an eye on the Nazi elements of the WN movement, the violent elements of BLM and the authoritarian elements of Anti-fa. Stop giving antifa a free pass.

The same argument was being made about trade unions in 1930s. At best it distracts from the real threat presented by neo-nazis, at worst it rationalises their existence.

The obsession with the counter protesters certainly isn't a mainstream concern. I haven't seen ANY senate Republicans temper their condemnation of the Charlottesville fascists by levelling criticism at the "other side". And before anyone suggests the likes of Lindsay Graham or John McCain are being cowed by the left, that's not happening.

Christy42 · 18-08-2017 07:13AM

red ears wrote: »

That is how Nazism progressed. How did the gulags progress? I think antifa are not good either. They appear to have a very authoritarian streak. I don't like where they may lead us too either. We need to keep an eye on the Nazi elements of the WN movement, the violent elements of BLM and the authoritarian elements of Anti-fa. Stop giving antifa a free pass.

Are they as bad as nazis? That is what many posters have been saying and the argument being countered.

red ears · 18-08-2017 07:32AM

Christy42 wrote: »

Are they as bad as nazis? That is what many posters have been saying and the argument being countered.

Which Nazi's. The true Nazi's of 1940s Germany or the ones like Gavin McInnes, Lauren Southern and Baked Alaska who have been labeled Nazi's in 2017?

jooksavage · 18-08-2017 07:44AM

red ears wrote: »

Which Nazi's. The true Nazi's of 1940s Germany or the ones like Gavin McInnes, Lauren Southern and Baked Alaska who have been labeled Nazi's in 2017?

Grand, if you think the likes of Baked Alaska have been unfairly "labelled" you're really pinning your colours to the mast.

red ears · 18-08-2017 07:46AM

The 20th century have shown us where both movements can lead us. The Nazi's to what happened in WW2 and anti-fa left wing authoritarianism to what happened in the Soviet union, China's cultural Revolution and Cambodia.

red ears · 18-08-2017 07:55AM

jooksavage wrote: »

The obsession with the counter protesters certainly isn't a mainstream concern. I haven't seen ANY senate Republicans temper their condemnation of the Charlottesville fascists by levelling criticism at the "other side

Because they are too afraid such is the climate we live in. Where people are labelled a Nazi on a whim. This sadly is a symptom of the growing authoritarian left hysteria.

I don't know a lot about baked Alaska btw but simply by mentioning him has been enough for you to label me a Nazi lol. Kind of proving my point about why politicians fear going against the mob. I suppose I better Google him now to learn all about my new bedfellow.

Christy42 · 18-08-2017 07:59AM

red ears wrote: »

Which Nazi's. The true Nazi's of 1940s Germany or the ones like Gavin McInnes, Lauren Southern and Baked Alaska who have been labeled Nazi's in 2017?

Shocking that you can't even march alongside a nazi flag and chant anti Jewish slogans without being labelled a nazi these days.

I am a little confused as to how much more evidence you want here? Just repeating that they have been labelled as such on a whim does not make it so.

pitifulgod · 18-08-2017 08:09AM

red ears wrote: »

Which Nazi's. The true Nazi's of 1940s Germany or the ones like Gavin McInnes, Lauren Southern and Baked Alaska who have been labeled Nazi's in 2017?

A couple of pages back, I went through every single name on the poster for the rally. Only two didn't self describe as a white nationalist or supremacist... So yep they are very much so Neo Nazis. They admire the likes of Hitler. They chant "blood and soil" and engage in Nazi salutes. It's absolutely that you're intent on diminishing the seriousness of rally and misrepresenting what the rally stood for.

jooksavage · 18-08-2017 08:13AM

red ears wrote: »

Because they are too afraid such is the climate we live in. Where people are labelled a Nazi on a whim. This sadly is a symptom of the growing authoritarian left hysteria.

Indeed, the likes of Lindsay Graham, Marco Rubio and Ted f***ing Cruz are afraid what liberals will say about them, right.

Fr Tod Umptious · 18-08-2017 08:18AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I think going for a name like Emancipation Park instead of Oak Park would be a good thing. The reason I think there is so much simmering hate is because the US hasn't really faced up to their history, and changing names to neutral ones from names like Lee Park just hides the issue further.

If the US decides that it wants to be a slave owning country again then they can bring back these statues and Confederate symbols. Seeing as they do not believe this I think it is right to face up to the past. If that is by having people walk past parks that associate the past or statues of slaves in chains, as there is memorials here in Ireland about the famine, then so be it. Until they don't have a honest conversation about their past I don't think they can truly move on to the future.

But in all ready tense racial environment using the name Emancipation Park just drives another wedge between people.

If the US needs to face up to it's history as you say then why start in 1865 and not 1776, when people like Washington were quite content to be slave owners.

I read a few years ago that students at Prenston wanted something named after Woodrow Wilson to be changed because Wilson supported segregation.

Why start at Wilson, why not go back all the way.

pitifulgod · 18-08-2017 08:20AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But in all ready tense racial environment using the name Emancipation Park just drives another wedge between people.

If the US needs to face up to it's history as you say then why start in 1865 and not 1776, when people like Washington were quite content to be slave owners.

I read a few years ago that students at Prenston wanted something named after Woodrow Wilson to be changed because Wilson supported segregation.

Why start at Wilson, why not go back all the way.

The end of slavery is driving a wedge? Then it's against a pretty dodgy group of people. The statue is also a Jim Crowe Era statue from 20s...

20Cent · 18-08-2017 08:26AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But in all ready tense racial environment using the name Emancipation Park just drives another wedge between people.

If the US needs to face up to it's history as you say then why start in 1865 and not 1776, when people like Washington were quite content to be slave owners.

I read a few years ago that students at Prenston wanted something named after Woodrow Wilson to be changed because Wilson supported segregation.

Why start at Wilson, why not go back all the way.

Who would be offended by the name emancipation park?
Those who would prefer it named after the guy who wanted slavery.

red ears · 18-08-2017 08:32AM

Anyway back to the progression thing. If alaska has turned into a neo nazi then f**k him. I'm more interested in where the likes of antifa and tearing down statues may lead us. I'm reading plenty about the fear that these nazi types may lead us back to 1940's Germany. Where will the ever increasing intolerant authoritarian left and antifa lead us if that progresses. Did Mao and Stalin not progress from somewhere too? 100 million dead in the 20th century due to that movement and 60 million dead due to nazi idology. I condemn both sides.

Btw ban Nazi flags. Prosecute anyone carrying them.

Akrasia · 18-08-2017 08:39AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Again, this is not correct. The extreme left is just as racist and sexist as the extreme right.

Absolutely not!
Look at the make-up of the two marches. The Nazis were almost entirely white men. The counter protesters were men and women of all backgrounds

The AntiFa movement is mostly anarchists and libertarian socialists. Egalitarianism is a founding principle of Anarchism.

Danzy · 18-08-2017 08:39AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'm transcribing a twitter thread below.

They're not the same. Anybody equating neo-nazis to antifa should hang their heads in shame.

They are not the same, but they are not as different as you make out either.

They are closer to each other than they are to the rest of society.

Neither have anything positive to offer most people, if you are middle class and you have an authoritarian streak, find that you need to control people, and get turned on by the idea of violence then you'll find a home in Antifa or in militant far right, the ideology is 2nd to that in most cases.

That doesn't mean that all those that protest or organize against blatant fascists are assholes, no their movement is being hijacked by people like Antifa.

Akrasia · 18-08-2017 09:14AM

Hans Bricks wrote: »

It's amazing that the hard left wing in America have now given these obese, gun toting neo nazi scumbags & redneck militias an arguably legitimate excuse outside of promoting outright fascism, to congregate in force for protests now. It doesn't strike me as coincidence that it's being ratcheted up in response to Trump's election either.

Look, the Nazis were having their march. This could have happened in either of two ways.
1. They have a march, they hold up their flaming torches shouting their nazi slogans, intimidating the local minority groups, all the while the police protect them and there are some peaceful protesters but they get to have their speeches calling for a new aryan nation

Do you think this would encourage or discourage the Nazi movement? They would have loved for it to happen this way, this would be their dream, that they could openly flaunt their Nazi ideology and nobody tried to stop them.

2. People tried to shut down their protest. They blockaded their route, prevented their speeches, intimidated the Nazis and brought attention on to who they are, got their faces all over the media, highlighted the fact that the President of the USA seems to sympathise with them, thereby revealing to the nation how much of a serious problem this has become and forcing their representatives to choose a side.

The fact that the nazis and 'alt right' will use the violence as some kind of propaganda victory ignores the fact that if the whole event was peaceful and they managed to hold their full rally, they would have called that a victory too.

The protesters are the people who remember that haunting passage from Martin Niemoller after WW2

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

The point is that everyone needs to stand up to these hate groups and prevent them from getting traction. These people want to take power. If they take power, then they will start with their political enemies, and when they are eliminated, there will be nobody left to stand up for the ordinary citizens.

By equivocating the socialists and anti-fascists with the nazis, you are saying that you're fine with Trump or some other fascist who gets into power cracking down on these anti fascists in dawn raids because they are 'violent thugs'

And when he's done that, he'll move on to the trade unionists if they protest or go on strike, and then social democrats will be targetted, and when they're gone, he'll move on to immigrants and minorities, and the opposition will be too weak to stop him, and then before you realise it, they'll be coming after everyone who isn't a Nazi.

All this for statues. Statues that have existed for decades & generations in Southern states and are there so long now that a lot of moderate southerners now view them as part of their "heritage". Don't get me wrong, taking them down from the likes of Baltimore and overtly African American districts is common sense. We can argue til we're blue in the face that it was all about slavery, a lot of other people would argue that it was originally a war of secession and state rights vs federal law and Big Brother up in the North East. Either way this whole thing is inevitably going to antagonize the extreme spectrum of white, christian America.

This whole thing has just devolved to a promotional platform served on a plate to Nazi Nazis and those other insufferable basement dwellers ANTIFA. I really think this whole sudden Confederate statue outrage has just been fuelled and overblown by bored, over sensitive left wing radicals who read too much VICE news. It's more a trendy cause du jour for 2017.

Symbolism is important, when the confederates are allowed to fly their confederate flags and nobody says anything because they have a right to do so, they have a really easy way to guage the strength of their movement. First it's one confederate flag outside someone's house, then the neighbour puts one up, then every house has one except the black family at the end of the road who are forced to move out because the environment has turned hostile, then the local council votes to put up a confederate flag outside the town hall...

So we have two choices, we could call to ban the symbols, which is not good for free speech, or we vote to use public space to display symbols of peace and harmony, and remove any symbolism that represents the ideology that the majority of people are opposed to.

These public monuments are now being removed by elected officials because the majority of the community have had been made aware of them and are disgusted by them.
While this happens, we should celebrate it. It means the Nazis and fascists are still politically weak. If it was the opposite, and if the councils were voting to commission new confederate monuments, then it would be a signal that very dark times are ahead.

Akrasia · 18-08-2017 09:31AM

Danzy wrote: »

They are not the same, but they are not as different as you make out either.

They are closer to each other than they are to the rest of society.

Neither have anything positive to offer most people, if you are middle class and you have an authoritarian streak, find that you need to control people, and get turned on by the idea of violence then you'll find a home in Antifa or in militant far right, the ideology is 2nd to that in most cases.

That doesn't mean that all those that protest or organize against blatant fascists are assholes, no their movement is being hijacked by people like Antifa.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never actually talked face to face to anyone involved with the AntiFa movement

I'll also guess that you've never talked to anyone who would have been on the nazi march

They are completely different kinds of people.

Lots of trump supporters don't like antifa because antifa call them fascists. Well, when you're going around saying 'make america great again' and 'build the wall' and all the other white nationalist jingoism that Trump campaigned on, then guess what, you're a fascist.

We used to have to dance around that language, but Trump has revealed himself this week (not for the first time, there is nothing new in his support for David Duke and white supremacists and the people he chooses to surround himself with)

Christy42 · 18-08-2017 10:17AM

red ears wrote: »

Anyway back to the progression thing. If alaska has turned into a neo nazi then f**k him. I'm more interested in where the likes of antifa and tearing down statues may lead us. I'm reading plenty about the fear that these nazi types may lead us back to 1940's Germany. Where will the ever increasing intolerant authoritarian left and antifa lead us if that progresses. Did Mao and Stalin not progress from somewhere too? 100 million dead in the 20th century due to that movement and 60 million dead due to nazi idology. I condemn both sides.

Btw ban Nazi flags. Prosecute anyone carrying them.

Right but right now a lot more deaths and violence is coming from the alt right. I have seen little from the extreme left. Some violence at protests and....? Antifa are mainly acting as a response for the extreme right with counter protests or protests against extreme right speakers.

The extreme right has a list of deaths on its hands from this year alone. At what point do you admit we need to focus on the larger threat? OscarBravo had linked an impressive list with links of far right attacks this year. How many people have to die before it is a serious problem instead of simply lumped in with a some relatively minor stuff?

http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/164164615366/you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

As an addition has Antifa ever advocated a communist government at any point? This one I am asking about as I have not seen it (but could potentially have missed it).

Danzy · 18-08-2017 10:17AM

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've never actually talked face to face to anyone involved with the AntiFa movement

I'll also guess that you've never talked to anyone who would have been on the nazi march

They are completely different kinds of people.

Lots of trump supporters don't like antifa because antifa call them fascists. Well, when you're going around saying 'make america great again' and 'build the wall' and all the other white nationalist jingoism that Trump campaigned on, then guess what, you're a fascist.

We used to have to dance around that language, but Trump has revealed yhimself this week (not for the first time, there is nothing new in his support for David Duke and white supremacists and the people he chooses to surround himself with)

Actually you are incorrect. I have met Antifa members in America and German, I haven't met too many Nazis, they tend to be rare at meetings or campaigns run by left wing movements.

red ears · 18-08-2017 10:26AM

Christy42 wrote: »

Right but right now a lot more deaths and violence is coming from the alt right. I have seen little from the extreme left. Some violence at protests and....? Antifa are mainly acting as a response for the extreme right with counter protests or protests against extreme right speakers.

The extreme right has a list of deaths on its hands from this year alone. At what point do you admit we need to focus on the larger threat? OscarBravo had linked an impressive list with links of far right attacks this year. How many people have to die before it is a serious problem instead of simply lumped in with a some relatively minor stuff?

http://fozmeadows.tumblr.com/post/164164615366/you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

As an addition has Antifa ever advocated a communist government at any point? This one I am asking about as I have not seen it (but could potentially have missed it).

Wasn't a politician shot last year by a trump hater and some anti trump guy killed two people last week. And someone was shot in the stomach last year at one of those protests. I can't remember if he died.

20Cent · 18-08-2017 10:36AM

red ears wrote: »

Wasn't a politician shot last year by a trump hater and some anti trump guy killed two people last week. And someone was shot in the stomach last year at one of those protests. I can't remember if he died.

The guy shot in the stomach was shot by a trump supporter.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/25/shooting-milo-yiannopoulos-speech-seattle-charges

Carlos Orange · 18-08-2017 10:36AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Well, when you're going around saying 'make america great again' and 'build the wall' and all the other white nationalist jingoism that Trump campaigned on, then guess what, you're a fascist.
)

Only if you are from an alternative universe where being anti illegal immigration makes you a fascist and people constantly go on about how terrible Germany was in the 30s because of its strict immigration policies.

Christy42 · 18-08-2017 10:43AM

red ears wrote: »

Wasn't a politician shot last year by a trump hater and some anti trump guy killed two people last week. And someone was shot in the stomach last year at one of those protests. I can't remember if he died.

Whataboutery. Yes though I thought he lived (I hope so anyway as I am also unsure). Absolute scumbag and violence should be discouraged. I note that people have lost their jobs over jokingly threatening Trump which is fair enough. We need to be strong on this stuff from both sides. However it is a larger problem on one side and no one seems to be doing anything about it. You have two vicious attacks months apart (not to excuse them, we need to ensure people know it is unacceptable as was expressed at the time by democrat leaders )

The police are claiming that second incident was personal disputes (not sure if you are talking about the same one) but I guess that could be wrong at this early stage.

https://www.google.ie/amp/6abc.com/amp/police-man-killed-by-neighbor-after-dispute/2286340/

Akrasia · 18-08-2017 11:04AM

Danzy wrote: »

Actually you are incorrect. I have met Antifa members in America and German, I haven't met too many Nazis, they tend to be rare at meetings or campaigns run by left wing movements.

Ok, so when you were talking to the AntiFa members (or more accurately members of autonomous groups associated with the antifa movement) did any of them ever express a political view that indicates that they want to take political power and impose their will on others?

Antifa are explicitly anti authoritarian. Their tactics are to use direct action to protest people and events that they view as fascist and white supremacist

Are they pacifists? No, the movement doesn't have any leadership, there is no committee that discusses tactics or which protests to attend. Antifa is a banner that us used by autonomous activist groups when their purpose is to directly challenge white supremacists and fascists.

The rise of the far right is making Antifa activism more prominent, but also more important.

Saruhashi · 18-08-2017 11:15AM

Akrasia wrote: »

Antifa are explicitly anti authoritarian. Their tactics are to use direct action to protest people and events that they view as fascist and white supremacist.

Maybe I am wrong here but I thought there were pretty strong links between Antifa groups and support for communism?

Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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