Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

mynamejeff wrote: »

why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?

Because believing that the state should outlaw all private property isn't seen as a dangerous idea on par with Nazism by people who don't know their history.

20Cent wrote: »

One side wants people to be called by their preferred pronouns and stop Ann Coulter or Milo speaking at their college.
The other wants to kill all the Jews and other minorities in a 4th Reich.


Bit like saying a kid kicking over a sandcastle is the same as bombing Hiroshima.

Unfortunately, groups like Antida have muddied the waters for those opposing fascist thugs, historically that type of person has killed as many as the fascist.

The enemy of my enemy can be my friend but these 2 subsets don't differ in corpses.

Danzy wrote: »

Unfortunately, groups like Antida have muddied the waters for those opposing fascist thugs, historically that type of person has killed as many as the fascist.

The enemy of my enemy can be my friend but these 2 subsets don't differ in corpses.

Thats assuming antifa are all or want communism which they don't. Only one side is muddying the waters here.

Anyone know what the hell the police were doing funnelling the Nazi gurriers from the Park into the direction of the Antifa and BLM thugs.

Like fire and gasoline. It's a wonder there wasn't more deaths.

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

manual_man wrote: »

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

It is literally the definition of false equivalence to equate white supremacists with antifa. Antifa don't support anything equivalent to an ethnostate, they do not engage in hate speech. They have tactics that many disagree with for credible reasons. Secondly, they were not responsible for the events that occurred on Saturday.

People on this thread have claimed the rally wasn't one of fascists, they have tried to diminish it as traditional conservatives with some bad elements. Every single person who attended that rally are condoning the likes of the KKK and Neo Nazis. They are very much so not "good people". Meanwhile the counter protesters oppose them, fair play to them.

manual_man wrote: »

Do we not think 'false equivalence' - this latest buzz word(s), is not only a very childish way to try and paint things, but also very dangerous?

How hard is it to condemn bad acts (no matter the side, no matter the banner) for being bad acts full stop? There's real nasty stuff happening all around us. Dangers manifesting in many different ways. And unless ALL are addressed and called out, well then we're in trouble aren't we? The danger in seeking to compare, or use 'equivalence', is to miss the point. And that simple point is that ALL forms of hatred and bigotry need to be denounced. When we concentrate on that, we have a better chance!

Because people who come out and say "but what about", in regards to situations like these usually do so to excuse a side they find attractive.

Comparing and contrasting things is fine. But, the criteria has to be established before one can do so.

However, what we have here are two different things. One the one hand we have a group whose political beliefs includes marginalising (and up to exterminating) those they find racially and ethinically undesirable. Elements that people can't control. One cannot have a say about the colour they are born with, or the racial background they find themselves part of. Accidents of birth are never a legitimate reason for targeting anybody.

And on the other hand we have a group that oppose fascistic politcial ideologies, including the ones outlined above.

While, at times their methods may cross over in a violent way, there is absolutely nothing else by which a valid comparison can be made.

Antifa can be criticised for their violence. But they cannot be used as an excuse for a neo-nazi world view.

That's why it's a 'false equivalence'.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

Missing out on a talk isn't really comparable to mass murder and genocide is it?

I can't help thinking a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with all of this.

I've seen someone's back of the envelope calculations on the number of active participants in white supremacy/KKK type organisations and they put it at like <0.1% of the US population. I'm guessing 90%+ of people would have absolutely no sympathy for any extreme intolerance these fringe groups might harbour. Or am I naive? Yet there's 50+ pages of posts here - I don't they're deserving of anything like this amount of attention.

I myself would hold these far-right groups in contempt and if any group such as Antifa take exception to this then by all means let them protest, but allowing it to happen the same day and same location is just asking for trouble.

I know very little of American history and even less about how the legacy of slavery and racial segregation affects US people today. If these 'wounds' are still raw and there's a quorum for those in favour of taking down some of these statues then it's a debate that should be had. But the reaction to the recent events all seems a bit hasty.

I'm not sure what good is achieved by dredging up the injustices done 100+ years ago, apart from giving us an appreciation that we live in much more enlightened times today. Or at least I think we do. We're better served by looking forward and trying to build a better future and I'd see much of this week's bickering as a distraction.

Ronaldinho wrote: »

I can't help thinking a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with all of this.

I've seen someone's back of the envelope calculations on the number of active participants in white supremacy/KKK type organisations and they put it at like <0.1% of the US population. I'm guessing 90%+ of people would have absolutely no sympathy for any extreme intolerance these fringe groups might harbour. Or am I naive? Yet there's 50+ pages of posts here - I don't they're deserving of anything like this amount of attention.

I myself would hold these far-right groups in contempt and if any group such as Antifa take exception to this then by all means let them protest, but allowing it to happen the same day and same location is just asking for trouble.

I know very little of American history and even less about how the legacy of slavery and racial segregation affects US people today. If these 'wounds' are still raw and there's a quorum for those in favour of taking down some of these statues then it's a debate that should be had. But the reaction to the recent events all seems a bit hasty.

I'm not sure what good is achieved by dredging up the injustices done 100+ years ago, apart from giving us an appreciation that we live in much more enlightened times today. Or at least I think we do. We're better served by looking forward and trying to build a better future and I'd see much of this week's bickering as a distraction.

Given it resulted in a terrorist attack (like the mosque in Canada, like the attack on the train that left two stabbed and a mass of other incidents linked here by OscarBravo) I think it is a big deal as those few people are causing a lot of damage.

pitifulgod wrote: »

It is literally the definition of false equivalence to equate white supremacists with antifa. Antifa don't support anything equivalent to an ethnostate, they do not engage in hate speech. They have tactics that many disagree with for credible reasons. Secondly, they were not responsible for the events that occurred on Saturday.

People on this thread have claimed the rally wasn't one of fascists, they have tried to diminish it as traditional conservatives with some bad elements. Every single person who attended that rally are condoning the likes of the KKK and Neo Nazis. They are very much so not "good people". Meanwhile the counter protesters oppose them, fair play to them.

You're totally missing the point I made. I'm personally not making comparisons of the bigotry that exists on both sides of the political debate. I find bigotry and hatred in all it's form abhorrent. And I find it astonishing that some people are seemingly very reluctant to simply agree on this point - instead constantly seeking to compare, as if to say "well I believe this type of shít is worse, so let's only worry about that!". It's a childish and dangerous viewpoint to adopt, because if we only focus on one type of bigotry and ignore others, then the ones we ignore will become bigger and more aggressive and intolerant. Evil takes it's shape in many different forms and I think that's something many people are finding difficult to grasp. It's just my wish that people keep their eyes open and seek to tackle hatred in ALL it's forms.

Peace out!

20Cent wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

The thing is some people wanted to hear Milo + Ann Coulter speak at their local colleges : what about their rights ; what about their rights ? Who exactly appointed Antifa as high judge to decide for everyone else who they can or can't hear speak at their local college ? If you wanted to go to a public meeting hosted by say Paul Murphy or Ruth Coppinger ; I disagree with both of them politically ; but just because I disagree with them does that give me the right to organise a mob shut down their public meeting and prevent you from hearing them speak ?

""  Missing out on a talk isn't really comparable to mass murder and genocide is it? ""

""  mass murder and genocide is it? "" 

If Milo or Ann Coulter ever called for "" mass murder and genocide "" you d have a point,  however I can,t find either one of them on the public record of either of them calling for "" mass murder and genocide "" .

oscarBravo wrote: »

"...on many sides. On many sides."

The problem with refusing to single out Nazis for condemnation is the same as the problem with retorting "all lives matter" to "black lives matter". It's dilution through generalisation.

It's also far too easy to sweep up any point of view you disagree with into the blanket condemnation. In a thread about an honest-to-god Nazi parade in an American town, we've seen several instances of the phrase "BLM thugs". The people who use that phrase, and the people who abet them by objecting to the calling out of Nazis for special condemnation, are working to equate the demand that black people be treated as equals with a philosophy that consciously set out to exterminate entire ethnic groups.

So, no: I won't be blending Nazis in with people who oppose fascism and people who disagree with police murdering black people for a wishy-washy blanket condemnation. I'll leave that to the shaved ape in the Oval Office.

Oh would you get off your high horse! Virtue signalling at it's very worst! Not to mention trying to misrepresent my words, which frankly is a disgusting thing to do! I couldn't have been more clear of my UNIVERSAL condemnation of all forms of bigotry, if it's beyond you to comprehend that that includes the neo nazi thugs and their despicable actions over the weekend, then that's on you, not me!