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Right-wing vs. Left-wing Clashes [MOD NOTE POST #1]

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Comments

  • #842
    jooksavage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    Nazis hold a rally. An actual NAZI RALLY... so we all need to talk about the LEFT?

    Not so long ago those on the right used to condemn liberals for their "moral relativism". It was a drum they beat day and night. How the worm has turned.

    Not every ying has a yang. Nazis don't. There are no equivalents on the "other side".


  • #843
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,000 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    marcus001 wrote: »
    It's an inconclusive video so I'm not prepared to agree with a half-baked conclusion.

    Any chance you'd like to reply to my question about your statement below?
    marcus001 wrote: »
    Its not a monument to his opinions its a monument to his military accomplishments.

    Heres the question again below in case you conveniently forgot it
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Ahh grand so its actually okay then to consider Hitler and his generals heros because of their military accomplishments?


  • #844
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Brian? wrote: »
    I shouldn't be laughing. But that guy in the green cycling helmet is the least intimidating Fascist ever.

    It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
    You can literally show them a group of nazi's charging into a crowd attacking them and the answer is but but but antifa. No wonder Donald got elected.


  • #845
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    20Cent wrote: »
    It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
    You can literally show them a group of nazi's charging into a crowd attacking them and the answer is but but but antifa. No wonder Donald got elected.

    Well it is the exact same tactics that were employed whenever Trump did something stupid.


  • #846
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    jooksavage wrote: »
    Nazis hold a rally. An actual NAZI RALLY... so we all need to talk about the LEFT?

    Not so long ago those on the right used to condemn liberals for their "moral relativism". It was a drum they beat day and night. How the worm has turned.

    Not every ying has a yang. Nazis don't. There are no equivalents on the "other side".

    I saw this link on another thread. It tallies the actual toll of right-wing violence so far this year, and is probably incomplete.
    In case you have trouble counting, Anon, that’s three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve shootings, three four five six arsons, two three four seven eight nine ten eleven stabbings, two three four five mob beatings, over 40 41 bomb threats and an acid attack by bigots, Islamophobes, nazis and racists so far this year. Eight Nine Eleven Twelve Fourteen Fifteen Sixteen Seventeen Eighteen Nineteen Twenty twenty-one twenty-two twenty-three twenty-four twenty-five twenty-six Twenty-seven Twenty-Eight people are dead because of these bigoted attacks and fifteen twenty-one twenty-two twenty-three twenty-five thirty-five thirty-seven thirty-nine fifty-eight were severely injured.

    But it’s anti-fascists that people should be worried about, right?

    “you should be branded as terrorists just as much as the KKK“

    Really, now? Anti-fascists are as much terrorists as the KKK, a terrorist organization which murdered over 3000 people in lynchings, arsons, bombings, etc. over its 150-year history, are we?

    Maybe it’s time you learned about the logical fallacy of false equivalence, Anon!


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  • #847
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I saw this link on another thread. It tallies the actual toll of right-wing violence so far this year, and is probably incomplete.

    Thanks. I had seen that somewhere and couldn't find it again.


  • #848
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    So you agree that they are terrorists.
    But now you're claiming that the people that they target aren't civilians? :confused:

    The Nazi's went to the march armed to the teeth. The had shield and sticks. There not "peaceful" protesters. They also murdered someone, so there terrorists.

    The apologetics for Nazi's again is astonishing. It really is something to behold, the complete and utter moral destruction of the right.


  • #849
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/kkk-permit-denied-cross-burning-stone-mountain-georgia


  • #850
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Any chance you'd like to reply to my question about your statement below?



    Heres the question again below in case you conveniently forgot it

    When I refused to take the bait the first time I assumed you'd give up.


  • #851
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,000 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    marcus001 wrote: »
    When I refused to take the bait the first time I assumed you'd give up.

    Ahh so you agree your logic is flawed and completely bull****


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  • #852
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Ahh so you agree your logic is flawed and completely bull****

    I don't answer loaded questions, troll.


  • #853
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    jooksavage wrote: »
    Nazis hold a rally. An actual NAZI RALLY... so we all need to talk about the LEFT?

    Not so long ago those on the right used to condemn liberals for their "moral relativism". It was a drum they beat day and night. How the worm has turned.

    Not every ying has a yang. Nazis don't. There are no equivalents on the "other side".
    The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because they have given plenty of reasons for people to talk about them + plenty of stuff to highlight , if they didn,t engage in constant violence/constant Intimidation towards  Trump supporters in general there wouldn,t be anything to talk about nor anything to highlight,  here they are in this video trying to Intimidate a fellow in a wheelchair/ a veteran, if any Trump supporters done the same as in trying to Intimidate people in wheelchairs it be highlighted an awful lot more.

    https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/897783655002775552

    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .


    425413.jpg


  • #854
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Ok so at an antifa rally you say they are mainly anarchists? So when the commie flag wavers turn up does that mean they have all turned commie?

    You do realise you are commenting in the role of a white supremacist apologist?
    The rally was organised and attended by white supremacists.
    The City council's decision to move the statue was a mere excuse to rally, unite the KKK, ALT-right, racists.
    Trying to make comparisons with any other people there, putting them on par with the racists, is suggesting the racists have no intention of causing minorities any harm or ill will, which is white supremacist propaganda veiled under a thin layer of baloney.
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    ...

    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

    And that's how one normalises and supports racists. You are cool with white supremacists, but not the extreme ones? That was no concerned heritage rally. Lee's family want it put in a Museum.


  • #855
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    For Reals wrote: »
    Help!!!! wrote: »
    Ok so at an antifa rally you say they are mainly anarchists? So when the commie flag wavers turn up does that mean they have all turned commie?

    You do realise you are commenting in the role of a white supremacist apologist?
    The rally was organised and attended by white supremacists.
    The City council's decision to move the statue was a mere excuse to rally, unite the KKK, ALT-right, racists.
    Trying to make comparisons with any other people there, putting them on par with the racists, is suggesting the racists have no intention of causing minorities any harm or ill will, which is white supremacist propaganda veiled under a thin layer of baloney.
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    ...

    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

    And that's how one normalises and supports racists. You are cool with white supremacists, but not the extreme ones? That was no concerned heritage rally. Lee's family want it put in a Museum.
    When i said  

    "" Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists ""

    I condemn " white supremacy extremists " because white supremacists in general are extremists , there is no other word to describe white supremacists other then extremists.


  • #856
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because...
    ...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.
    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

    Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

    Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier, or are you just going to whatabout the thread with another swathe of memes and videos?


  • #857
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/897783655002775552

    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

    People make out like these Nazi micro-groups and Antifa are staunchly ideological, there is an ideology platform there for them work out from but, it is mostly just rich Middle Class kids looking for a cause that will allow them to control others,intimidate others and beat up on the street.

    Either of these sides, the people in them,when they have complete power have always ended in mass murder and eventual collapse.

    If you want to be a street activist, fighting malign forces that are organizing, I'm not going to stop you but if you see a Nazi and an Antifa fighting, hit both of their heads with the Iron bar in your hand.

    If you are on the Right you can hit the Nazi again when he is down, if you are on the left hit the Antifa again.


  • #858
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    The reason people are talking about the extreme left is because...
    ...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.
    Just to clear I condemn extremists from both sides as in I condemn white supremacists extremists + I condemn Antifa extremists equally .

    Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

     Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier, or are you just going to whatabout the thread with another swathe of memes and videos?

    "" Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness. ""
    I condemn them both equally because they re both extreme + they both engage in fascist like behavior, I outlined in a post last night in  detail why I see Antifa as extremists .

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104398237&postcount=778

    Even New jersey homeland security sees them as extremists .

    https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa

     "" Do you have anything to say about the non-exhaustive list of actual terrorist acts I posted earlier ""

    Any groups that engage in any form of terrorism should be banned + proscribed under the law , it should be a criminal offence to be a member of any terror group under the law .


  • #859
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Danzy wrote: »
    People make out like these Nazi micro-groups and Antifa are staunchly ideological, there is an ideology platform there for them work out from but, it is mostly just rich Middle Class kids looking for a cause that will allow them to control others,intimidate others and beat up on the street.

    Either of these sides, the people in them,when they have complete power have always ended in mass murder and eventual collapse.

    If you want to be a street activist, fighting malign forces that are organizing, I'm not going to stop you but if you see a Nazi and an Antifa fighting, hit both of their heads with the Iron bar in your hand.

    If you are on the Right you can hit the Nazi again when he is down, if you are on the left hit the Antifa again.

    Violence shouldn't be tolerated. White supremacy is geared towards putting one set of people above another. You cannot dismiss this nor normalise this as you seem to be attempting to do. Two wrongs don't excuse an ALT-Right.
    All the antifa bad press, video, photos in the world will not normalise or excuse the racist rally that resulted in murder.
    White supremacy stands alone in it's ideology of hate and is to be abhorred.


  • #860
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ...they want to move the conversation away from the fact that fascists and Nazis are openly parading in the streets.

    Yes. That's the problem. When you condemn fascists and people who oppose fascists equally, you're saying "fascists are no worse than the people who oppose them", which is so wrong it practically redefines wrongness.

    I disagree with you on the first part but agree with you on the second part.

    I don't think people are trying to move the conversation away from Fascists and Nazis but rather it seems blatantly obvious that the violent clashes in the US have been escalating and it was only a matter of time before someone dies.

    So when there were protests against speakers at colleges or protests against Trump these were not protests against "Nazis" and oftentimes the people who were beaten up were not Fascists at all. People also see what Antifa were doing in Hamburg and are thinking that both "sides" are looking for trouble and looking for fights.

    Why can't someone just be on the side of non-violence and ask that we acknowledge in some way that there was an escalation of violence here over many months and that more than one faction needs to be held accountable?

    Now, on the other hand, I agree with you that saying "one side is as bad as the other" is terribly, extremely, wrong(even if this is well-meaning). White supremacist/nationalist groups were responsible for what happened at the weekend and one of them killed a person. They should take sole responsibility for that.

    Their rally was a disgrace and some of the things they were chanting tells you exactly what kind of mindset exists within the movement. They should be condemned and discredited and banned if possible.

    When an Antifa or BLM or whatever rally gets so bad that someone dies then I would hope that people will stand up and condemn them too. Now is not the time for that.

    We probably should not be so quick to just assume that other people are defending Nazis or trying to deflect. The pattern of escalation is obvious and it will seem quite natural to some people to point out that both sides have encouraged each other to become more violent. It was really only a matter of time before someone was killed.

    Maybe it is better to just condemn one group at a time. The right wing people at Charlottesville should be blamed for what happened and their actions and flags and chants, and their entire ideology, should be condemned.


  • #861
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

    For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.


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  • #862
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    I disagree with you on the first part but agree with you on the second part.

    I don't think people are trying to move the conversation away from Fascists and Nazis but rather it seems blatantly obvious that the violent clashes in the US have been escalating and it was only a matter of time before someone dies.

    So when there were protests against speakers at colleges or protests against Trump these were not protests against "Nazis" and oftentimes the people who were beaten up were not Fascists at all. People also see what Antifa were doing in Hamburg and are thinking that both "sides" are looking for trouble and looking for fights.

    Why can't someone just be on the side of non-violence and ask that we acknowledge in some way that there was an escalation of violence here over many months and that more than one faction needs to be held accountable?

    Now, on the other hand, I agree with you that saying "one side is as bad as the other" is terribly, extremely, wrong(even if this is well-meaning). White supremacist/nationalist groups were responsible for what happened at the weekend and one of them killed a person. They should take sole responsibility for that.

    Their rally was a disgrace and some of the things they were chanting tells you exactly what kind of mindset exists within the movement. They should be condemned and discredited and banned if possible.

    When an Antifa or BLM or whatever rally gets so bad that someone dies then I would hope that people will stand up and condemn them too. Now is not the time for that.

    We probably should not be so quick to just assume that other people are defending Nazis or trying to deflect. The pattern of escalation is obvious and it will seem quite natural to some people to point out that both sides have encouraged each other to become more violent. It was really only a matter of time before someone was killed.

    Maybe it is better to just condemn one group at a time. The right wing people at Charlottesville should be blamed for what happened and their actions and flags and chants, and their entire ideology, should be condemned.

    Trying to create a like with like scenario is an attempt to excuse or normalise white supremacy. Right wing people are fine. The white supremacists who took part in the white supremacist rally are not.
    Comparisons to antifa are whataboutery, (also this was not a two group rally rather a collection of people protesting against racists). We don't get to 'whatabout' racism. It's not acceptable and trying to make comparisons is an attempt to normalise it, as is talk of 'both sides' There was no other side marching against white people and their rights. There is no 'ALT-Left' working from within the domestic US, marching and calling for less rights for whites, trying to marginalise or make whites lesser.


  • #863
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    wes wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

    <SNIP>


  • #864
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    For Reals wrote: »
    Trying to create a like with like scenario is an attempt to excuse or normalise white supremacy. Right wing people are fine. The white supremacists who took part in the white supremacist rally are not.
    Comparisons to antifa are whataboutery, (also this was not a two group rally rather a collection of people protesting against racists). We don't get to 'whatabout' racism. It's not acceptable and trying to make comparisons is an attempt to normalise it, as is talk of 'both sides' There was no other side marching against white people and their rights. There is no 'ALT-Left' working from within the domestic US, marching and calling for less rights for whites, trying to marginalise or make whites lesser.

    I agree. 100%.

    I don't think people are doing this on purpose though.

    Most people are strongly against racism. Even more are strongly against this extreme white supremacy rhetoric.

    Most people also don't want to have their neighborhood smashed up or have their car set on fire.

    It's kind of obvious that many people will see who was involved in the trouble and conclude that they want nothing to do with any of those groups.

    It's not whataboutery at all. Some people just hate both groups.

    The groups here are not comparable, that's 100% true. They have very different motivations and very different goals. It's plain to see that the far right crowd are objectively worse than their opponents. That doesn't make their opponents good people.

    I wouldn't want my hometown to be overrun by these neo-Nazi idiots but equally I wouldn't want to have my car smashed up by left wing protesters.

    Is that saying one side is just as bad as the other? NO. People should be allowed to dislike both groups here.

    I don't think this is the time or place to criticize Antifa or BLM but they should not be above criticism.

    WW2 keeps coming up. There were Pacifists in WW2 but these people were anti-war and anti-violence. They were not Nazi sympathizers.


  • #865
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    For Reals wrote: »
    Violence shouldn't be tolerated. White supremacy is geared towards putting one set of people above another. You cannot dismiss this nor normalise this as you seem to be attempting to do. Two wrongs don't excuse an ALT-Right.
    All the antifa bad press, video, photos in the world will not normalise or excuse the racist rally that resulted in murder.
    White supremacy stands alone in it's ideology of hate and is to be abhorred.

    So saying hit the Nazi with an Iron bar to the head is trying to minimize or normalize them, Jeeze but you must have grown up rough.

    That ends up with a man as a vegetable or a corpse, if that is excusing, then wow.

    Supremacist ideologies are always wrong, I have no problem agreeing with that.

    My point it that the Assholes in Antifa and the Assholes with their Swastikas are closer to each other than most people are, they both need to be challenged and challenged hard by society. Especially the Working Class, both of them talk a great game about empowering the Proletariat but their track record, on each side is tens of millions of dead, and the most horrendous crimes and wrongs against humanity.

    I'm not going to argue against you working the Nazi with a bar for 20 minutes but the Antifa will also deserve at least 10. Forget the ideological veneer that they use. If you spent 30 minutes in your life at that, you'd have done more to ensure a safer and better society for all than most.

    Which is worse for a community Crystal Meth or Heroin?


  • #866
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    Myself + some others on this thread have said "extremists from both sides " - " condemn both equally " pointing out an observation that extremists on both sides exists isn,t trying to defend anyone, any group that displays banners such as " more dead cops " are extremists , no other word to describe them other then extremists .

    Fine, but there is surely a better time or place to criticize them? It creates a false equivalence to describe these groups as opposing "sides".

    Almost everyone is opposed to neo-Nazis etc but that's different to being opposed to political violence. There's an Antifa vs Nazis argument but that's not the same as a non-violence vs violence argument.

    You are arguing in favor of "non-violence" yeah? Opposing white supremacists and opposing violent protests are two very different things and they really shouldn't be mixed together.

    I feel like the main focus of criticism in the wake of Charlottesville should be the rise of white supremacy movements. Bringing political violence into the mix just confuses the issue. I do not think that "what about..." is a good approach.


  • #867
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    First of all, this thread is not about Brexit. We've a Brexit thread for that and also a thread about Brexit's impact on Northern Ireland. So plenty of places to talk about Brexit.

    Secondly, the topic of the thread is about the weekend's events Charlottesville. There's people posting pictures of stuff from completely different demonstrations held several years ago. Misleading posts/misinformation is against the forum charter.

    Thirdly, we've started handing out cards for below standards posts. As we warned already, if you're just looking for a row, look elsewhere.

    Thanks


  • #868
    Saruhashi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 591 ✭✭✭Saruhashi


    wes wrote: »
    For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.

    Haven't really seen anyone defending Nazi's here on Boards. :confused:

    I've seen people misguidedly trying to criticize both sides but I don't believe you should equate that to defense of Nazis. It seems a bit sneaky to be honest.


  • #869
    marcus001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 528 ✭✭✭marcus001


    wes wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/make_ready/status/897899970501541888

    For those still trying to defend Nazi's. Again, there is no comparison.

    I don't think people are defending those who instigated violence. But I've seen more than enough footage of Trump supporters getting their heads smashed in with padlocks to have turned permanently sour. I'm sure those Antifas enjoyed being the hero that day just as much as they would enjoy cracking open someone's skull any other day. They're thugs, pure and simple. As the post says, they did what the police should have been doing, or rather what the police would be doing if they weren't tasked with controlling two crowds of hooligans. Antifa showed up to at Trump rallies to cause violence, I highly doubt they went to a Nazi gathering to be the noble defenders.


  • #870
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,067 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    Fine, but there is surely a better time or place to criticize them? It creates a false equivalence to describe these groups as opposing "sides".

    Almost everyone is opposed to neo-Nazis etc but that's different to being opposed to political violence. There's an Antifa vs Nazis argument but that's not the same as a non-violence vs violence argument.

    You are arguing in favor of "non-violence" yeah? Opposing white supremacists and opposing violent protests are two very different things and they really shouldn't be mixed together.

    I feel like the main focus of criticism in the wake of Charlottesville should be the rise of white supremacy movements. Bringing political violence into the mix just confuses the issue. I do not think that "what about..." is a good approach.

    The mindset of both these groups was old long before you or I were born. A better time or place, is long past, if it was ever there, these are sides that come with a long and unimaginably brutal history,we should not pretend that Antifa are the bad here and the Nazis the wronged party or vice versa, they are different but very similar in many ways and both need to be strongly opposed because they offer nothing but ruination in the long term.


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  • #871
    mynamejeff
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭mynamejeff


    Saruhashi wrote: »
    Haven't really seen anyone defending Nazi's here on Boards. :confused:

    I've seen people misguidedly trying to criticize both sides but I don't believe you should equate that to defense of Nazis. It seems a bit sneaky to be honest.

    why shouldn't violent left wing political extremists be criticized as much as violent right wing ones ?


This discussion has been closed.
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