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Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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Comments

  • #3152
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    Team for the Chiefs has Payne and Henshaw together in the centre, Best, Stander and Henderson all start


    With laidlaw and bigger at 9 and 10 they are hamstrung before they even start.


  • #3153
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    bilston wrote: »
    Well that would certainly explain the non selection of Gray.

    Maybe Scotland wanted to keep Gray? Or the Lions could have called up the vastly more experienced Bradley Davies ahead of Hill but maybe Wales wanted to keep him. Launchbury wasn't really an option either.

    I dunno, I think this is a total non-issue. It's the most pragmatic way of getting warm bodies onto the bench.


  • #3154
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Given the team that's named for Tuesday, it appears the 23 spot is the only one up for grabs.

    It seems Henderson isn't going to make the bench. Disappointing if so as he's shown a real impact in his last two appearances. It also makes me wonder if AWJ is going to start given he's not really a bench style player.


  • #3155
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,586 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Former Former wrote: »
    Maybe Scotland wanted to keep Gray? Or the Lions could have called up the vastly more experienced Bradley Davies ahead of Hill but maybe Wales wanted to keep him. Launchbury wasn't really an option either.

    I dunno, I think this is a total non-issue. It's the most pragmatic way of getting warm bodies onto the bench.

    Are they allowed to determine who's released and who's not? I would have though it's gatlands call pure and simple. Specifically referring to Scotland here as gatland is interwoven with the wru.


  • #3156
    mfceiling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    I laughed..


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  • #3157
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Are they allowed to determine who's released and who's not? I would have though it's gatlands call pure and simple. Specifically referring to Scotland here as gatland is interwoven with the wru.

    Who knows? There are a million explanations and that's why it's a bit much to be going on about devaluing the jersey and insulting guys.

    Another aspect is that Gray was probably gutted to miss out initially, like Launchbury, Hartley, Healy, Nel or whoever else. They'd be arriving into the setup with that baggage and maybe Gatland didn't want that?


  • #3158
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    The 23 jersey for the first test is interesting. I would've had Daly as favourite but he's starting on Tuesday, as is the other likely candidate Williams. Joseph isn't playing but if he was named at 23 for the test there would be no obvious cover at wing or full back. I'd have expected Payne at full back for Tuesday with Williams on the wing and Joseph at 13. That would have allowed them to hold Daly back for Saturday.


  • #3159
    Erik Shin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 ✭✭✭Erik Shin


    Former Former wrote: »
    Who knows? There are a million explanations and that's why it's a bit much to be going on about devaluing the jersey and insulting guys.

    Another aspect is that Gray was probably gutted to miss out initially, like Launchbury, Hartley, Healy, Nel or whoever else. They'd be arriving into the setup with that baggage and maybe Gatland didn't want that?

    Gatland have an interview yesterday saying that a few of these guys he's added were quite close to being selected anyway.....


  • #3160
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    What do fans in NZ make of this kind of game with a gutted chiefs side playing the Lions B team plus some random players that were in the neighbourhood? It could be the first decent match of the series with virtually nothing riding on it - none of these players need to fear losing a place - but it's a bit jumpers for goalposts and it would be a bit much to charge premium prices for tickets.


  • #3161
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I just can't believe Ben Te'o, who flattered to deceive for England, is going to be a Test Lion.

    Owen Farrell and Robbie Henshaw should be miles ahead of him in the pecking order.

    But no, Warren-ball.

    The man ruins everything the Lions should be about because he's an egotistical maniac.


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  • #3162
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    It is a bit ridiculous to have the untouchable jersey being worn by some random players. I mean we have not even had a load of injuries they knew they needed some of these before they started the tour. Why not just bring a few more or change the schedule a bit?


  • #3163
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    He's possibly the player of the tour at this point. Completely deserves the jersey.

    If it was the stereotype that people have of Warrenball then Henshaw would start. Te'o has been far more incisive than Henshaw who has had a very one dimensional tour.


  • #3164
    .ak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Henshaw will prob feel fairly disappointed to be consigned to the dirt trackers. So much of the success of individual players is dictated by which players you get to play with. Get put in a bad team, players badly and your tour is over.

    Shame he wasn't given a chance at 13, Davies has a good break but is a poor passer.

    Faugheen wrote: »
    I just can't believe Ben Te'o, who flattered to deceive for England, is going to be a Test Lion.

    Owen Farrell and Robbie Henshaw should be miles ahead of him in the pecking order.

    But no, Warren-ball.

    The man ruins everything the Lions should be about because he's an egotistical maniac.

    I'm going to be massively unpopular for saying this, but I'm not surprised. I said it at the time but I was massively disappointed when Leinster let T'eo go, but was happy we were getting the ever impressing Henshaw in his place.

    But for me, he has yet to be impress. Has he been a massive contributor to Ireland and Leinster? Yes. Had he put his body on the line, time and time again? Yes. But has he done anything other than ad a physical aspect to our backline(s)? Not really. He's been incredibly one dimensional, and that's been reflected in this tour. Even the kicking game he showed in his first tests seems to have fizzled out. He looks slow now and looks to always take contact, any if his switch/screeners/wrap plays look pedestrian. He looks like a backrower playing in the backline.

    I know IBF will disagree with me, but I respectfully disagree; T'eo is the better player, and consider the following - T'eo had played no rugby union up until 3 years ago when the then Leinster coach MOC decided to take a punt on him, he came to union in the shadow of a much bigger code switcher in Sam Burgress. Burgress was expected to save English rugby, ended up running home with the tail between his legs.

    Now look at T'eo, possibly the POTT, and playing in one of the most difficult positions on the pitch. People can say he's a warrenball player, but is that true? Henshaw would suit that bill far more, T'eo is more dynamic, making line breaks, reading his 10 well, looking for offloads, bossing the gain line.

    Sure, he can work on his passing, rucking and maybe we never want to see him ever put boot to ball, but not bad for a guy playing in one of the most difficult positions on a pitch, for a team that is the best of the best, in NZ when a few years ago he had he had never played a pro game of union.

    Keep it up Ben, haters gonna hate.


  • #3165
    mfceiling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    I've had my reservations about Henshaw for some time now. He's turning into another Kevin Maggs. We were told he was training with BOD and was the next great 13 in Ireland. Instead he's turned into a 12 who runs in to contact every single time. He's in danger of becoming a one dimensional bosh merchant with nothing else in his arsenal.


  • #3166
    Erik Shin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,721 ✭✭✭Erik Shin


    mfceiling wrote: »
    I've had my reservations about Henshaw for some time now. He's turning into another Kevin Maggs. We were told he was training with BOD and was the next great 13 in Ireland. Instead he's turned into a 12 who runs in to contact every single time. He's in danger of becoming a one dimensional bosh merchant with nothing else in his arsenal.

    I hear he has posters of James Downey on his wall


  • #3167
    Scythica
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭Scythica


    Erik Shin wrote: »
    I hear he has posters of James Downey on his wall

    Must be the same ones Luke Marshall put up a few seasons ago


  • #3168
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I just can't believe Ben Te'o, who flattered to deceive for England, is going to be a Test Lion.

    Owen Farrell and Robbie Henshaw should be miles ahead of him in the pecking order.

    But no, Warren-ball.

    The man ruins everything the Lions should be about because he's an egotistical maniac.

    Robbie Henshaw has been playing 'Warrenball' to perfection for the last few years. Te'o has been running lines and offloading well all tour.


  • #3169
    Maisie Wailing Beagle
    Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Maisie Wailing Beagle


    mfceiling wrote: »
    I've had my reservations about Henshaw for some time now. He's turning into another Kevin Maggs. We were told he was training with BOD and was the next great 13 in Ireland. Instead he's turned into a 12 who runs in to contact every single time. He's in danger of becoming a one dimensional bosh merchant with nothing else in his arsenal.

    This isn't even close to how he plays for Leinster. I have all the scrum.com stats compiled on my PC for the season and I'll check his K/P/R later but he does not take it into contact every time when playing in blue. Not at all.


  • #3170
    Cosmo Kramer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Henshaw was anything but a bosh 12 in his last season with Connacht. It's been a shame to see him regress in this manner in the last year alright but there's no question - Te'o will get the 12 shirt for the Lions on merit.

    If things had worked out slightly differently Te'o might still have been with Leinster and Henshaw might have still been at Connacht. Te'o would be about to become IQ'd and Henshaw might still be showing his previous form. Undoubtedly it would have been to the benefit of the Irish team, Connacht and maybe even Leinster as well had things worked out that way. How much extra did he get to go to Worcester? It can't have been that much with the pound as weak as it is these days.


  • #3171
    1eg0a3xv7b82of
    Closed Accounts Posts: 996 ✭✭✭1eg0a3xv7b82of


    henshaw is playing a position which i believe does not showcase his real talent but he still performs to a high standard.
    if he had been developed as a 13 with ireland and connacht and then leinster it would have been interesting to see how that would have developed.
    I believe a wrong decision was made to push Henshaw to 12, he should have stayed as 15 where he showed real promise or been developed as a 13.
    Remember when payne and henshaw first teamed up at centre and every one assumed payne 12 henshaw 13 and the opposite happened. That decision was criminal.


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  • #3172
    Maisie Wailing Beagle
    Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Maisie Wailing Beagle


    Lyra Long Drug wrote: »
    Remember when payne and henshaw first teamed up at centre and every one assumed payne 12 henshaw 13 and the opposite happened. That decision was criminal.

    No, I really don't.

    The conversation on him here, as usual, isn't really grounded in reality. Last time it was that he's massively bulked up, which also is fiction.

    He has been excellent this season for Leinster. Ireland and the Lions don't play the same way and he's probably not been as good for those teams.


  • #3173
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,049 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Two things Henshaw has over Te'o is that he is better defensively and is a better passer off the ball. He is also more experienced.

    Te'o seems to be able to get over the gainline better and has a decent step off his left foot.

    I'm not sure there is much between them.

    Te'o could yet be used as more of a decoy against NZ. If you had Farrell in the midfield, Sexton could use Te'o as decoy, take out a couple of defenders, the ball goes behind him to Farrell and then Farrell has time and space to hit someone short, go wide, play it back inside or go behind the short runner again. It's basically the Saracens gameplan and it works really well when the timing is there and we saw it a bit against the Crusaders and a bit yesterday too with Halfpenny playing the second receiver role. It may be something we see in the final quarter of the game if the Lions are chasing or need to break the deadlock.


  • #3174
    1eg0a3xv7b82of
    Closed Accounts Posts: 996 ✭✭✭1eg0a3xv7b82of


    Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »
    No, I really don't.

    The conversation on him here, as usual, isn't really grounded in reality. Last time it was that he's massively bulked up, which also is fiction.

    He has been excellent this season for Leinster. Ireland and the Lions don't play the same way and he's probably not been as good for those teams.

    Have you only started following rugby within the last year? genuine rugby people were surprised at the time that henshaw played 12.
    also The reason is not ireland and the lions play differently to leinster, its the simple fact grounded in reality that ireland and the lions are a huge step up in quality.


  • #3175
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Te'o as player of the tour would be ridiculous. He has made some nice eye catching breaks but he has also butchered tries by taking the wrong option and from poor passing. I read that the 2 centres had 6 passes in total on Saturday, that's ridiculous. They're starving the back 3 of ball. Of course a player is going to stand out more if they take the ball up every time they get it. I don't think a single Lions centre has shown any playmaking ability on this tour.

    Farrell to 12 and Te'o or Davies at 13 should really be the pick.


  • #3176
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    People are judging Te'o on what they thought of him prior to the Lions tour.

    The test team should be picked on the basis of who has performed best on tour and that is Te'o. Henshaw has been average, the Sexton-Farrell midfield hasn't been tried and Te'o has been very good. He deserves the jersey.


  • #3177
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Former Former wrote: »
    People are judging Te'o on what they thought of him prior to the Lions tour.

    The test team should be picked on the basis of who has performed best on tour and that is Te'o. Henshaw has been average, the Sexton-Farrell midfield hasn't been tried and Te'o has been very good. He deserves the jersey.

    He sure does. The Sexton bench option is a great one though, as he is both standoff backup, and a dramatic tactic change option if brought on with Farrell still playing.
    Henshaw is a fine player, but in an Ireland team context only - mixing he best of the home nations to form a strong lions team, you hope to have someone better than him. At the moment, Te'o is that.
    While Hench works hard, is strong, decent in defence, doesnt commit clangers, he has shown little or nothing against top level teams as a stepper, line breaker, tackle-taker-offloader.


  • #3178
    Maisie Wailing Beagle
    Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Maisie Wailing Beagle


    Lyra Long Drug wrote: »
    Have you only started following rugby within the last year?

    An argument I've only ever seen used by people who haven't a rashers. Moving on.


  • #3179
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Ringrose's emergence was in someways a terrible turn of events for Henshaw. The 13 that played so well for Connacht has been fairly neutered since.


  • #3180
    Maisie Wailing Beagle
    Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭ Maisie Wailing Beagle


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Ringrose's emergence was in someways a terrible turn of events for Henshaw. The 13 that played so well for Connacht has been fairly neutered since.

    He's been playing 12 for Ireland since 2014 in the AIs. It's where Schmidt saw him and that really shaped things.


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  • #3181
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Lyra Long Drug wrote: »
    Remember when payne and henshaw first teamed up at centre and every one assumed payne 12 henshaw 13 and the opposite happened. That decision was criminal.

    Eh dont think so. Darce and henshaw played v australia in autumn 2014 but in 6n 2015 Henshaw was moved to 12 and Payne at 13 . Payne was never a 12. Most of his rugby at ulster was at 15 with a little bit at 13 AFAIK.

    Think your assumptions are your own and not everyone's


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