Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

.ak

Lyra Long Drug wrote: »

Have you only started following rugby within the last year? genuine rugby people were surprised at the time that henshaw played 12.
also The reason is not ireland and the lions play differently to leinster, its the simple fact grounded in reality that ireland and the lions are a huge step up in quality.

I'm sure you can make your point without being so condescending/belittling.

PhlegmyMoses

Henshaw's defensive workrate is outrageous, which I dont think should be overlooked. For all we talk of Teo's ability with ball in hand, the reality is, the team aren't scoring many tries and do not look like they are able to carve open the ABs all that much. A bit better at the weekend, but I would expect that to be the excpetion with the backs they have.

With that in mind, looking at each pkayer on their attacking merits is not really looking at the likely scenario, imo.

Yamanoto

mfceiling wrote: »

I've had my reservations about Henshaw for some time now. He's turning into another Kevin Maggs. We were told he was training with BOD and was the next great 13 in Ireland. Instead he's turned into a 12 who runs in to contact every single time. He's in danger of becoming a one dimensional bosh merchant with nothing else in his arsenal.

Think that's a little harsh on Maggs.

Glad to see some critical assessment of Henshaw happening at last.

For all his work rate, his offensive play has been plodding and devoid of dynamism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5w19jt_dQ

Buer

I remember watching that game. France had completely gone to sleep at that stage. They all but pointed out the way to the line to Maggs.

I do think Maggs is an underrated player though and was a great, solid player for Ireland for a long time.

AbusesToilets

Henshaw has looked a touch slow of late. I don't know if he's always been like that but it's been more noticeable recently.

Burkie1203

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Henshaw has looked a touch slow of late. I don't know if he's always been like that but it's been more noticeable recently.

I wonder has that anything to do with the knee injury he picked up in SA last year

Former Former

Yamanoto wrote: »

Think that's a little harsh on Maggs.

Glad to see some critical assessment of Henshaw happening at last.

For all his work rate, his offensive play has been plodding and devoid of dynamism.

He's being asked to do a certain job and he's doing it.

It hasn't panned out for him on this tour but he's not alone in that.

Buer

I'm sure Henshaw has put on a couple of kilos over the past 18 months. Nothing massive but probably enough to make a slight difference to his acceleration.

All this discussion of him is a bit over the top in respect of any suggestion that he's not playing very well, though (and I'm probably guilty of that too). He's not carving up defences but he's playing regularly at a much higher level now. He's someone that is still ultra consistent and has a very low error count.

In terms of NZ, Te'o is deservedly going to get the nod but Henshaw could well get a test cap at some point. I wouldn't be surprised. The NZ game is going to be another level from what we've seen so far. There won't be massive bursts through the middle for 40-50m gains.

Henshaw's current game is designed to win an arm wrestle and this is going to be such a game. Most people considered his performance in the Chicago victory to be a world class showing. But he didn't make one clear break in the game. According to the stats he got the ball 16 times, running it 10 times and making 26m. I would imagine that includes 5m on the try so he was hardly punching holes or tearing open any defensive lines. He was smashing his team up over the gain line, getting a good recycle, making a huge amount of tackles and making virtually no errors.

And that's how you beat NZ. You take them on physically and win. You make no mistakes. You shut them down in defence. Ireland scored 40 points but didn't even make 200m with the ball in hand in the entire 80m. Henshaw isn't going to carve teams open with a running game because he's not playing at a level where that really happens much anymore and it's not what he has been asked to do for some time.

If you offered me a choice between someone like Henshaw who plays as I described or someone like Jonathan Joseph who is a beautifully balanced runner with a great appreciation of space and timing in attack but can be all at sea in defence, I wouldn't have to think very long about it at all.

Te'o, for his part, has hit the form of his life. I think he's a wonderful athlete and Leinster would have been lucky to retain him but you can't argue with the massive money Worcester put on the table. I think he's completely unphased by playing in his homeland which is a bonus to him too. With all that said, you're only as good as your last game on a Lions tour and I feel he's going to have a much tougher time on Saturday.

CatFromHue

looks like it's gonna be T'eo v SBW

AbusesToilets

I wish the Lions would take advantage of the breaks they've been making. Time and again, a player makes a burst thru, just begging for a support runner off their shoulder, but to no avail. NZ converts those chances all day long.

Buer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I wish the Lions would take advantage of the breaks they've been making. Time and again, a player makes a burst thru, just begging for a support runner off their shoulder, but to no avail. NZ converts those chances all day long.

A lot of that is down to a) unfamiliar combinations and b) a complete lack of form in the back three. Those are the lads who you'd expect to be on shoulders, reading an attack opening up and picking lines to get on the shoulder of the man who has broken through.

His time is long gone but Gatland would absolutely kill for a 28 year old Tommy Bowe to be on that tour.

Ardillaun

CatFromHue wrote: »

looks like it's gonna be T'eo v SBW

There's no way we could play Farrell there. He'll just get run over.

.ak

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I wish the Lions would take advantage of the breaks they've been making. Time and again, a player makes a burst thru, just begging for a support runner off their shoulder, but to no avail. NZ converts those chances all day long.

Buer wrote: »

A lot of that is down to a) unfamiliar combinations and b) a complete lack of form in the back three. Those are the lads who you'd expect to be on shoulders, reading an attack opening up and picking lines to get on the shoulder of the man who has broken through.

His time is long gone but Gatland would absolutely kill for a 28 year old Tommy Bowe to be on that tour.

Yeah it's funny you mention it but I remember sexton making two breaks and who was on his shoulder for each break, furlong and sob. The Irish lads are probably more appreciative of sexton's half break and know when to run off his shoulder rather than stepping in as next receiver or clearer.

Ardillaun

Ardillaun wrote: »

There's no way we could play Farrell there. He'll just get run over.

Eh? He's a good defender, no he wouldn't. And he plays there all the time for England.

Donnielighto

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

Eh? He's a good defender, no he wouldn't. And he plays there all the time for England.

Sonny Bill could be liable to dominate him physically though. Teo should handle that aspect better even if attacking suffers.

sydthebeat

Donnielighto wrote: »

Sonny Bill could be liable to dominate him physically though. Teo should handle that aspect better even if attacking suffers.

SBW has had one good outing this year... Which was the blues lions game.
He's been quite timid all season to be honest.. And probably lucky crotty is injured.

Ardillaun

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

Eh? He's a good defender, no he wouldn't. And he plays there all the time for England.

He's a brave defender, more than adequate against most teams, but I would prefer a specialist centre for this.

irishbucsfan

Ardillaun wrote: »

He's a brave defender, more than adequate against most teams, but I would prefer a specialist centre for this.

A specialist like Ben Te'o, who was playing rugby league until a couple of years ago. Or Robbie Henshaw who was playing 15 and 13 until a couple of years ago.

English Lurker

Billy Beautiful Guillotine wrote: »

Eh? He's a good defender, no he wouldn't. And he plays there all the time for England.

He's good over all but in a slightly inconsistent sometimes awesome sometimes oh dear way. He loves to go for the rush, for the big hit. Occasionally he just misses the guy but more often, he'll go high and hard and discover he's run into a far more powerful man and just get bounced. Watching Farrell take multiple gos to realise he wasn't as strong as Nonu in 2014 is still etched on my mind.

All things being equal, he wouldn't be my choice at 12 to defend against SBW.

Erik Shin

You know you're a mad bastard when Haskell describes you as mental... step forward SOB & POM

Re Henshaw, I think he's played some quality rugby this year. His performance against the AB's was top drawer and when hes not been available to Leinster hes been missed.

He hasn't shone on this tour but I don't think he is solely responsible for that.

wp_rathead

Hasn't worked offensively for Henshaw alright on this tour, I do think playing outside Biggar in his two Lions games hasn't helped mind - Te'o has mainly played outside Sexton and Farrell who are better distributers. But Te'o has taken his chances and run good lines so can't fault him getting the nod to the 12 Jersey


Oh and Sinckler is Lion of the Tournament so far

Buer

Erik Shin wrote: »

You know you're a mad bastard when Haskell describes you as mental... step forward SOB & POM

He was never going to threaten the test team but I'd say Haskell has been a very good man to have on tour and help bring the team together.

Sanjuro

wp_rathead wrote: »

Oh and Sinckler is Lion of the Tournament so far

He's good. But he's green, and some of that has shone through. Faletau is clearly the standout right now.

Buer

wp_rathead wrote: »

Oh and Sinckler is Lion of the Tournament so far

To be honest, I think if anyone but Vunipola gets the nod (assuming everyone continues on in the same form for the next 3 weeks) it will be daylight robbery.

The man has been sensational. No prop should be able to carry that much ball, be a key part of a destructive scrum and still be absolutely everywhere in defence, topping the tackle charts when he departs the field.

He has been sensational. Jack McGrath has had a fine tour and, for me, has possibly been better than Furlong overall. His work rate and defensive impact has been fantastic and he has carried well. But Vunipola has been on another level entirely.

kilns

The big questions is if Farrell is fit for the next day will it be Sexton or Farrell chosen to start at 10.
Sexton is coming back into form but still isnt fully up there yet and I personal think that Farrell is being hyped up and being made to be more a important than he actually is.

Buer

kilns wrote: »

The big questions is if Farrell is fit for the next day will it be Sexton or Farrell chosen to start at 10.
Sexton is coming back into form but still isnt fully up there yet and I personal think that Farrell is being hyped up and being made to be more a important than he actually is.

I suspect he'll stick with Sexton. He's a tried and trusted option for Gatland from the last tour and had a good run out with Murray, Te'o and Davies, linking well with Davies in particular.

It was reported that Farrell's injury came after he was named in the 23 so it appears Gatland was eager to get Sexton into the team anyway.

kilns

kilns wrote: »

The big questions is if Farrell is fit for the next day will it be Sexton or Farrell chosen to start at 10.
Sexton is coming back into form but still isnt fully up there yet and I personal think that Farrell is being hyped up and being made to be more a important than he actually is.

Agreed. The English media have a serious hard on for Farrell at 10 and are ignoring any other potential eventuality bar occasionally acknowledging he may slot in at 12.

The real mccoy 91

kilns wrote:

The big questions is if Farrell is fit for the next day will it be Sexton or Farrell chosen to start at 10. Sexton is coming back into form but still isnt fully up there yet and I personal think that Farrell is being hyped up and being made to be more a important than he actually is.

He's back training today so will be fit. If he comes down to a decision for the 10 jersey it has to be farrell really he could put him in at 12 but I don't think he will it's unfortunate for sexton as his form has picked up but he is still a way behind farrell

awec

IMO if he's fit it'll be Farrell with Sexton on the bench.