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NIGHT SHOOTING
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If you have them and they are in the public domain (which as a rep they should be). I just don't know them all off the top of my head.Backbarrel wrote: »Can we put up the actual names of the organisations and their various reps?
Not that i'm aware off. As you pointed out the old committee left, but i don't believe the new one rejoined. I highly doubt it.BattleCorp wrote: »I'm just asking the question here, but did the NASRPC rejoin the Sports Coalition when there was a change of Committee over a year ago?
I think that much is understood, but as you said rumor, which to me is someone apportioning blame to deflect it from themselves, will spread.I'm just waiting for the rumor to get injected that this is all the FCP's fault, when it seems that this, which would bring a huge amount of damage to the FCP's reputation, is coming from a group who've a public history of being highly opposed to the FCP...
Great isn't it!!!!!Tac, these were apparently ideas thought up by shooters. Not the government.
It's the same mindset that wanted time lock safes for all, pistols under 5 inches banned, semi autos banned, ballistic testing, etc, etc.cavan shooter wrote: »What shooting person in their right mind would come up with this, considering if we dont shoot foxes at night we can name 3 or 4 people that do.
Whats that old adage, "Who needs enemies with friends like this".
100%I lay it squarely on the Sports Coalition of vested interests lap.
With this and other topics there can be no hiding in the long grass. Any delay i objecting against these measures can be taken as a sign of acceptance.BTW....not everyone involved in the SC are happy with whats happening and they see it as a betrayal, but are waiting for the time to jump.
Again, great isn't it. :rolleyes:.......... when they themselves are doing all our dirty work for us...'
tacForum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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"Tac, these were apparently ideas thought up by shooters. Not the government."
With friends like these who needs enemies ?0 -
I wonder will the current mess that is the Dept of Justice help or hinder us?? - in terms of maybe delaying the potential enactment in law of this attack on a legitimate shooting activity. Giving time to mount an effective campaign by all concerned to ensure it never sees the light of day.0
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Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but this is not a law, and not going to be one.
The review committee accept proposals, decide, make recommendations to the Minister, who then may meet the FCP and after decide whether to change the law or enact it.
As i said earlier with other Wildlife and Firearm acts already in place that would make enacting such a ban impossible and maybe even illegal it will require a re-writing of said acts to implement such a change.
All that is academic as we should be stomping all over it before it even makes it to committee level.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Correct o mundo on both counts Cass.
Maybe the spin off of this might be we start demanding accountability and openness from those we elect to repersent us??"If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."
Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "
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First time poster, been following the site for years trying to keep up to date with events and changing times. I've been shooting and hunting for near thirty years and seen a lot change in that time but I can say in all honesty I've really been " impressed" with the callousness of the people involved in recent events, seems like its a race to the bottom to find the next new low. I've come to the conclusion we need to bypass our organisations and look for another way, they seem to have largely been corrupted by vested interests in creating their own little fifedoms0
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What i find amazing is that the vast majority of this so called sports coalition represent target shooters. How does it concern them at all regarding the poaching of deer or night shooting of foxes etc. Also the wild deer association and deer society of Ireland would want to hang their heads in shame. This is a worthless suite of recomendations which will do nothing to reduce the problem of deer poaching. Both organisations know this full well.
This only serves to place onerous regulations on law abiding shooters who carry out the vast majority of fox control between the months of September through until march.0 -
When they got their FCP seats silverfox, they were basically the NARGC with hanger-ons. The NARGC has since had a major change of leadership and quit the SC to distance themselves from the policies pursued by their old leadership, but the FCP invitations have not reflected this yet.0
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Most target shooters are or were avid hunters, so why would they want a law like this enacted. Back in the day when I was shooting deer, it was governed by a small group of elite shooters called the Leinster branch of the Irish deer society. These people always wanted exclusive rights to deer shooting and stood on anybody's toes as they thought were their rights. Most of us eventually found a few friendly farmers and a low-cost lease from the dept and got our deer permits. Just have my theories as to what's going on based on 4 decades of experience. Curious to see how correct I am.0
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Hopefully this doesn't come in most of my shooting is fox control and done at all hours of the night for several local sheep farms peak months for me Are December to march......wouldn't mind but there's literally no deer in my area not a one!!0
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Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but this is not a law, and not going to be one.
The review committee accept proposals, decide, make recommendations to the Minister, who then may meet the FCP and after decide whether to change the law or enact it.
As i said earlier with other Wildlife and Firearm acts already in place that would make enacting such a ban impossible and maybe even illegal it will require a re-writing of said acts to implement such a change.
All that is academic as we should be stomping all over it before it even makes it to committee level.
My reading of this is that it's never going to be put into law. The plan is to introduce it into commissioners guidelines or place it on firearm licences as a special instruction. They are bypassing law and putting it into makey up law land. But as we all know it's as good as law for now unless somebody decides to take it on in court0 -
Apologies I forgot to mention the NARGC. They would want to be a busy bunch of bees in the coming days with calls and letters of protest. Whether it helps or not.
Sf0 -
Seeing as the nargc was the main player in the initial grouping but has since come to its senses, why would the organisation representing the vast majority of hunters (who have representation) be excluded from such a consoltation, and now that they have become aware can they not bring their weight to bear before the next stage is initiated0
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The nargc should be in there, not to support rubbish like this, but to block other "representatives" having an open goal unhindered. Better off on the inside piddling out than on the outside piddling in.0
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Are there any politicians on the panel, ?
Writing to the sports collation would probably be a waste of time as it is them that's pushing it?0 -
I'm after having a second read of that document and some things are really standing out to me. I've listed them as i read them with what i think.
- Landowners should be told when you're going out and finishing. I see my landowners at least once a year and some only that much. Once there is no problem they don't bother me and vice versa. Also trying to contact them each time i go out will wear thin and they may not answer or remove me form the permission to avoid having to deal with it. Also calling them at 2, 3 or 4 in the morning to tell them i'm out of heading home would not be welcome.
- The time limit from Sept to March. I'm no farmer but with lambing starting in late January/early Feb. How well would it go down if the land owner rings me, asking for me to shoot a few more nights a week during this time when i cannot do it legally. I'll be off the land and they'll go with someone that will. Also it stinks of the deer associations looking out for their own agenda. Agenda being the key word as the deer are not their property. Just because they created an association does not give them some all powerful right over the rest off us mere mortals.
- Using only the appropriate firearm and ammunition. This is a subtle way of saying nothing deer legal. As no law currently exists to enforce this, and without any change the principal act to make it so, it's an unenforceable rule.
- They claim this also has to do with minimising the disturbance to surrounding dwellings. I understand not everyone shoots in isolated areas, but doesn't this bolster the case for suppressors to be more easily gotten and used. Or would that go against the "blanket ban" policies of some Supers in some districts?
- They try to make a case for using a rimfire rifle with, AGAIN, a suppressor. So use an inappropriate firearm, that you had to apply for FRAUDULENTLY **, with a suppressor that are not being issued in some districts. Clever and well thought out reasoning there. (** = To apply for a firearm you don't have a reason for is a fraudulent application. It's why graduated licensing would be illegal).
- A very large portion of the article is aimed at illegal hunting and trespass. The very large Elephant in the room is that these laws already exist. So we're back to the same old sh*t. no enforcement of the current laws, so time for some new ones. IOW legislate it until it polices itself.
The list of people taking "credit" for this are:- AGS - No surprise
- NPWS - No Surprise
Then the ones that have their own agenda:- IDS - Irish deer Society
- WDAI - Wild Deer association of Ireland
And lastly the ones that have given us some problem issues in the past:- Sports Coalition
- IFDA
- Federation of Irish Salmon and Sea Trout Anglers.
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My taughts exactly on it all!!!it stinks of an agenda for some well known groups. As i said earlier the deer associations need to be e mailed by their members.i don't know how the sports coalition will react to it
Its the worst planned load of crap i have read. Most of it is unworkable in my opinion and if it does get enforced i can see a lot of law abiding shooters getting in trouble because they got delayed going home or held up talking to the farmer0 -
This smacks loudly of the deer societies trying to monopolise all deer shooting for themselves as they have always wanted to do. Imagine no legal night shooting, .223 rifles taken from anybody that does, any shot heard is illegal so makes it easier to catch deer poachers in theory. All at the expense of the sport of thousands of hunters who have invested heavily both financially and are avid law abiding sportspeople. This is a disgusting thing for any so-called sporting body to create and should be met with the opposition and disdain that it deserves.0
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As i said above, and ye all know only too well, there is already enough law there. It's just not enforced.
The NPWS have no rangers in the Laois/Offaly area due to man power shortage and diverting others to Wexford/Wicklow. I''d say this is a common thing in other areas too. An Gardaí are loosing people quicker than they are recruiting. A recent article said off the 800 recruited/future recruits in the next couple of years, over 1,200 have retired/will retire in the same period making a loss to the force of 400+. With waiting times for calls to Garda stations in the 2 hour mark, closing of local stations, shooting locations be so rural and at times inaccessible, as well as the (and we won't touch it for the sake of keeping the thread clean) the recent spate of "unpleasantness" exactly how can they expect to enforce new laws when they cannot police the current ones.
Again i have to talk about legislation. When the shooting bodies, Garda Inspectorate, and the Law society told the Minister for justice that the firearm laws need a complete re-writing and overhaul nothing came of it. the sheer amount of work involved would be huge and costly. now this won't be on that scale, but it'll affect so many different aspects as to be just as unpleasant, still costly, and in the end NOT solve the existing problem that these proposals seek to address. POACHING. Plain and simple.
It's what all of this is about. You can dress it up and slap whatever tag you want on it, but that is what it's about. The crap about burglaries, etc. is just that, crap. When was the last time you read about a hunter burglarizing a dwelling on their permissions? If, as the article claims, "illegal hunters" are also the cause of these burglaries then there is existing law to deal with them. All they need to do is be caught. However using the word hunter and illegal/burglary in the same sentence is simply provocative and makes as much sense as saying drug dealers are linked to Pharmacies.
Look at the deer body dump some months back. Anything more about it. Perhaps these groups should focus on the job they currently have and try police that, instead of looking for new ways to f**k up everyone else's sport/lifestyle.
I'll say it again. Their attitude is to legislate it to the point where it'll police itself. IOW ban enough stuff then anyone doing ANYTHING is breaking the law. A slippery slope, and we're on the edge.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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richiedel123 wrote: »Its the worst planned load of crap i have read. Most of it is unworkable in my opinion and if it does get enforced i can see a lot of law abiding shooters getting in trouble because they got delayed going home or held up talking to the farmer
We could take a leaf out of the French people book, mass disobedience against stupid unworkable laws.0 -
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Again i have to talk about legislation. When the shooting bodies, Garda Inspectorate, and the Law society told the Minister for justice that the firearm laws need a complete re-writing and overhaul nothing came of it. the sheer amount of work involved would be huge and costly. now this won't be on that scale, but it'll affect so many different aspects as to be just as unpleasant, still costly, and in the end NOT solve the existing problem that these proposals seek to address. POACHING. Plain and simple.
It's what all of this is about. You can dress it up and slap whatever tag you want on it, but that is what it's about. The crap about burglaries, etc. is just that, crap. When was the last time you read about a hunter burglarizing a dwelling on their permissions? If, as the article claims, "illegal hunters" are also the cause of these burglaries then there is existing law to deal with them. All they need to do is be caught. However using the word hunter and illegal/burglary in the same sentence is simply provocative and makes as much sense as saying drug dealers are linked to Pharmacies.
But really the gardai are not the ones to sort out deer poaching, thats down to the inspection of game dealers and scrutiny of the people selling them huge amounts of carcasses by the taxman. I have heard of people in very ordinary low paying jobs cleaning up poaching deer.0 -
I agree with you Gunny, but the problem here is the attack on one sport under the guise of something else.
Poaching has been around for decades and frankly it'll never be eliminated. However there are laws in place for allow people caught to be prosecuted. So how does banning foxing help poaching? In the same way as banning handguns from legal owners helped with gangland crime.
Oh wait, it didn't.
Not being a dick but for the moment i'm trying to steer clear of moving the thread in another direction, especially onto another poaching thread as the really important part and reason fro the thread may get lost.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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I agree with you Gunny, but the problem here is the attack on one sport under the guise of something else.
Poaching has been around for decades and frankly it'll never be eliminated. However there are laws in place for allow people caught to be prosecuted. So how does banning foxing help poaching? In the same way as banning handguns from legal owners helped with gangland crime.
Oh wait, it didn't.
Not being a dick but for the moment i'm trying to steer clear of moving the thread in another direction, especially onto another poaching thread as the really important part and reason fro the thread may get lost.
Yeah i know cass, but they are attempting to ban lamping under the guise of stopping poaching, so really its not a totally separate subject. My point was if the sc wanted to seriously do something to tackle poaching, there are plenty of things that could be done that would stand a far better chance of working, and not piss off thousands of legitimate shooters.0 -
I know and as said i agree. However until Thursday i'm trying to keep the focus on letter/e-mail writing and then we can discuss the poaching aspect which is not only relevant, but from the parties involved, key to the proposals.Y.......... so really its not a totally separate subject.
Yeahl, like ENFORCE THE CURRENT LAWS.My point was if the sc wanted to seriously do something to tackle poaching, there are plenty of things that could be done that would stand a far better chance of working, and not piss off thousands of legitimate shooters.
Not shouting at you, just pisses me off.Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County
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Hi,
Minutes of the last meetings appear to suggest the following members but may not be limited to:
Department of Justice and Equality: Marion Walsh (Chair), John Guinane (Firearms Range Inspector), Brendan O’Loughlin, Sinead Leyden, Catherine Morrin
An Garda SÃochána: Chief Superintendent Fergus Healy, Inspector Paul Greene,
Sports Coalition: Des Crofton, Paul Walsh, Sean Gilliland, Frank Brophy or Gerry McCarthy
National Target Shooting Association of Ireland: Kealan Symes
National Rifle Association of Ireland: John Paul Craven or Joe Costelloe
Sport Ireland: Austin Mallon or Erika Murphy
Wild Deer Association: Patrick Scully
Irish Deer Society: Liam McGarry
Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association: Bill O’Brien or Cian Merne
Countryside Alliance: Mark Maguire
Irish Farmers' Association: Colin Connolly or Bernard Phelan
National Association of Sporting Rifle & Pistol Clubs: Martin Hayes
National Parks & Wildlife Service: Wesley Atkinson,
However personally i may not agree with some of the comments on the NARGC. NARGC did have representation since PCP formation in 2008 and on the revamped 2015 FCP and when for whatever reasons Des Crofton, our Director could not go to meetings after feb 2016 we should have had a stand in. WE took our eye off the ball and lets admit it. No harm in saying we got it wrong if that is the case. I personally warned our clubs on several occasions that problems on night shooting was coming down the line. If i knew about it, a lot of other shooters also knew about it. What i did NOT know was that NARGC was not represented after feb 2016. I also do not consider that the working group played fair knowing that the biggest shooting representative group of sporting hunters, conservationists, vermin controllers and farmers friends when they are in trouble because of predation of livestock were not at the table and were being excluded. Alarm bells must have been ringing and they IGNORED them. Not on in a stakeholder group.0 -
Hi,
Minutes of the last meetings appear to suggest the following members but may not be limited to:
Department of Justice and Equality: Marion Walsh (Chair), John Guinane (Firearms Range Inspector), Brendan O’Loughlin, Sinead Leyden, Catherine Morrin
An Garda SÃochána: Chief Superintendent Fergus Healy, Inspector Paul Greene,
Sports Coalition: Des Crofton, Paul Walsh, Sean Gilliland, Frank Brophy or Gerry McCarthy
National Target Shooting Association of Ireland: Kealan Symes
National Rifle Association of Ireland: John Paul Craven or Joe Costelloe
Sport Ireland: Austin Mallon or Erika Murphy
Wild Deer Association: Patrick Scully
Irish Deer Society: Liam McGarry
Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association: Bill O’Brien or Cian Merne
Countryside Alliance: Mark Maguire
Irish Farmers' Association: Colin Connolly or Bernard Phelan
National Association of Sporting Rifle & Pistol Clubs: Martin Hayes
National Parks & Wildlife Service: Wesley Atkinson,
However personally i may not agree with some of the comments on the NARGC. NARGC did have representation since PCP formation in 2008 and on the revamped 2015 FCP and when for whatever reasons Des Crofton, our Director could not go to meetings after feb 2016 we should have had a stand in. WE took our eye off the ball and lets admit it. No harm in saying we got it wrong if that is the case. I personally warned our clubs on several occasions that problems on night shooting was coming down the line. If i knew about it, a lot of other shooters also knew about it. What i did NOT know was that NARGC was not represented after feb 2016. I also do not consider that the working group played fair knowing that the biggest shooting representative group of sporting hunters, conservationists, vermin controllers and farmers friends when they are in trouble because of predation of livestock were not at the table and were being excluded. Alarm bells must have been ringing and they IGNORED them. Not on in a stakeholder group.
Nargc was represented by the sports coalition as always since the fcp came back into being. Des Crofton wasn't there but Paul Walsh took over in his place as acting chair. The problem from what I'm told was the information wasn't coming back from the sports coalition as to what was happening.
That's why the nargc voted to leave the sports coalition and get our own chair. And it is because we have our own chair we got the information that this working group had came up with this report. If the nargc was still in the sports coalition we wouldn't have got this information. None of the groups involved in making this report came out and told us what was going on!!!
Can u think of any reason why???0 -
Profoundly upsetting.
All bodies and individuals supporting this will be remembered and action will be taking to burst their bubble from now to eternity.
Night time hunters need to band together into a group that reps their rank and file. Then we too might get to seat at the table.
Do the creators of this nonsense realise that it's suggesting that we restrict hunting times to those months when foxes are with Cubs.
Do they think that deer aren't poached during the summer
Do they even have figures on deer numbers being poached.
Some counties are screaming for a cull on deer.
Do they realise that they will be arresting people who will inevitably not accept this ****.
I'm a solo hunter, I have no NGB rep. I will join any organisation formed that is specifically there for fox/rabbit/night/hunters. I have had enough.
These people will never be forgotten.0 -
The NARGC set up the Sports Coalition back when all of a sudden the Dept of Justice was going to start seising all our guns around November 2014. It was funded by the NARGC and the National Director was the Chairman.
When the National Director was off sick last year this acting chairman was appointed and apparently was less than disposed to answer any questions from the NARGC Chairman as to the activities of the SC. I believe from reports at the GB Meeting he was quite beligerent towards the NARGC Chairman.
NARGC finally saw sense after a lot of lobbying, really concerns from Clubs through the counties and got out and now have a place on the FCP in its own right.
According to our delegates none of this was ever brought to the attention of the NARGC at anytime in 2016 through the SC in any format.....I wonder why?
The Sports Coalition is defunct it just doesnt know it yet, in no part caused by its own self destruction and arrogance and it represents in the main only vested interests mainly involved in commercial activities (ranges and gun dealers). Strong argument to say the acting Chairman's position is untenable after this mess.
Last year this report was a rumour, as was ballistic testing of all firearms in private ownership cost to be borne by the owner, a safe pass style course for shotgun/rifle all to be carried out at approved centres. Sports Coalition to offer there own insurance scheme. I fear that what broke over the weekend is only the tip of the iceberg.
Word over the weekend is the ICPSA will be gone next...not sure how true but there is a lot of crossover between clays and game.
How true it is I don't know, but after reading the final report on night time shooting, what is clear is they do not have the interests of the majority of lawabiding shooting community in mind and have no issue with lumping us all in with nefarious activities and criminality instead of steadfastly defending us. We don't hear the Sports Coalition strongly object to anything. WHY??
I'm also at a lost why in all the "were all in this together veneer" someone didn't approach the NARGC and give them a heads up on what's happening.....When literally the rumour mill was rife ..now that has me a little worried
Thursdays meeting will be telling as to where the other groups on the FCP are with the NARGC. One thing I will say The Minister has a problem if 25,000 plus shooters aren't listened too.0 -
Hi,
Minutes of the last meetings appear to suggest the following members but may not be limited to:
Department of Justice and Equality: Marion Walsh (Chair), John Guinane (Firearms Range Inspector), Brendan O’Loughlin, Sinead Leyden, Catherine Morrin
An Garda SÃ႒á‚’á‚’Âochána: Chief Superintendent Fergus Healy, Inspector Paul Greene,
Sports Coalition: Des Crofton, Paul Walsh, Sean Gilliland, Frank Brophy or Gerry McCarthy
National Target Shooting Association of Ireland: Kealan Symes
National Rifle Association of Ireland: John Paul Craven or Joe Costelloe
Sport Ireland: Austin Mallon or Erika Murphy
Wild Deer Association: Patrick Scully
Irish Deer Society: Liam McGarry
Irish Clay Pigeon Shooting Association: Bill O’Brien or Cian Merne
Countryside Alliance: Mark Maguire
Irish Farmers' Association: Colin Connolly or Bernard Phelan
National Association of Sporting Rifle & Pistol Clubs: Martin Hayes
National Parks & Wildlife Service: Wesley Atkinson,
However personally i may not agree with some of the comments on the NARGC. NARGC did have representation since PCP formation in 2008 and on the revamped 2015 FCP and when for whatever reasons Des Crofton, our Director could not go to meetings after feb 2016 we should have had a stand in. WE took our eye off the ball and lets admit it. No harm in saying we got it wrong if that is the case. I personally warned our clubs on several occasions that problems on night shooting was coming down the line. If i knew about it, a lot of other shooters also knew about it. What i did NOT know was that NARGC was not represented after feb 2016. I also do not consider that the working group played fair knowing that the biggest shooting representative group of sporting hunters, conservationists, vermin controllers and farmers friends when they are in trouble because of predation of livestock were not at the table and were being excluded. Alarm bells must have been ringing and they IGNORED them. Not on in a stakeholder group.
I'd be very worried if those names are attached to the last minutes of the FCP seeing as Martin Hayes was replaced on the FCP by the NASRPC over a year ago.0 -
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The nargc should be in there, not to support rubbish like this, but to block other "representatives" having an open goal unhindered. Better off on the inside piddling out than on the outside piddling in.
Just to give a rough chronological breakdown:
Sports Coalition formed in 2014? by NARGC and others, Chairman being the National Director.
New Chairman and Exec elected into NARGC October 2015.(EXEC of NARGC made up entirely of ordinary shooting individuals.)
Questions get asked about a lot of things including the operation of the S.C.
S.C changes Chairman in mid 2016 sometime? NARGC had no knowledge that this was going to happen.
NARGC ask repeatedly for a meeting of the S.C. in Autumn/Winter 2016.
Meeting not forthcoming.
NARGC vote to leave S.C in Feb 2017
NARGC Get two seats on FCP.
Receive minutes of this working group last Thursday.
New Regime of NARGC say WTF and send it to all regions..
NARGC will do all in its power to block this. Huge effort made to get answers from S.C. and then get a seat at FCP.
We are talking hours of work. This would have been game over but for that work.
In tray of S.C should be flooded with request to undo these guideline.0
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