Waterford GAA Discussion Thread - **MOD NOTE POST #1**

cascade12 wrote: »

I could be wrong but did Shane Roche not come on for Barry Coughlan right at the end on Sunday.

Stephen

enoughtaken wrote: »

Yep, here it is in black and white
[font=Georgia, serif]Subs: T Devine for Curran (42), M Kearney for A Gleeson (56),  T Ryan for O’Halloran (58), G O’Brien for Shane Bennett (68), S Roche for Coughlan (75).[/font]

Stephen midget Roche not shane Roche. Shane roche dropped himself off the panel due to a lack of game time.

Hope Barry Couglan recovers quickly. However he is not an inter county standard full back. He was given the run around by a half fit Seamus Callanan, by Fennelly, Ryan and Shanagher. He persistently fouls. What is worse is, that referees are now wise to that. They are the facts whether Derek McGrath likes it or not. Managers in other counties have spotted the weaknesses in the Waterford set up. McGrath has a closed mind in relation to several players within the county. Common knowlege!! Incidentally I have no connection with any of them. Amazing how those who rush to defend McGrath are very quick to slate Tadhg De Burca who has to act as a de facto second full back to cover a weakness in the full backline. Of course Tadhg is not from De la Salle.

culbaire wrote: »

Hope Barry Couglan recovers quickly. However he is not an inter county standard full back. He was given the run around by a half fit Seamus Callanan, by Fennelly, Ryan and Shanagher. He persistently fouls. What is worse is, that referees are now wise to that. They are the facts whether Derek McGrath likes it or not. Managers in other counties have spotted the weaknesses in the Waterford set up. McGrath has a closed mind in relation to several players within the county. Common knowlege!! Incidentally I have no connection with any of them. Amazing how those who rush to defend McGrath are very quick to slate Tadhg De Burca who has to act as a de facto second full back to cover a weakness in the full backline. Of course Tadhg is not from De la Salle.

Jesus wept

tbf if you are talking about lads at the moment who could add something to the thing more so than lads who are just making up the numbers and who are not up to it - we don't need to name them because they are all honest to God lads who are bursting a gut but we all know who they are and we all know they will never get near to wearing a league not to mind a championship shirt - here are a few just off the top of my head...

Peter Hogan, Ray Barry, Shane Walsh (BG) Shane Roche, Ryan Donnelly, Gavin Crotty, Paudie Prendergast, Jamie Nagle, Richie Foley - what did they do wrong?

Foley, Nagle, Barry and Prendergast have all excelled in the championship for Waterford. and are all still flying with their clubs. Shane Roche never got a look in while he was on the panel. Peter Hogan, Shane Walsh, Gavin Crotty and Ryan Donnelly are the mainstays of their club teams and are well tested at inter county level. All of the above are still real championship options.

It would be nice to have a few of those options now if Darragh Fives and Barry Coughlan don't make it or if we need a bit of pace in our one man forward line.

Can you really say the same for the eight or nine more lads who are making up the numbers on the panel at the moment?

Deise Gael wrote: »

tbf if you are talking about lads at the moment who could add something to the thing more so than lads who are just making up the numbers and who are not up to it - we don't need to name them because they are all honest to God lads who are bursting a gut but we all know who they are and we all know they will never get near to wearing a league not to mind a championship shirt - here are a few just off the top of my head...

Peter Hogan, Ray Barry, Shane Walsh (BG) Shane Roche, Ryan Donnelly, Gavin Crotty, Paudie Prendergast, Jamie Nagle, Richie Foley - what did they do wrong?

Foley, Nagle, Barry and Prendergast have all excelled in the championship for Waterford. and are all still flying with their clubs. Shane Roche never got a look in while he was on the panel. Peter Hogan, Shane Walsh, Gavin Crotty and Ryan Donnelly are the mainstays of their club teams and are well tested at inter county level. All of the above are still real championship options.

It would be nice to have a few of those options now if Darragh Fives and Barry Coughlan don't make it or if we need a bit of pace in our one man forward line.

Can you really say the same for the eight or nine more lads who are making up the numbers on the panel at the moment?

Agree 100%

cascade12 wrote: »

Loads of players have been given a chance in this campaign

What new players have been given a chance exactly?

How many new players did we unearth during the League?

For a Manager who stated publicly that he was not worried about relegation there was absolutely no experimentation whatsoever during the League. Any personnel changes - bar Iggy - were enforced. Hence we are now left with the problem at FB.

The way I see it we weren't good enough last year so we need to improve. We can do that in two ways - find some new talent and improve our way of playing.

Tipp, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare and Cork and have all made changes and tried new things in an effort to improve.

To me it looks like we have done neither but maybe Derek is holding something back for the championship. I can only hope he is.

culbaire wrote: »

You used the expression 'magnificent four'. NOT I. Would you care to address my remarks re the full back position? Of course not! What we have had under Derek McGrath is ruck and maul bastardised hurling with a defence system similar to rugby union. The forward formation is a shambles. Skill levels of players are deteriorating. We have players running around like super fit greyhounds piling into rucks and killing free flowing hurling. This is a mask to hide the weaknesses in the backline. There are several players who can't tackle correctly.

Derek McGrath has a closed mind in relation to several players in the county. The whole county knows it. There are players on the currrent panel and team who have been tried and tried and found wanting. Amazing that you are not as dismissive of them as you are of others who have never got a fair chance. You just blithely dismiss them and write them off.

To achieve success very hard decisions are essential. That means dropping friends where necessary. That's the difference between managers like Brian Cody and Derek McGrath. Brian Cody is never slow to seek advice. Down through the years Brian Cody has adopted a policy of dropping players who dont deliver-All Stars or no All Stars. There is no automatic selection. Deliver or face demotion to the bench! Derek McGrath? Thats the difference between success and failure.

You've clearly never watched rugby if you think that's a similar defensive set up.

Well as so many are asking how these players are then clearly the whole county does not know about this closed mind. The other poster named some good players but at least two of them declined call ups to the panel as they want to play soccer as well as club hurling. Can't blame them if that's what they want.

I can only think of one player who hasn't really contributed this year despite starting all the games. So who are these examples you can provide?

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

You've clearly never watched rugby if you think that's a similar defensive set up.

Well as so many are asking how these players are then clearly the whole county does not know about this closed mind. The other poster named some good players but at least two of them declined call ups to the panel as they want to play soccer as well as club hurling. Can't blame them if that's what they want.

I can only think of one player who hasn't really contributed this year despite starting all the games. So who are these examples you can provide?

I will debate the rules of Rugby Union with you any day. Also the rules of Rugby League. Bring it on!

I think he deserves the year. The semi final was the game he targeted last year and it could have gone our way. I don't think we would have beaten Tipp in the final though.

I still think Tipp are the best team in the country. I can't understand how people think if we improve we'll automatically beat them. They will improve too. And teams like Kilkenny, Clare, Galway and maybe Limerick, Cork and Wexford are capable of beating any team.

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

I think he deserves the year. The semi final was the game he targeted last year and it could have gone our way. I don't think we would have beaten Tipp in the final though.

I still think Tipp are the best team in the country. I can't understand how people think if we improve we'll automatically beat them. They will improve too. And teams like Kilkenny, Clare, Galway and maybe Limerick, Cork and Wexford are capable of beating any team.

Nobody has said that we will automatically win anything but will you please lay out how we have improved or even at least least attempted to improve from last year compared to the teams I mentioned above who have patently used the League for that purpose- Tipp, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare?

Can you tell me what Waterford have learned?

Deise Gael wrote: »

Nobody has said that we will automatically win anything but will you please lay out how we have improved or even at least least attempted to improve from last year compared to the teams I mentioned above who have patently used the League for that purpose- Tipp, Kilkenny, Dublin, Clare?

Can you tell me what Waterford have learned?

Dublin have used the league to improve? God help them if so. I'd also question how clare have done that considering they're contesting a relegation final having won it last year? Kilkenny have played the best team available to them throughout. They are in a very different position to Waterford. Tipp had a conveyor belt of talent coming through so he gave them exposure. Their panel is much deeper than ours or anyone else's.

I really don't see how this league has any bearing on championship. There's a good break before the first games which will be played on different ground entirely.

Also Waterford had a high level of participation in the fitz this year. That disrupts the county team more than is acknowledged, they trained with 10 at times. Those lads come back in varying conditions so they may not be as effective for a few months.

To answer your question I don't know if we have improved. Much in the same way I don't know if other counties have. We could win the league if we wanted by targeting it (like 2015) but we don't have the depth in the squad (despite some feeling we do) to then sustain that into championship. If we lose in the semi final of Munster and again to a lesser team after then we didn't progress. But I think the management team deserve the chance in championship first. From last winter they've said that was the aim this year.

blueflame wrote: »

I have no problem giving the management team to the end of the year and I do understand that the entire focus can be on championship and that is what success or failure will be measured on.

However I have a concern and it is in my view a very legitimate one - can you set up a team to play in a certain way and they at the drop of a hat change it - I don't think so - last year in the first game we exploded out of the blocks against KK but when the pressure came on we responded in the manner that we had played all year - we retreated into our shell and left them steal the game from us - second day out we again went toe to toe but as the second half progressed we again fell back into our shell until Fennelly went off injured and then we went for it, but too late. Basically we lacked the belief when seeing the line in front of us to push on and grasp it, rather then stepping on the gas we retreated and this is because it is what we are used to doing, it is what we are trained to do - you cannot just change overnight

If it is the plan to change tactic completely when do they propose to reveal it - in our first game out? a Munster Final?, a Qualifier? an All Ireland Semi Final or do we wait and hope to get to a Final and then release the beast? We must start to build toward a tactic that will get the best from our players, and build their own belief in themselves so that it become second nature. When Tipp Or KK get in a position of dominance they push and and kill the game, if they get a chance to put their foot on your throath they will do it, no fears.

My belief is that a change of tactics will only come as a result of a forced change and i believe the the current tactics are just not playing to our strengths.

I believe our full-back line would benefit greatly from increased pressure in the opposition back line and a reduction in the amount and quality of ball that is being rained in on them under the present system.

I believe the likes of de Burca, Darragh Fives and Aussie who are all excellent hurlers would benefit greatly from a more open area around their part of the field and would themselves be able to deliver high quality ball to our forwards.

I believe Jamie Barron and Kevin Moran with their engines would revel in open play and the extra space in less congested areas.

I believe we have enough potential ball winners in Brick, Mahony, Maurice, Devine or Foran to win their own ball in the half forward line.

I believe that a full forward line of the two Bennett's, Curran, Dunford, Dillon O'Halloran have enough pace. movement and craft to create havoc near goal and tie down opposition backs.

All I am asking is that the management try and build a system that will allow these players reach their combined potential and if we can win an All Ireland (which is a massive task) doing that brilliant - unfortunately i do not see us winning one with current tactics. The current management team have in my view enough brains , insight and dedication to give this a real go, but the big question is have they the courage to trust - to trust themselves and trust their players.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of this but in fairness I can see the logic of your argument. I'm hopeful that the aim is the championship but I can understand your viewpoint.

Some talk that our new selector has left the set up already, along with Gavin O'Brien.

Does anyone know if tg4 are showing Waterford v Galway Sunday ?

The outstanding feature of the game in Ennis last Sunday was the way that Waterford almost completely changed their style of play in the second half. In the first half it was the same old brainless style we have become familiar with in the Derek McGrath era, using the wind to lash long ball after long ball into the Clare goal area. However, once Clare recovered from Waterford’s whirlwind start they took almost complete control, swarm-tackling Waterford players in possession and working their way out of defence using highly-structured passing movements.

Once they got the ball to a loose man in the midfield area, they took the Waterford half back line completely out of the game by playing the ball in over them, and by directing the ball into the corners they also were able to by-pass the deep-lying Tadhg de Búrca. Amazingly, the Waterford wing backs, Stephen Daniels and Shane McNulty, only got three possessions between them in the first half, and two of these were short puckouts from Stephen O’Keeffe. Meanwhile, the excellent quality of ball coming in gave the Clare full forwards the upper hand on their markers, and between them they got 16 possessions between them whereas, apart from short puckouts, the Waterford full backs only got six possessions.

While the Waterford wingbacks only got one possession (allowing for short puckouts) between them, their opposite numbers got 12. However, most of these possessions came from passes rather than winning the ball against their markers in one-to-one situations. Meanwhile, as has become a regular pattern, with Tadhg de Búrca lying deep, as usual, the Clare No. 11 Podge Collins ran riot in the first half, getting on the ball no less than 13 times in that half alone. Every other county is now putting a mobile playmaker with scoring ability into the big hole in the middle of the Waterford defence, and no effective measures to counteract this have been apparent.

By contrast, the Clare centre back, Conor Cleary, playing in a much more forward role, performed a key fulcrum role in Clare’s passing system, always available to take passes from his full and wing backs and move the ball forwards. He had eleven possessions in the first half.

The only consolation for Waterford from Clare’s tactic of playing the ball into the corners was that they never threatened the Waterford goal, with de Búrca playing his usual highly-effective covering role. The only goal that Clare got was an out-of-the-blue unstoppable bullet from 30 metres by Collins.

A major element in the Clare system was the superb long-range passing of their goalkeeper, Andrew Fahy. His first two puckouts went long, and were both won by Waterford. From then to the closing stages (when Clare were chasing the game), Fahy never again hit a long puckout to a contested area. He was superb at finding his team mates in space a long way from his goal. In the first half he hit ten puckouts into the hands of team mates outside the 45 metre line (two of them outside 65 metres despite being hit into a stiff wind). Of course the other half of this equation was Clare players making themselves available to take these balls, and Waterford did not work hard enough to close these players down.

Stephen O’Keeffe did hit seven short puckouts in the first half, but every one of them was to a player on the 20 metre line, and he in turn invariably then drove the ball to more or less where it would have landed had O’Keeffe gone long in the first place. The contrast between Clare’s well-thought-out strategy and the lack of thought in the Waterford short puckouts could not have been more stark.

The upshot of all this is that, whereas Waterford hit a total of just 13 completed passes in the first half, Clare hit no less than 53. Yet, when the half time whistle blew, Clare were still only two points ahead, made possible by Waterford’s early scoring burst, great long range points from Patrick Curran, Austin Gleeson and Pauric Mahony and a couple of handy frees conceded by Clare. However, I was very fearful for the second half, given Clare’s domination of the play in the first half and the fact that, despite playing against the wind, they had the same number of shots at goal as Waterford (19).

Whatever was said in the dressing-room at half time, Waterford adopted a completely different style of play in the second half, one which some of us have been yearning for but which we have not really seen before in the McGrath era. In other words, Waterford started passing the ball around, working the ball out from the defence into midfield and sending a lot of good directed ball into the forwards (although there was still too much of the old high ball down on isolated, double-marked, forwards, as the TG4 commentator himself observed).

In that second half, Waterford actually effected more completed passes than Clare (54/45). While this had the effect of reducing Clare’s amount of possession, the latter remained high and Waterford’s improved play was serving only to stem, rather than reverse, the Clare wind-assisted tide. Where Stephen O’Keeffe continued to restrict his short puckouts to players on his own 20 metre line, Fahy was still hitting superb long balls to players in the midfield area, adding to the pressure on the Waterford defence. With just 14 minutes left on the clock, Clare had doubled their half-time lead to four points, and only one result looked likely.

Waterford’s achievement in digging out a victory in these circumstances can, I think, be put down to three key factors. Firstly, Clare hit a series of bad wides in the closing stages. This may be linked to the second factor, which is that Waterford looked fitter and stronger in those closing stages, which tends to bear out reports that Waterford have been putting a huge effort into strength and conditioning this year. The third factor was the astonishing impact Tom Devine had on the game following his introduction in the 43rd minute. In his time on the pitch, Devine secured 10 possessions, scored 1-1, set up several further scores and created general havoc in the Clare defence. I have been doubtful of Devine’s ability to make it as a forward at this level, as I thought he lacked the requisite close skills, but he certainly stepped up to the plate on this occasion.

This game also marked the full entry onto the senior intercounty stage of Stephen Bennett who produced a marvellous effort from start to finish, reflected in 16 possessions (topped only by Tadhg de Búrca on 17). Austin Gleeson also made a major contribution, with 15 possessions in his 58 minutes on the pitch, while Brick Walsh’s typical hard-working input was reflected in 14 possessions.

Shane Bennett also showed a welcome return to form, and hopefully the team management will have noted how effective he was raiding from the right side of the field, which particularly suits a left-sided hurler. On the other hand, Patrick Curran had something of an off-day, and it struck me that he had lost some weight recently (not what you would expect from a strength and conditioning programme). I thought Brian O’Halloran had a good first half, getting in three shots (two successful) and again showing his knack of being able to turn up where the action is.

Some people on this thread have been dismissive of Stephen Daniels. However, bearing in mind how good he was before he suffered that awful knee injury a couple of years ago and how it takes time to get back up to speed at this level, I think he should be persevered with. We lack the kind of drive and strength he brings to the wing back position, and last Sunday I thought he showed the value of these qualities in the closing stages.

By the same token I don’t think that Conor Gleeson has the strength required in the full back line and in my view his undoubted ability would be better used elsewhere. As other posters here have pointed out, Derek McGrath’s failure to give any other specialist full backs game time in the earlier games really came home to roost last Sunday and could have proved fatal.

Two final points, one a recurring bugbear of mine. Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett are two of the most exciting scoring prospects I have ever seen emerging in Waterford (and both at the same time). Yet on separate occasions in last Sunday’s game, each of these players found themselves clearing ball 30 metres from their own goal. I just cannot see the sense of this. And to see what Waterford are really capable of, I would ask those who have a recording of the game to look at a passage in the 63rd minute when a short puckout to Tadhg de Búrca went through a further series of superb passes via Tommy Ryan, Kevin Moran and Tom Devine to Stephen Bennett who nailed a brilliant point. This is the kind of hurling Waterford should be trying to play all the time.

Possession count: S O’Keeffe (7); S Fives (8); B Coughlan (4); C Gleeson (8); S Daniels (10); T de Búrca (17); S McNulty (7); A Gleeson (15); K Moran (8); B O’Halloran (8); P Mahony (9); M Walsh (14); Shane Bennett (11); Patrick Curran (8); Stephen Bennett (16); T Devine (10); M Kearney (1); T Ryan (3); C Dunford (4).