Louise O Neill on rape culture.

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 05:17AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

but Louise o Neill is go around tell us. we are rapist and we are a from a rape culture. march up to Dublin demand a public inquiry into Judge Curtin in kerry and the Garda in kerry and watch and see what will happen by putting the spot light on minster Frances Fitgerald Louise o Nell never talked about this Judge Curtin

Louise O'Neill wasn't in journalism at the time-but there was literally nothing they could do to Curtin. Zilch. Only thing they could potentially do is get him fired. That was it.

After that, yeah, he was in the clear.

LoN doesn't really care about helping-remember, she didn't even march for 'women'. (I hyphenate that because I know many women who did not agree with the march-a few youtubers have made comments of their own on this).

please helpThank YOU · 12-03-2017 05:20AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Louise O'Neill wasn't in journalism at the time-but there was literally nothing they could do to Curtin. Zilch. Only thing they could potentially do is get him fired. That was it.

After that, yeah, he was in the clear.

LoN doesn't really care about helping-remember, she didn't even march for 'women'. (I hyphenate that because I know many women who did not agree with the march-a few youtubers have made comments of their own on this).

the Garda in kerry are still there.?

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 06:19AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

the Garda in kerry are still there.?

Yes, they are, but Curtin's case went to court, and he was found not guilty. Unless new evidence was uncovered, he cannot go to trial for the same thing again.

ivytwine · 12-03-2017 09:11AM

Grayson wrote: »

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

Culture: "the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
"Afro-Caribbean culture""

So do you feel that Ireland has ideas, customs, and social behaviour supporting rape? If so could you give me cross-society examples of such. The Listowel case isn't one- it's so shocking precisely because it's an anomaly.

By definition it's the majority of people. Even a subculture needs the support of *all* its members. You wouldn't be a member of a goth subculture if you didn't wear the clothes, listen to the music etc.

Rapists are generally rather secretive about their crimes. They're separated from the general prison population for a reason. If Ireland really did have a rape culture, wouldn't they be boasting down the pub about it?

You keep saying you believe it's not the majority. Good, I agree with you. A culture needs numbers to exist. And the numbers aren't there.

You sound like a man who is disgusted by the existence of rape. So please listen to me when I say that I greatly dislike this term. And this term does NOTHING to help me and people like me. It's too black and white. It takes a nut and uses a sledgehammer to break it. It takes the blame from the individual and assigns it to wider society. Again the man who did what he did to me CHOSE to do so. Ireland's "rape culture" didn't make him do so. Do you think his friends would be impressed with his actions? I doubt it. Saying Ireland has a rape culture does... what, exactly? We'll wring our hands and say isn't it awful men don't police their friends' language and bla bla bla. Or we can say yeah services for victims are poor. Judges and barristers need to be coached to realise they're dealing with trauma victims. Rural services need to be improve. Instead of surveying people's attitudes to rape (because that achieves what exactly?) maybe we could survey victims in Ireland and ask them what could be improved.

Rape won't be eliminated. Sorry. Let's get that out there now. There will always be evil ****ers. But let's punish them, let's look at our sentencing and bail which allows serial attackers free to offend again- that's not just for this, but for all crime.

Finally I want to add- my ex policed my language. He never would have spoken crudely about an actress etc. (He seemed almost afraid to express desire). But he wasn't there for me when it counted. I'd rather someone who might crack a terrible joke on ocassion but would TRY to understand me and how this has affected me.

mzungu · 12-03-2017 12:07PM

Grayson wrote: »

Once again. Saying Ireland has a rape culture is not the same as saying Irish culture is a rape culture. At no point am I throwing a saying that everyone is a rapist and/or fine with rape. I'm not even saying the majority are.

Grayson wrote:

It's not everyone. At no point have I said it's everyone. I've gone to great pains to say it over and over again (Yet some still think I am).

Considering you were responding directly to my post can you please state where you think I did it? May I remind you I specifically stated in my post that I did not think that you were doing that. As you can see below....

mzungu wrote:

Yep, you didn't say everyone was at it

As you can see, that ground has already been covered. Anyways, moving on....

Grayson wrote:

And posting that someone laughed at sharon osbourne is not the same thing. Did 10% of americans say that they support castrating men? Do 10% think that a man should have his bits chopped off because of what he's wearing?
10% of Irish people think that it's ok to have sex with a woman without her consent if she's dressed sexy. That's a sizeable amount.
Think of it the next time you're on a bus. Look around and think that 10% of those people think it's ok to rape a woman if they're wearing sexy clothes.

You may have missed my earlier post in response to those figures, so I will repost it here again.

Is this the study you are referring to?

The results don't seem to make much sense.

For example, the results state that 21% said sex without consent is acceptable in certain situations and 11% said being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

But at the same time....

97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

How exactly do these two sets of figures add up? Violence against women, lewd remarks, unwanted pictures and contact is shown to be unacceptable by 97% and higher, but then 21% believe sex without consent is fine?

Something is not right with the above.

Also, we don't know how they defined consent (or even if they did define it) for the study. I think clues to the results may lie in the wording of the wording of the questions.

Here is the question from that study concerning consent that the figures were taken from:

QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?

(SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)

Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Being drunk or using drugs
Flirting beforehand
Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Being out walking alone at night,
Having several sexual partners
Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
If the assailant regrets his actions
None of these
Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
Don't know

Take the wording of the question itself. It starts off with "Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations." So, immediately it is guiding the respondent to think of other people rather than him or herself. Then asks "Do you think this applies to the following circumstances?"

That leaves a hell of a lot of room for misinterpretation.

ivytwine · 12-03-2017 12:21PM

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

Sand · 12-03-2017 01:55PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

And its not accidentally misleading either. A lot of time would have been spent drafting and redrafting the it. The question is crafted to be misleading and lend itself to wilful and negative misinterpretation.

I think the people drafting this survey are either wilfully crafting the questions to get the answer they have already determined. Or are just seeking attention and funding. You don't get much media or professional reaction or money if your survey confirms what everyone already knew. It has to be shocking.

Wibbs · 12-03-2017 02:31PM

Sand wrote: »

I think the people drafting this survey are either wilfully crafting the questions to get the answer they have already determined. Or are just seeking attention and funding.

Or most likely both S. Outside the professionals who derive benefit from this kinda "statistic", the foot soldiers who buy into this stuff do so because it already confirms what they believe and the professionals have told them.

mzungu · 12-03-2017 02:49PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Yeah if you asked me "some people think black people are inferior to white people. Do you agree that is the case?" I'd be genuinely confused as to whether I was supposed to agree that yes, some people do (and they're morons for the record) or yes, I personally think black people are inferior.

Not only that, but when you delve further into the answers it gets even stranger. Here is the gender breakdown for that particular question:

Being drunk or using drugs
Male - 11 Female - 11

Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
Male - 9 Female - 8

Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Male - 7 Female - 11

Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Male 6 Female - 10

None of these
Male - 74 Female - 78

According to those stats for the question, it appears that more women than men seem to see no problem with rape in certain cases.

I think it is safe to say, a lot of the respondents misinterpreted the question (not their fault) and hence we have these bizarre results.

Just to remind, these were the results from the other questions:
97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

So, are we supposed to believe that the same women (and men) who (rightfully) find violence, lewd texts, remarks and unwanted physical to be completely wrong....those same people then turn around and say that rape is justified in certain circumstances? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The ambiguous wording of that question has a lot to answer for.

Icemancometh · 12-03-2017 03:21PM

mzungu wrote: »

Not only that, but when you delve further into the answers it gets even stranger. Here is the gender breakdown for that particular question:

According to those stats for the question, it appears that more women than men seem to see no problem with rape in certain cases.

I think it is safe to say, a lot of the respondents misinterpreted the question (not their fault) and hence we have these bizarre results.

Just to remind, these were the results from the other questions:
97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

So, are we supposed to believe that the same women (and men) who (rightfully) find violence, lewd texts, remarks and unwanted physical to be completely wrong....those same people then turn around and say that rape is justified in certain circumstances? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The ambiguous wording of that question has a lot to answer for.

There's a technique in political polling called push polling, where you phrase a question to get a certain answer. By starting off the questions with the opening line of "Some people believe," you may get a different response than if you had a more neutral question. I wonder would the question "Do you believe sexual intercourse without consent is justified in the following circumstances?" have produced the same results without the preamble saying other people think this is ok.

Outlaw Pete · 12-03-2017 03:33PM

See a female judge in UK who was accused of contributing to rape culture a few years back has again been accused of victim blaming by a Police Commissioner:

Police commissioner Vera Baird accuses Lindsey Kushner of blaming victims by warning them about risks of disinhibition.

A female judge who told women they were at greater risk of being raped if they got drunk has been accused of victim-blaming by a police commissioner.

During her sentencing of a rapist in Manchester, Lindsey Kushner said there was “absolutely no excuse” for sex attacks, but that men gravitated towards vulnerable women.

In her final case before retiring, the judge said women were entitled to “drink themselves into the ground”, but their disinhibited behaviour could put them in danger and they were less likely to be believed than a sober victim.

The Northumbria police and crime commissioner, Dame Vera Baird, said the comments were “victim-blaming” and would stop victims coming forward.

The former solicitor-general told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme: “When somebody is raped they feel guilt and shame and they find it very hard to report it.

“If a judge has just said to them ‘well, if you drank you are more likely to get raped, we are not likely to believe you and you have been disinhibited so you’ve rather brought it on yourself’ then that guilt is just going to get worse.”

Surely altering people to what increases their chances of any crime is primarily good advice. If the Gardai distribute leaflets telling people that there has been a spate of burglaries and cars broken into then I am not going to feel that advice telling me not to leave windows ajar or valuables on display inside my car is victim blaming. I mean, if I did leave a laptop on my passenger seat and it was stolen, they would still prosecute should they catch the guy (sexism) I'm sure. They're not going to say 'Well, tis your own fault and sure you could hardly expect him not to smash your window with that kind of temptation'. That would be victim blaming. Not the advice on what would increase my risk.

Widdershins · 12-03-2017 04:08PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

See a female judge in UK who was accused of contributing to rape culture a few years back has again been accused of victim blaming by a Police Commissioner:

Surely altering people to what increases their chances of any crime is primarily good advice. If the Gardai distribute leaflets telling people that there has been a spate of burglaries and cars broken into then I am not going to feel that advice telling me not to leave windows ajar or valuables on display inside my car is victim blaming. I mean, if I did leave a laptop on my passenger seat and it was stolen, they would still prosecute should they catch the guy (sexism) I'm sure. They're not going to say 'Well, tis your own fault and sure you could hardly expect him not to smash your window with that kind of temptation'. That would be victim blaming. Not the advice on what would increase my risk.

My friend was burgled and the garda who came out told him as he had no gate, a lock he never bothers to actually lock on the shed door, he was ''leaving himself wide open to theft''. They still investigated and found the getaway car. He was right, though. No sense in making it easier for a burlgar. Having said that it depends on how it's said, obviously it's not helpful to rub the nose of a distressed rape victim in it, although that's not what has happened in your link.

retro:electro · 12-03-2017 04:16PM

People are confusing and renouncing personal responsibility for victim blaming. Victim blaming would be saying "you deserved it, what else did you expect would happen", not "best not to leave your bag open waking through town, there are serious weirdos about who would take advantage of the fact that it's left open". I detest that people can't even be told to mind themselves now or it's assumed you're blaming them for whatever could potentially happen them.

Que some people "ya well I deserve to have the right to walk around town with my bag open if I so please! If some creep takes my money that is their fault! I won't be oppressed and told to close my bag for fear of being robbed in this male privilege society! Ugh!"
No. There will always be weirdos. And any man women or child could rob your money, so do what you can do to potentially prevent that and close your bag. That is not me victim blaming. That is me telling you to have some cop on for yourself.
People take measures to avoid being in ****ty situations all the time, that is not victim blaming, that is called being a responsible adult.

Outlaw Pete · 12-03-2017 04:32PM

Here's said Police Commissioner, Vera Baird (2nd from the left) on one of her day's off. Colour me surprised.

Ferrari3600 · 12-03-2017 05:00PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yes, they are, but Curtin's case went to court, and he was found not guilty. Unless new evidence was uncovered, he cannot go to trial for the same thing again.

He was found not guilty on a technicality because the warrant was a day out of date! Not surprisingly this verdict or more specifically the reason it had to be given led to a cynical reaction by the general public and media.

hatrickpatrick · 12-03-2017 05:59PM

Regarding surveys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 09:40PM

Ferrari3600 wrote: »

He was found not guilty on a technicality because the warrant was a day out of date! Not surprisingly this verdict or more specifically the reason it had to be given led to a cynical reaction by the general public and media.

Yeah, I mentioned the warrant being out of date in an earlier post-the reason for it being so was a claim that he had been out of the country/ or they had been unable to contact him due to illness or whatever.
Thus any evidence obtained with the late warrant was effectively obtained illegally-and so the child porn was inadmissable. He walked free on a technicality, but unless new info was obtained, or new evidence, then yeah-he's free.

RabbleRouser2k · 12-03-2017 09:44PM

anna080 wrote: »

People are confusing and renouncing personal responsibility for victim blaming. Victim blaming would be saying "you deserved it, what else did you expect would happen", not "best not to leave your bag open waking through town, there are serious weirdos about who would take advantage of the fact that it's left open". I detest that people can't even be told to mind themselves now or it's assumed you're blaming them for whatever could potentially happen them.

Que some people "ya well I deserve to have the right to walk around town with my bag open if I so please! If some creep takes my money that is their fault! I won't be oppressed and told to close my bag for fear of being robbed in this male privilege society! Ugh!"
No. There will always be weirdos. And any man women or child could rob your money, so do what you can do to potentially prevent that and close your bag. That is not me victim blaming. That is me telling you to have some cop on for yourself.
People take measures to avoid being in ****ty situations all the time, that is not victim blaming, that is called being a responsible adult.

It's just logical-ie cover the pad on the atm so someone doesn't steal your pin.
Or don't drink and drive else you willl kill yourself, or kill someone else.

Of course nobody blames the victim of a crime-but this is the feminist mentality-a hive mind., rather than encourage the individual.

There are even feminist groups who are 'informing' women of how they should dress-despite claims to be challenging the 'patriarchy's' attitudes of how a woman should dress.

deaddonkey15 · 13-03-2017 02:36PM

https://www.facebook.com/FlipsideIreland/videos/vb.672506642948504/673822969483538/?type=2&theater

I came across this video on Facebook earlier. Whilst I'm aware that these things can be easily edited to suit an agenda and whilst being pro choice myself, many of these girls just come across as incredibly ill-informed and unsure of what exactly repealing the 8th amendment means. The ages of these women are interesting too, largely millennials who are no doubt downing the Louise O'Neill kool-aid instead of doing actual research for themselves.

I have no doubt that if they were asked, they would also agree that we live in a rape culture before struggling to properly define or justify the term if questioned on it. This is the influence of people like O'Neill on the next generation and it's worrying.

silverharp · 13-03-2017 02:56PM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/FlipsideIreland/videos/vb.672506642948504/673822969483538/?type=2&theater

I came across this video on Facebook earlier. Whilst I'm aware that these things can be easily edited to suit an agenda and whilst being pro choice myself, many of these girls just come across as incredibly ill-informed and unsure of what exactly repealing the 8th amendment means. The ages of these women are interesting too, largely millennials who are no doubt downing the Louise O'Neill kool-aid instead of doing actual research for themselves.

Im always a bit suspect of these gotcha interviews, if they were the first 6 or 7 people he interviewed, it means something, if he ignored dozens of others that gave reasonable answers then not so much

RabbleRouser2k · 13-03-2017 04:12PM

silverharp wrote: »

Im always a bit suspect of these gotcha interviews, if they were the first 6 or 7 people he interviewed, it means something, if he ignored dozens of others that gave reasonable answers then not so much

This is clearly edited to make some folks look like idiots. (Though some help themselves). There is jump cut in interviews that shows a very obvious agenda-make these people's opinions look as dumb as possible-even the intelligent folks we wanna make look stupid.

It's not good, but then again, some of these people get aggressive when you disagree with em-so used to clicking the 'block' button on twitter they don't have an argument.

ivytwine · 13-03-2017 10:03PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

This is clearly edited to make some folks look like idiots. (Though some help themselves). There is jump cut in interviews that shows a very obvious agenda-make these people's opinions look as dumb as possible-even the intelligent folks we wanna make look stupid.

It's not good, but then again, some of these people get aggressive when you disagree with em-so used to clicking the 'block' button on twitter they don't have an argument.

Twitter is such a crock of nonsense though. Especially for discussing such complex issues. At least Facebook gives you the space for debate. Most people use twitter for I don't even know what- I know one person who pretty much follows poker accounts only- and for small numbers of left and right it's a ridiculous echo chamber. I'd dearly love for people to pay it no mind and it'll eventually go away.
It really has done so much damage to debate and discussion.

Outlaw Pete · 13-03-2017 10:07PM

As spoken about yesterday, some feminists seem to confuse warnings about what raises risk factors of being assaulted and how to reduce them, with actually being blamed for causing the assault.

I see Louise has just re-tweeted the following tweet which shows the latest poster from An Garda Siochana's 'Community Safety' as doing just that, when in actuality it is doing anything but:

https://twitter.com/TweetsbySimone/status/841388800525897731

Widdershins · 13-03-2017 10:16PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

As spoken about yesterday, some feminists seem to confuse warnings about what raises risk factors of being assaulted and how to reduce them, with actually being blamed for causing the assault.

I see Louise has just re-tweeted the following tweet which shows the latest poster from An Garda Siochana's 'Community Safety' as doing just that, when in actuality it is doing anything but:

https://twitter.com/TweetsbySimone/status/841388800525897731

I'd imagine some people find ''tell someone where you're going'' quite patronising or controlling/controlled. I actually let my other half know by text if I have a significant change of plan in the middle of a night out. I'm more likely to have to 'rescue' a friend(one in particular is a bit of a wally when she's drunk) than need rescue myself, but if something strange or bad happened I'd prefer if my route was fairly easy to work out. I've had enough bad experiences to prefer being paranoid than being sorry I wasn't.

red ears · 13-03-2017 10:20PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

As spoken about yesterday, some feminists seem to confuse warnings about what raises risk factors of being assaulted and how to reduce them, with actually being blamed for causing the assault.

I see Louise has just re-tweeted the following tweet which shows the latest poster from An Garda Siochana's 'Community Safety' as doing just that, when in actuality it is doing anything but:

https://twitter.com/TweetsbySimone/status/841388800525897731

Its reckless for louise o neill to support a tweet like that. We face all sorts of dangers in life, taking precautions is prudent and wise. Considering your personal safety on a night out is the right thing to do. As a man i don't fear getting raped but i fear getting my head kicked in so i take precautions if i'm out at night. Women need to do the same. It doesn't mean they are at fault. I don't really understand how she can't see that.

Outlaw Pete · 13-03-2017 10:27PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I'd imagine some people find ''tell someone where you're going'' quite patronising or controlling/controlled.

Seems to be aimed at teenagers rather than grown ups though tbf... I mean look at the photo.

For a community awareness campaign to be framed as the Irish State "blaming" girls for getting attacked seems an extraordinarily irresponsible thing to suggest.

On one hand these people say we live in a culture which normalizes and trivializes such assaults and then when there's a campaign of awareness about such attacks, they don't like that either.

retro:electro · 13-03-2017 10:29PM

Before Christmas the Guards also tweeted for people to be mindful that it's prime time for homes to be robbed and always make sure always your windows and doors are locked when you leave the house. Is that also the state blaming the potential victim and not the attacker? Or them just doing their best to ensure that while sh!tty things will always happen, you should do your best to try and protect yourself from something sh!tty happening to you.

Widdershins · 13-03-2017 10:32PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Seems to be aimed at teenagers rather than grown ups though...

For a community awareness campaign to be framed as the Irish State "blaming" girls for getting attacked seems an extraordinarily irresponsible thing to suggest.

On one hand these people say we live in a culture which normalizes and trivializes such assaults and then when there's a campaign of awareness about such attacks, they don't like that either.

I suppose they think the posters should be aimed at men to tell them not to go molesting any women?

Ireland has a lot of missing women, and many adult women feature in the assault statistics, not sure why aimed at teenagers in particular. Model in poster looks about my age as far as I can tell. Teenagers seem to go around in bigger groups too.

neonsofa · 13-03-2017 10:35PM

I saw that tweet and thought "Oh that is so creepy, why do they have a picture of this creepy dark sinister looking fella just watching her" then I realised it was someone taking a photo of the bus stop and the lighting was different as it wasn't actually part of the poster...feel like a dope now

Widdershins · 13-03-2017 10:37PM

neonsofa wrote: »

I saw that tweet and thought "Oh that is so creepy, why do they have a picture of this creepy dark sinister looking fella just watching her" then I realised it was someone taking a photo of the bus stop and the lighting was different as it wasn't actually part of the poster...feel like a dope now

So did I

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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