Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Former Former · 07-03-2017 03:51PM

swiwi_ wrote: »

We're not Arabs

Sook.

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Sangre · 07-03-2017 03:53PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

We have very good forwards (I'd have 3 starting and one on the bench). But there are better forwards for what I think is needed to beat NZ. If SOB isn't fit, I'd have Stander in at 8, but Stander otherwise doesn't make it ahead of Itoje at 6. That one isn't even close. The reason I prefer POM as a sub is both for the strategy to attack their lineout and for the dawg he brings.

Best and Hartley is a marginal call, but I'd give the nod to Hartley because I trust his darts in attacking lineouts, and his connection with Launchbury and Itoje.

Itoje has been pretty subdued at 6 so far.

sydthebeat · 07-03-2017 04:06PM

Sangre wrote: »

Itoje has been pretty subdued at 6 so far.

hes not there for flashy moments.
in the tight i think hes been extremely effective and, along with launchbury, has been the best of the english performers.

CMOTDibbler · 07-03-2017 04:36PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

hes not there for flashy moments.
in the tight i think hes been extremely effective and, along with launchbury, has been the best of the english performers.

He's still getting his trademark turnovers. If he does nothing else but the basics, that will still have him in the 'formidable' column.

irishman86 · 07-03-2017 06:11PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think in any area where the ABs are "get-at-able" is in midfield.
While Henshaw is also a fav of mine here, he needs to really show in the next Two games he has the attacking ability to both bash and to lock pick.
The kiwis will have a new partnership in there, and at this moment we dont really know what form SBW will be bringing, so it could easily be Crotty and Lienert Brown.

Id like to see someone with more threat at 13 than Payne.
Problem is no one really is putting their hand up. Joseph missing the italy game didnt help him and again, he has two games to shine.
I think Daly at 13 is a possibility currently.
I also think that Ringrose is a real possibility of a call up, and who knows what might happen when in camp.
J Davies has been pretty poor defensively against Scotland and England, a bit better in attack, and he has the "known known" factor.
Jones in scotland, while good, hasnt exactly been a stand out, and has been more of a facilitator for their back 3 (which is a tactic that is obviously working for them).

so my predictor for the 13 shirt is that if Joseph has 2 good remaining games, and a decent run into the premiership end, he gets it

Payne is out of the picture if he only has the England game and no european games to feature in.

Daly could have a great end of season at 13 at wasps (hopefully not!) but if he does hes firmly in the picture for 13.

Alternatively, Ringrose has a min 3 chances to stake a claim.

Wow really dont see Ringrose travelling. It would be great for him, but I havent seen anything to suggest it. Surely hed be behind the Welsh bashers and England lads never mind the fact that Schmit sees him behind Henshaw and Payne

sydthebeat · 07-03-2017 06:55PM

irishman86 wrote: »

Wow really dont see Ringrose travelling. It would be great for him, but I havent seen anything to suggest it. Surely hed be behind the Welsh bashers and England lads never mind the fact that Schmit sees him behind Henshaw and Payne

we'll see....

im including him because none of the other options at outside centre have put in anything like youd call a demanding performance. in fact you could argue he has been the most consistent, even with 12 on his back.

Dog Botherer · 07-03-2017 06:58PM

Henshaw has to start, at 12 or 13 he's the best centre in Britain or Ireland. Ringrose has every chance of travelling, every single competitor in the 13 jersey is underperforming, and he can cover 11-14. All it'll take is one wonder try before the end of the season and I reckon he travels.

Strauss is a good player, but he's an 8, and Heaslip, Stander, Vunipola, Faletau, and possibly even Moriarty are better than him. I don't think he'd even rank in the top 20 flanker options, blind or openside. Can't see him travelling, bar a bizarre injury crisis.

bilston · 07-03-2017 08:22PM

Leslie91 wrote: »

This is the Lions test team for me (green tinted glasses and all);

15 Hogg
14 Seymour
13 Henshaw
12 Farrell
11 Daly

10 Sexton
9 Murray

1 McGrath
2 Best
3 Furlong
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Stander
7 Strauss
8 Vunipola

Liam Williams for Eliot Daly and any one of O'Brien, Warburton, Tipuric, Watson, Robshaw or Haskell for Strauss and you are pretty much there, although I have a feeling PR might actually be right with their selection of Jamie George. Realistically the only reason he isn't already starting for England is because he has the current captain ahead of him.

Buer · 07-03-2017 09:35PM

man86 wrote: »

Wow really dont see Ringrose travelling. It would be great for him, but I havent seen anything to suggest it. Surely hed be behind the Welsh bashers and England lads never mind the fact that Schmit sees him behind Henshaw and Payne

At the moment, 13 is a completely open contest. None of the players there have really put their hands up consistently. Davies will go purely because he has proven ability and has history with Gatland. He's the only guy playing 13 that I would confidently say is on the plane.

Jonathan Joseph is probably next most likely as he has been consistently in a team that has been delivering although his performances have not been particularly eye catching in recent times culminating in him being omitted for the Italy game and the South Africa game in the autumn. He also has a problem in so far as he plays 13 and nowhere else. In a tight tour that is going to put massive demands on resources, flexibility would be a big boost.

I'd say that after Davies, it's completely open. If Ringrose continues to go well in the 6N, he has as good a chance as anyone. I think Payne was almost certainly going to travel but if he doesn't play in the 6N, he's at a big disadvantage. If the captain was Irish, I'd imagine they'd have a strong word with Gatland for Payne but I don't see an Irish man getting the job.

I can see Gatland looking to use guys who haven't played 13 this season in that role though such as Henshaw or Elliott Daly who I reckon will go due to his ability to play 11-15.

thebaz · 07-03-2017 09:44PM

was the '97 second test - the greatest Lions game ever ??

Bridge93 · 07-03-2017 09:46PM

thebaz wrote: »

was the '97 second test - the greatest Lions game ever ??

Never properly saw it myself just clips.But it would have to be a pretty good game to beat the second test in 2009

penybont exile · 07-03-2017 10:59PM

thebaz wrote: »

was the '97 second test - the greatest Lions game ever ??

I was there and the atmosphere was pretty special ....... saying that the first test was a better spectacle.

Obviously the series was on the line in Durban ..... hence the most amazing, tense, nail biting atmosphere I have ever experienced ..... and I've been to a few big games over the last 40 years.

What you have to also remember was that the Lions were massive underdogs before that first test.

thebaz · 07-03-2017 11:57PM

penybont exile wrote: »

I was there and the atmosphere was pretty special ....... saying that the first test was a better spectacle.

Obviously the series was on the line in Durban ..... hence the most amazing, tense, nail biting atmosphere I have ever experienced ..... and I've been to a few big games over the last 40 years.

What you have to also remember was that the Lions were massive underdogs before that first test.

yeah agree - such characters - Wood, Gibbs, Johnson, Dellaliglo, Rodber, Guscott - and brilliant management - that living with lions is probably best rugby doc I know - I think average players would become great just listening to Wood, Telfer and McGeechan.

great interview with Vickery and his comeback after being destroyed by the beast in '09 - what makes sport special

penybont exile · 08-03-2017 12:18AM

thebaz wrote: »

yeah agree - such characters - Wood, Gibbs, Johnson, Dellaliglo, Rodber, Guscott - and brilliant management - that living with lions is probably best rugby doc I know - I think average players would become great just listening to Wood, Telfer and McGeechan.

great interview with Vickery and his comeback after being destroyed by the beast in '09 - what makes sport special

It was the last tour before it started to get very commercial .....

I remember we put in our request for tickets via our rugby club and got back everything we asked for. The tickets for the three test matches were £17 each.

It was so cheap too .... 3 rand for a 'green beer', 2 rand for a 'brown beer' ..... that down in the 'pricey bars' on the waterfront ..... [@ 13 rand to £1 sterling fx rate]

Four week trip of a lifetime [living it up a level we could never afford at home] ..... second only to my honeymoon ...... that's the tale I tell my missus anyway!

AbusesToilets · 08-03-2017 01:41AM

With the amount of injuries that accompany Lions tours, Ringrose is highly likely to end up out there sooner or later. Irish players continuing in knock out competition post 6N will have an advantage over those from Wales etc. Shame that Marshall and Olding weren't consistently starting this year, would have been in with a great chance to tour imo.

English Lurker · 08-03-2017 03:10AM

Buer wrote: »

It looks like a team that was selected before the 6N even started. And that's not even thinking with my Irish hat on.

The likes of Faletau, Vunipola x 2 and Jamie George are yet to start a game. Faletau hasn't started for Wales all season, actually. George North has been poison. Ben Youngs is far from top form either. Liam Williams is the clear form winger and isn't in the 23.

A very peculiar selection.

Does it matter whether a top international is fit and firing on all cylinders 3 months before the tour? Everybody knows what the Vunipolas and Faletau are capable of, either the selector likes it or they don't.

Unless the guy picking it said they were picking it based on form this year/to play tomorrow, don't see anything peculiar about picking guys everyone's expecting to be available come the actual tests.

Buer wrote: »

Jonathan Joseph is probably next most likely as he has been consistently in a team that has been delivering although his performances have not been particularly eye catching in recent times culminating in him being omitted for the Italy game and the South Africa game in the autumn. He also has a problem in so far as he plays 13 and nowhere else. In a tight tour that is going to put massive demands on resources, flexibility would be a big boost.

Joseph has played wing at international level. He was omitted for SA because fitness had prevented him from fully training in the lead up - not form - and unless he doesn't play the next game, it has to be assumed his omission vs Italy was more Jones thinking he could experiment with impunity.

If we're going to last Autumn to assess form, I'd have to point out he was joint top try scorer in the serious games - indeed, he was England's leading try scorer for the last calender year.

I'd be lying if I said I thought he was in tip-top form or a certainty to make the tour, but you're seriously overegging the cake here.

Incidentally, I think people should be considering Te'o as a serious touring possibility. Gatland loves a big physical centre and Te'o is possibly the prime example of the breed available to him, Te'o or Henshaw.

Scythica · 08-03-2017 08:13AM

As an aside to Lurkers point.(and slightly off topic)

I find it amazing that over here (in england) there hasnt been a big hoohah about Teo playing. Especially after the Burgess fiasco. Most people i know here know nothing about him.

He definitely went about it the right way. Would be interesting to see what would have happened if he declared for Ireland.

.ak · 08-03-2017 09:05AM

Scythica wrote: »

As an aside to Lurkers point.(and slightly off topic)

I find it amazing that over here (in england) there hasnt been a big hoohah about Teo playing. Especially after the Burgess fiasco. Most people i know here know nothing about him.

He definitely went about it the right way. Would be interesting to see what would have happened if he declared for Ireland.

I don't think he would've been the right age profile but I would've welcomed it. Vastly underrated imo but for a lad switching codes at his age he's done alright....

Buer · 08-03-2017 09:11AM

thebaz wrote: »

yeah agree - such characters - Wood, Gibbs, Johnson, Dellaliglo, Rodber, Guscott - and brilliant management - that living with lions is probably best rugby doc I know - I think average players would become great just listening to Wood, Telfer and McGeechan.

I love Bentley's interview after the 2nd test. They were all going crazy, celebrating, hugging one another and Bentley said all he could think was "Why....WHY DID IT HAVE TO BE GUSCOTT?!"

Buer · 08-03-2017 09:25AM

Joseph has played wing at international level. He was omitted for SA because fitness had prevented him from fully training in the lead up - not form - and unless he doesn't play the next game, it has to be assumed his omission vs Italy was more Jones thinking he could experiment with impunity.

If we're going to last Autumn to assess form, I'd have to point out he was joint top try scorer in the serious games - indeed, he was England's leading try scorer for the last calender year.

I'd be lying if I said I thought he was in tip-top form or a certainty to make the tour, but you're seriously overegging the cake here.

Incidentally, I think people should be considering Te'o as a serious touring possibility. Gatland loves a big physical centre and Te'o is possibly the prime example of the breed available to him, Te'o or Henshaw.

I don't think I'm overegging anything. I said he's probably the next most likely candidate to go after Davies as a 13 but his form hasn't been great and he isn't versatile which reduces his chances. I don't think there's anything there to disagree with, really?

Jospeh has been pretty mundane this 6N. He wasn't spectacular in the autumn either, regardless of tries scored, for me. I know fitness was an issue back last year but in conjunction with being left out of the match day squad entirely for Italy, he appears to be someone that Jones sees as expendable. Jones has now had a look at two other guys for the 13 jersey in the past 4 test matches.

Not sure when he started on the wing at test level? Did he come on there against South Africa? Quick look at his stats page on ESPN and he has never been named to start a test at anywhere but centre.

I'd agree on Te'o. Massive dark horse for the Lions. He's as close to Tuilagi as there is now given his power and ability to play 12 and 13. I think he has a great chance of going.

If I had to throw out a guess right now for the midfield selections I'd say:

Henshaw
Farrell (10/12)
Davies
Te'o
Daly

I think that offers the flexibility and power that Gatland will seek in his midfield options. I reckon it would put Henshaw, Davies and Farrell in a direct shoot out for test spots with a massive amount depending on Sexton's fitness.

sting60 · 08-03-2017 09:25AM

I see all this sweet talk about Ringrose for the Lions,I don't get it whatsoever.Imo he is extremely lucky to be playing for Ireland as his tackling is woefully inadequate and big centres will carve him up big time.

Former Former · 08-03-2017 09:28AM

Scythica wrote: »

As an aside to Lurkers point.(and slightly off topic)

I find it amazing that over here (in england) there hasnt been a big hoohah about Teo playing. Especially after the Burgess fiasco. Most people i know here know nothing about him.

He definitely went about it the right way. Would be interesting to see what would have happened if he declared for Ireland.

Apparently he's been dropped again for Joseph so his Lions chance is probably gone, he'd certainly do a job though.

He was the anti-Burgess in how a league conversion should happen (not that Burgess was to blame), but he wasn't terribly popular among a lot of Leinster fans for various reasons.

I'd have loved to have seen him stick around but he'd have been 32 making his Ireland debut so we were never going to be spending huge money on him.

Buer · 08-03-2017 09:30AM

sting60 wrote: »

I see all this sweet talk about Ringrose for the Lions,I don't get it whatsoever.Imo he is extremely lucky to be playing for Ireland as his tackling is woefully inadequate and big centres will carve him up big time.

Like Remi Lamerat who ended up being hauled off after 59 minutes?

I don't think Ringrose will get named in the squad but he's got an outside chance.

CMOTDibbler · 08-03-2017 09:34AM

sting60 wrote: »

I see all this sweet talk about Ringrose for the Lions,I don't get it whatsoever.Imo he is extremely lucky to be playing for Ireland as his tackling is woefully inadequate and big centres will carve him up big time.

His tackling is patchy at times, but it's a consequence of his linespeed. When you rush up like that, you have to be very quick, so a step by the ball carrier can defeat you.

I wouldn't like to see him abandon that though. Most times it's accurate and more often than not, he forces a turnover and definitely catches them behind the gain line. It's fine if he's covered, which he normally is and he's been at least able to get a hand in and slow the attacker even if he misses the decisive tackle.

By all accounts, he'd be his own biggest critic for those misses.

CMOTDibbler · 08-03-2017 09:39AM

Buer wrote: »

I don't think Ringrose will get named in the squad but he's got an outside chance.

Eh? The chances of his being named are quite high after Payne had to sit out training due to a bruised leg. Even if Payne started, he'd have a strong likelihood of getting the 23 shirt due to his ability to cover both wings and both centre positions.

Edit: Second time I've done that in the last two days. Clearly need more sleep

Erik Shin · 08-03-2017 09:42AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Eh? The chances of his being named are quite high after Payne had to sit out training due to a bruised leg. Even if Payne started, he'd have a strong likelihood of getting the 23 shirt due to his ability to cover both wings and both centre positions.

I think you should have turned right at Albuquerque!

CMOTDibbler · 08-03-2017 09:44AM

Erik Shin wrote: »

I think you should have turned right at Albuquerque!

D'Oh!

.ak · 08-03-2017 11:32PM

Buer wrote: »

Like Remi Lamerat who ended up being hauled off after 59 minutes?

I don't think Ringrose will get named in the squad but he's got an outside chance.

Nift · 09-03-2017 03:23PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

Was having a good think about this today. The opening caveat here is that this obviously won't happen, but it's how I would like to see us go for it.

The All Blacks can be beaten, but it will take a combination of what Australia did in the RWC final, mixed with what Ireland did in Chicago. I.e., a balance of a aggressive disruption of their ball, mixed with ruthless, try-oriented decision-making with our ball. Torment them in the rucks, scrum them out the door and kick for the corner on every penalty. New Zealand will score 3 tires minimum in every game, so we don't win by kicking penalties. We also don't win this in the backs (at least not primarily). Their defense is too fast, too strong and too organised. For that reason, I would also shy away from picking any forwards purely for their ball-carrying, unless they offer something in the set-piece and breakdown. Our best bet is to gain ground with aggressive rucking and fast delivery to one-out runners, and with precision kicking and pressure.

So I'll start off with the pack, and I think the following offers the best balance of scrummaging, lineout, power and bastardry:

1 McGrath
2 Hartley
3 Furlong
4 Launchbury
5 Gray
6 Itoje
7 Strauss
8 SOB

Halfbacks are an automatic selection, if fit:

9 Murray
10 Sexton

We'll then need Henshaw for his defense but also for his physical presence in attack.

Then the back three will basically need to be selected for speed and distribution. Forget the big men, just get the ball to the space as quick as possible in the rare moments that gaps open up:

11 Daly
14 Williams
15 Hogg

The final call is outside centre, and I think if Payne is fit, he gets the nod for his defense and distribution.

On the bench, I've tried to keep much of the same emphasis on set piece, precision and overal personal unpleasantness:

16 Best
17 Marler
18 Lee
19 Lawes
20 POM
21 Webb
22 Farell
23 Nowell

Lols...Payne!! Not a chance. 1) He hasn't played any 6 Nations 2) only person who thinks he's an outside centre is you and Joe

Dog Botherer · 09-03-2017 03:36PM

Nift wrote: »

Lols...Payne!! Not a chance. 1) He hasn't played any 6 Nations 2) only person who thinks he's an outside centre is you and Joe

He is a centre though. A Six Nations winning, All Blacks beating centre.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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