Eir rural FTTH thread

rob808 · 05-11-2016 12:59AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Was that not 'open eir' which would imply the fibre will be in place in that time period?

I reckon that is not unmanageable.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Probably a commercially 'safe' strategy ....... if they roll out fibre through 50 towns, and do not get a NBP contract, then they will at least be able to recoup a decent percentage of their outlay by being able to compete in (what I will call) non-rural areas.

I would not eliminate them from an NBP contract yet.
They can certainly string the fibre out quite quickly ....... how they will manage the connections afterwards though, I have no idea.

Eir and siro are best fit for NBP because of the networks they own and Enet mainly would use open eir poles if they win a contract and try use ESB poles since they haven't really got a network other than the mans.

oscarBravo · 06-11-2016 01:36AM

damienirel wrote: »

Siro didn't grasp the the nettle and aim for rural areas - they missed the point of the NBP...

The point of the NBP is to subsidise rural areas that are not commercially viable. It seems a bit strange to criticise a bidder for the NBP for not rolling out a commercial service in the areas that the NBP is designed to cover.

It seems particularly strange to criticise them more strongly than enet. At least they're building FTTH networks - enet are better, how?

damienirel · 06-11-2016 07:46PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

The point of the NBP is to subsidise rural areas that are not commercially viable. It seems a bit strange to criticise a bidder for the NBP for not rolling out a commercial service in the areas that the NBP is designed to cover.

It seems particularly strange to criticise them more strongly than enet. At least they're building FTTH networks - enet are better, how?

The nbp is not covering all of rural ireland - eir already has plans to cover the commercially viable parts of rural Ireland which would mean the infrastructure for the bulk of the nbp is already in place. I never mentioned enet.

Rolling out in towns and cities that are already have services seems daft, and doesn't do much of the groundwork for what they would have to do if they did win it. Hence I think they are down as bidders but already have resigned themselves to the fact they won't win it.

ED E · 06-11-2016 09:35PM

damienirel wrote: »

The nbp is not covering all of rural ireland - eir already has plans to cover the commercially viable parts of rural Ireland

Those zones are commercially viable for OpenEir ONLY. They have proximity and save on dismantling POTS.

murphaph · 06-11-2016 10:52PM

ED E wrote: »

Those zones are commercially viable for OpenEir ONLY. They have proximity and save on dismantling POTS.

And I strongly suspect even then it's only because of the NBP and all that taxpayers money that Eir is rolling out preemptively in these areas. I doubt they are commercially viable in their own right.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 06-11-2016 10:56PM

murphaph wrote: »

And I strongly suspect even then it's only because of the NBP and all that taxpayers money that Eir is rolling out preemptively in these areas. I doubt they are commercially viable in their own right.

No doubt that is the case. It also may be the reason why the first 100K are not coming in on time. More subsidies for eir's balance sheet if they delay and win the NBP.

rob808 · 06-11-2016 11:57PM

murphaph wrote: »

And I strongly suspect even then it's only because of the NBP and all that taxpayers money that Eir is rolling out preemptively in these areas. I doubt they are commercially viable in their own right.

who cares there given 300,000 FTTH and saving the tax payer money making NBP cheaper.The NBP going to be using FTTH as the technology of choice plus if siro never came to be Eir wouldn't be so interest in doing FTTH and milk vdsl longer like BT in uk.

Gonzo · 07-11-2016 12:00AM

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

No doubt that is the case. It also may be the reason why the first 100K are not coming in on time. More subsidies for eir's balance sheet if they delay and win the NBP.

I reckon Eir have the best intentions to get the 100k finished as quickly as possible, but they started the serious work at least 3 months too late to meet the original March 2017 target due to finishing off the FTTC rollout, also they don't have enough teams on the project. We will only have a handful of exchanges partly live by the new year with many winter 2016 dates slipping into the new year and perhaps spring.

However, they announced more jobs back at the ploughing and I think these are meant to start early 2017 so hopefully they will make more serious progress from January. According to their social media they are currently training 800+ maintenance teams to work on the rural rollout so hopefully most of us will see a large scale increase in development from January.

rob808 · 07-11-2016 12:13AM

Gonzo wrote: »

I reckon Eir have the best intentions to get the 100k finished as quickly as possible, but they started the serious work at least 3 months too late to meet the original March 2017 target due to finishing off the FTTC rollout, also they don't have enough teams on the project. We will only have a handful of exchanges partly live by the new year with many winter 2016 dates slipping into the new year and perhaps spring.

However, they announced more jobs back at the ploughing and I think these are meant to start early 2017 so hopefully they will make more serious progress from January. According to their social media they are currently training 800+ maintenance teams to work on the rural rollout so hopefully most of us will see a large scale increase in development from January.

were still in Autumn so I would say January sound about right you might be lucky and get in November or December.I might get mine February/March/April the sooner the better I can watch YouTube and web surfing but downloading anything big a pain.

damienirel · 07-11-2016 12:26AM

ED E wrote: »

Those zones are commercially viable for OpenEir ONLY. They have proximity and save on dismantling POTS.

Yes but could have been commercially viable for Siro too, they have access to even more land than open eirs.

ED E · 07-11-2016 12:32AM

damienirel wrote: »

Yes but could have been commercially viable for Siro too, they have access to even more land than open eirs.

Its not about access to land, and the wayleave is only for the mains grid. Expansion for SIRO is significantly more expensive.

damienirel · 07-11-2016 12:34AM

ED E wrote: »

Its not about access to land, and the wayleave is only for the mains grid. Expansion for SIRO is significantly more expensive.

I wasn't aware that it was only mains they were allowed to run - were they not installing the fibre on poles that already carried electricity? - don't esb own most of the backbone??

oscarBravo · 07-11-2016 12:39AM

damienirel wrote: »

I never mentioned enet.

You did:

damienirel wrote: »

Siro are full of more sh1te than Eir and Enet put together.

damienirel wrote: »

Rolling out in towns and cities that are already have services seems daft...

It seems daft to you, because your criteria are different from theirs. You think they should be providing broadband to rural areas. They think they should be making money.

If you can convince their shareholders that losing money is a good idea, go for it.

...and doesn't do much of the groundwork for what they would have to do if they did win it.

Of course it does. The processes and technologies are exactly the same in every respect: use existing electricity infrastructure to bring fibre to premises. They're doing a commercial rollout in places where the density means that the cost per passed house is commercially feasible. The only difference in rural areas is that the costs are higher, so they'd need gap funding to make it commercially viable.

Hence I think they are down as bidders but already have resigned themselves to the fact they won't win it.

Believe me: they most certainly have not.

ED E · 07-11-2016 12:40AM

damienirel wrote: »

I wasn't aware that it was only mains they were allowed to run - don't esb own most of the backbone??

SIRO arent using ESB telecom. Its falling back to Vodafone/buying from others. And Eir have 10,000 "reach nodes" in the form of VDSL cabs while ESBs reach is only as far as the 10kV stations at best without lots more work.

oscarBravo · 07-11-2016 12:42AM

ED E wrote: »

...the wayleave is only for the mains grid.

That was fixed by s4.1 of the 2014 ESB Act.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 07-11-2016 12:44AM

Gonzo wrote: »

I reckon Eir have the best intentions to get the 100k finished as quickly as possible, but they started the serious work at least 3 months too late to meet the original March 2017 target due to finishing off the FTTC rollout, also they don't have enough teams on the project. We will only have a handful of exchanges partly live by the new year with many winter 2016 dates slipping into the new year and perhaps spring.

However, they announced more jobs back at the ploughing and I think these are meant to start early 2017 so hopefully they will make more serious progress from January. According to their social media they are currently training 800+ maintenance teams to work on the rural rollout so hopefully most of us will see a large scale increase in development from January.

As of today they have 1.12% of the 100K premises passed eight months into a twelve month rollout. I don't believe they could have gotten it so spectacularly wrong by accident. The FTTC project was well mature at this stage. Surely they knew what manpower was available where when making the 100K announcement. It was made when it was believed that the NBP contract(s) were to be awarded mid 2017. There has since been at least one if not two NBP delays and coincidentally or not Openeir's rollout has also been delayed.

Perhaps I am overly cynical but I believe that all the operators would want to spend as little as possible of their own money on the NBP so the more premises included in the intervention area the better for their bottom line.

damienirel · 07-11-2016 12:47AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

You did:
It seems daft to you, because your criteria are different from theirs. You think they should be providing broadband to rural areas. They think they should be making money.

If you can convince their shareholders that losing money is a good idea, go for it. Of course it does. The processes and technologies are exactly the same in every respect: use existing electricity infrastructure to bring fibre to premises. They're doing a commercial rollout in places where the density means that the cost per passed house is commercially feasible. The only difference in rural areas is that the costs are higher, so they'd need gap funding to make it commercially viable. Believe me: they most certainly have not.

With all of what you replied with considered you missed my original point - almost all of those commercially viable densely populated areas have a choice of bb providers with fttc and cable. It may not be ftth but it still is fast enough for the average customer. Selling ftth where there is 0 competition would seem a better option long term for investors?

damienirel · 07-11-2016 12:54AM

ED E wrote: »

SIRO arent using ESB telecom. Its falling back to Vodafone/buying from others. And Eir have 10,000 "reach nodes" in the form of VDSL cabs while ESBs reach is only as far as the 10kV stations at best without lots more work.

Yes it makes sense when you mention 10kV stations - but how would they rollout to nbp areas if they won the bid without spending a lot of dosh?

damienirel · 07-11-2016 01:01AM

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

As of today they have 1.12% of the 100K premises passed eight months into a twelve month rollout. I don't believe they could have gotten it so spectacularly wrong by accident. The FTTC project was well mature at this stage. Surely they knew what manpower was available where when making the 100K announcement. It was made when it was believed that the NBP contract(s) were to be awarded mid 2017. There has since been at least one if not two NBP delays and coincidentally or not Openeir's rollout has also been delayed.

Perhaps I am overly cynical but I believe that all the operators would want to spend as little as possible of their own money on the NBP so the more premises included in the intervention area the better for their bottom line.

Agree totally, they are playing the game very wisely.

Johnboy1951 · 07-11-2016 01:13AM

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

As of today they have 1.12% of the 100K premises passed eight months into a twelve month rollout. I don't believe they could have gotten it so spectacularly wrong by accident. The FTTC project was well mature at this stage. Surely they knew what manpower was available where when making the 100K announcement. It was made when it was believed that the NBP contract(s) were to be awarded mid 2017. There has since been at least one if not two NBP delays and coincidentally or not Openeir's rollout has also been delayed.

Perhaps I am overly cynical but I believe that all the operators would want to spend as little as possible of their own money on the NBP so the more premises included in the intervention area the better for their bottom line.

It will be interesting to see how they progress.
Bear in mind that premises passed is not going to be a linear number with time.
Preparation work will take more time, in many cases, than the actual laying of the fibre, so when the prep work is completed, the fibre should appear quite quickly.
That is my expectation ..... we will have to wait and see of course.

It does seem that they will not meet their declared first target with the 100K premises, but I would not be at all surprised if they did the 300K by the new target date.

Gonzo · 07-11-2016 01:58AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how they progress.

It does seem that they will not meet their declared first target with the 100K premises, but I would not be at all surprised if they did the 300K by the new target date.

with just slightly over 1% of the initial 100k premises wired up 8 months into a 12 months target time, it's no surprise that most of us are extremely dissapointed and frustrated with this progress whatever the reason for this delay.

My initial burst of excitement back in first week of April has certainly nosedived since. What has surprised me the most is despite all this, they recently announced the completion of all 300k premises before the end of 2018, 2 years sooner than the original completion date by end of 2020.

That leaves just approx 24 months left to wire up another 298,500 premises. That averages at 12,437 premises wired up per month from January. Even with increased manpower can they really work this fast? Very impressive if they can.

When I say wired up I mean premises lines wired, not actual connections as those have to be ordered by the customer.

digiman · 07-11-2016 09:14AM

You have to give Eir social media team huge credit here, they have stopped their 66 town FTTH rollout, almost a year behind on their March 100k rural FTTH rollout and people here still think they are without a shadow of doubt the best people to build a rural broadband network. The only thing they have successfully done to date is rollout a fibre to the press release!! FTTPR

I think the best outcome is a region each for Eir and Siro. One winner for the whole thing would be bad for the country I think if either was to get it all. You need to be able to play both of each other and if one is failing you have another company who is already in a rural rollout phase and could potentially take over.

It seems that the department decision to ignore all these numbers from Eir to date was a really good move.

07-11-2016 09:30AM

damienirel wrote: »

Selling ftth where there is 0 competition would seem a better option long term for investors?

There's no profit to be made in those areas. The cost of leasing out land for telephone polls and pylons, along with maintenance and manpower, outweighs the income generated by customers - hence the reason why there's no competition there.

damienirel · 07-11-2016 09:40AM

511 wrote: »

There's no profit to be made in those areas. The cost of leasing out land for telephone polls and pylons, along with maintenance and manpower, outweighs the income generated by customers - hence the reason why there's no competition there.

So Open Eir are crazy then?!

long_b · 07-11-2016 09:45AM

There's another thread for NBP discussion folks - this one's for one's for blue line progtess

Johnboy1951 · 07-11-2016 09:55AM

Gonzo wrote: »

When I say wired up I mean premises lines wired, not actual connections as those have to be ordered by the customer.

I am unsure what you mean here ........ the fibre will not be taken into a house/building unless a connection is requested, as I understand it.

Gonzo · 07-11-2016 10:46AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I am unsure what you mean here ........ the fibre will not be taken into a house/building unless a connection is requested, as I understand it.

yep that's it. When open eir mention lines passed they mean the line is capable of receiving FTTH, the internet connection inside the premises will still be copper based until the customer then orders FTTH. But having your line wired up outside means your good to go and order FTTH, and that's what's most important to most people.

Even tho some work has happened in my area, it's not ready and it's not wired up so I can't do anything untill my line is live. There is no guarantee that my line will go live when the exchange does unless the work is fully finished on my road.

Johnboy1951 · 07-11-2016 10:54AM

Gonzo wrote: »

yep that's it. When open eir mention lines passed they mean the line is capable of receiving FTTH, the internet connection inside the premises will still be copper based until the customer then orders FTTH. But having your line wired up outside means your good to go and order FTTH, and that's what's most important to most people.

Even tho some work has happened in my area, it's not ready and it's not wired up so I can't do anything untill my line is live. There is no guarantee that my line will go live when the exchange does unless the work is fully finished on my road.

Again we seem to be at cross purposes .......... I have a copper line on which I get "broadband" and phone services.
This line will not be connected to, or used, WHEN/IF I get a FTTH connection into my home.

The fibre will be a completely separate connection.

I will receive that connection ONLY if I order it, AFTER I have been 'passed' by the fibre roll out.

Gonzo · 07-11-2016 10:55AM

digiman wrote: »

You have to give Eir social media team huge credit here, they have stopped their 66 town FTTH rollout, almost a year behind on their March 100k rural FTTH rollout and people here still think they are without a shadow of doubt the best people to build a rural broadband network. The only thing they have successfully done to date is rollout a fibre to the press release!! FTTPR

I think the best outcome is a region each for Eir and Siro. One winner for the whole thing would be bad for the country I think if either was to get it all. You need to be able to play both of each other and if one is failing you have another company who is already in a rural rollout phase and could potentially take over.

It seems that the department decision to ignore all these numbers from Eir to date was a really good move.

I would agree with much of this however people in rural Ireland really don't have much choice. Virgin Media are never gonna do rural, Siro probably will never do rural unless they win part of the NBP, wireless operators and their technology is not suitable. Eir are the only ones who are capable right now of rolling FTTH to the countryside with some level of experience. Siro are capable as well, it's just they have no experience in doing rural and may be initially slower.

There is no doubt tho the delay in the start/progress of the 100k lines has been very dissapointing. The 66 towns is still happening but that seems to have gotten swallowed up with the rural rollout. OpenEir are activating FTTH in Bray a week from now as part of the 66 towns.

Gonzo · 07-11-2016 11:02AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Again we seem to be at cross purposes .......... I have a copper line on which I get "broadband" and phone services.
This line will not be connected to, or used, WHEN/IF I get a FTTH connection into my home.

The fibre will be a completely separate connection.

I will receive that connection ONLY if I order it, AFTER I have been 'passed' by the fibre roll out.

Im fairly sure that your copper line would be used, they would run fiber from the pole outside your gate to a room in your house. You have to order FTTH using your current phone/line number from your house which has been passed by Eir as capable of receiving FTTH services. If you order an FTTH package, you would have both FTTH and the copper line for your phone but if you order FTTH broadband only they would propably disconnect your copper and just leave you with the fiber.

Eir rural FTTH thread

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