Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Widdershins · 06-11-2016 09:16PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

The same people in here claiming there is a rape culture in the country and making up bullsh1t stories are in the multiculturalism thread trying to argue that sure only a proportion of Muslim immigrants are rapists so we're all racist if we don't want to let in thousands of them.
You don't know what you're talking about and you don't know what you want except to play victim and feel like some fighter for truth and justice. Delusional.

Kind of contradictory isn't it

cursai · 06-11-2016 09:18PM

Rape culture.

Is it a fad?

silverharp · 06-11-2016 09:22PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It mixes the gene pool and provides diversity, increasing the chances of reproductive success. Since always.

so why are the most sexually liberal countries like Germany not making babies? "reproductive success" is going south

Butters1979 · 06-11-2016 09:23PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It mixes the gene pool and provides diversity, increasing the chances of reproductive success. Since always.

Unless you use a condom. Or the morning after pill. Or anal.

Fr_Dougal · 06-11-2016 09:23PM

infogiver wrote: »

Point out to me where promiscuity has ever been a positive trait

Point out where I said it was. You fail at straw man.

osmiumartist · 06-11-2016 09:24PM

silverharp wrote: »

so why are the most sexually liberal countries like Germany not making babies? "reproductive success" is going south

They're doing pretty well for themselves though aren't they?
Places with the most repressive sex laws tend to be poor ass dumps.

silverharp · 06-11-2016 09:30PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

They're doing pretty well for themselves though aren't they?
Places with the most repressive sex laws tend to be poor ass dumps.

it works for a generation or 2, but you end up with an inverted pyramid by age. taxes going up to pay for old people. and given what Merkel is doing they might end up with a rape culture :pac:

Butters1979 · 06-11-2016 09:38PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

They're doing pretty well for themselves though aren't they?
Places with the most repressive sex laws tend to be poor ass dumps.

Except for all the rapes and sexual assaults.

osmiumartist · 06-11-2016 09:42PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Except for all the rapes and sexual assaults.

But has that anything to do with German culture?

CaptainInsano · 06-11-2016 09:44PM

Joe.ie seem to have given up on posting pictures of women in bikinis and become champions for women's rights over night. Whatever is trendy I suppose .

ash23 · 06-11-2016 09:54PM

If four out of ten women are experiencing sexual assault then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If only a fraction of those women report it then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If a tiny fraction of the reported cases go to court, again, how can we ignore the problem?
And of the tiny % that do get to court and are convicted then get a lenient sentence, isn't that also a problem?

I've been sexually assaulted although I didn't realise it at the time. I blamed myself for being in a situation. I'd slept with him before so who'd believe me? He didn't rape me but he did assault me while I was asleep.

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

"Normal" men assault women and don't even realise they're doing it sometimes. How can they when sometimes the women themselves struggle to label it assault.

I was 20. I know I was upset when it happened and shaken. I went home and cried but I blamed myself for not going home, for kissing him, for getting drunk.
I could've gone to the guards but really, why bother? He wasn't going to be punished. People saw me with him. Kissing him.

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

Is it scary to think that maybe still some men don't know where to draw the line?
Shouldn't we be able to continue having that discussion and drawing clear lines in the sand about consent and what it is and what it means?

Because I don't believe that a tiny fraction of men are responsible for all the sexual assaults and rapes. The figures are just too high.

jameorahiely · 06-11-2016 10:00PM

Where do films like 50 shades of grey fit in to the rape culture?

Specialun · 06-11-2016 10:01PM

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Joe.ie seem to have given up on posting pictures of women in bikinis and become champions for women's rights over night. Whatever is trendy I suppose .

Mcgregor will be on fighting again soon so they can go back sucking him off

ED E · 06-11-2016 10:09PM

ash23 wrote: »

If four out of ten women are experiencing sexual assault then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If only a fraction of those women report it then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If a tiny fraction of the reported cases go to court, again, how can we ignore the problem?
And of the tiny % that do get to court and are convicted then get a lenient sentence, isn't that also a problem?

I've been sexually assaulted although I didn't realise it at the time. I blamed myself for being in a situation. I'd slept with him before so who'd believe me? He didn't rape me but he did assault me while I was asleep.

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

"Normal" men assault women and don't even realise they're doing it sometimes. How can they when sometimes the women themselves struggle to label it assault.

I was 20. I know I was upset when it happened and shaken. I went home and cried but I blamed myself for not going home, for kissing him, for getting drunk.
I could've gone to the guards but really, why bother? He wasn't going to be punished. People saw me with him. Kissing him.

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

Is it scary to think that maybe still some men don't know where to draw the line?
Shouldn't we be able to continue having that discussion and drawing clear lines in the sand about consent and what it is and what it means?

Because I don't believe that a tiny fraction of men are responsible for all the sexual assaults and rapes. The figures are just too high.

I'd normally claim to be very tired of the Feminist turned Feminazi(some, not all) movement thats built up of late but this really is a valid point. The number of "lads" (prepubescent boys at best really) who still think its ok to have a grope or a slap as a woman passes in a pub is crazy.

No, most of them won't turn into rapists, but its part of the spectrum and part of the problem.

Dr Jakub · 06-11-2016 10:13PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Except for all the rapes and sexual assaults.

That's just Merkel's interacial breeding policy.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 10:16PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

How does it land men in prison? Please explain what you think rape culture is?

Her premise is to place more to total emphasis on the word of the accuser, and a restriction to zero credence to the accused. That is a line which will land innocent men in prison, or if not that, the ruining of their reputation. Sh*t sticks and all that.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the game theory matrix concept and how something like this is just fodder for opportunists lumped in with genuine victims. It's a disgraceful line that O'Neill is peddling.

Sweetemotion · 06-11-2016 10:24PM

ash23 wrote: »

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

No he wasn't just a normal guy, he sexually assaulted you. I consider myself a normal guy my brother a normal guy and my father a normal guy and I can't see them doing anything like that.

Should I look at my brother and father as potential rapists just because "they are normal guys"?

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 10:25PM

ash23 wrote: »

If four out of ten women are experiencing sexual assault then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If only a fraction of those women report it then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If a tiny fraction of the reported cases go to court, again, how can we ignore the problem?
And of the tiny % that do get to court and are convicted then get a lenient sentence, isn't that also a problem?

I've been sexually assaulted although I didn't realise it at the time. I blamed myself for being in a situation. I'd slept with him before so who'd believe me? He didn't rape me but he did assault me while I was asleep.

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

"Normal" men assault women and don't even realise they're doing it sometimes. How can they when sometimes the women themselves struggle to label it assault.

I was 20. I know I was upset when it happened and shaken. I went home and cried but I blamed myself for not going home, for kissing him, for getting drunk.
I could've gone to the guards but really, why bother? He wasn't going to be punished. People saw me with him. Kissing him.

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

Is it scary to think that maybe still some men don't know where to draw the line?
Shouldn't we be able to continue having that discussion and drawing clear lines in the sand about consent and what it is and what it means?

Because I don't believe that a tiny fraction of men are responsible for all the sexual assaults and rapes. The figures are just too high.

I think line 1 is the most crucial one. With respect, what is the evidence of that figure, how was it derived at, who undertook the research, is that an independent (unbiased) entity and what was the definition of sexual assault in this research?

Also, how does this compare to the reverse situation, i.e. with men instead of women?

Call Me Jimmy · 06-11-2016 10:29PM

ash23 wrote: »

If four out of ten women are experiencing sexual assault then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If only a fraction of those women report it then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If a tiny fraction of the reported cases go to court, again, how can we ignore the problem?
And of the tiny % that do get to court and are convicted then get a lenient sentence, isn't that also a problem?

I've been sexually assaulted although I didn't realise it at the time. I blamed myself for being in a situation. I'd slept with him before so who'd believe me? He didn't rape me but he did assault me while I was asleep.

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

"Normal" men assault women and don't even realise they're doing it sometimes. How can they when sometimes the women themselves struggle to label it assault.

I was 20. I know I was upset when it happened and shaken. I went home and cried but I blamed myself for not going home, for kissing him, for getting drunk.
I could've gone to the guards but really, why bother? He wasn't going to be punished. People saw me with him. Kissing him.

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

Is it scary to think that maybe still some men don't know where to draw the line?
Shouldn't we be able to continue having that discussion and drawing clear lines in the sand about consent and what it is and what it means?

Because I don't believe that a tiny fraction of men are responsible for all the sexual assaults and rapes. The figures are just too high.

Where are ye gettin that number btw?

ash23 · 06-11-2016 10:31PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

No he wasn't just a normal guy, he sexually assaulted you. I consider myself a normal guy my brother a normal guy and my father a normal and I can't see them doing anything like that.

Should I look at my brother and father as potential rapists just because "they are normal guys"?

I don't look at all men as potential rapists so I certainly don't think everyone should. I have a partner, a brother, a father. I'm not for a second suggesting that every man is a potential rapists but equally we can't dismiss the research showing that such a huge number of women are assaulted and raped.
So there is clearly a fraction of men out there who don't understand consent or don't see what they are doing as serious enough to get into trouble over.
And with it being so difficult to actually prosecute those men then shouldn't society start hammering home the point instead of ignoring it or pretending it isn't a problem?

We talk about drink driving, about insurance fraud or benefit fraud. I see those topics discussed and read about them and I don't take it personally or assume that it means everyone drinks and drives or claims fraudulently etc.
I take it that a sector of society do and as it's not possible to catch them all there's an onus on society to teach and talk and discuss and stand up against it or report it.

I don't understand why the topic is always met with such resistance.

Ulysses Gaze · 06-11-2016 10:32PM

ash23 wrote: »

I've been sexually assaulted although I didn't realise it at the time. I blamed myself for being in a situation. I'd slept with him before so who'd believe me? He didn't rape me but he did assault me while I was asleep.

Now, he was a normal guy. Nice enough. I'd wanted a relationship with him at one point and we'd slept together a few times. Saw him at a party, we had a kiss. I fell asleep in a room and awoke to his fingers inside me and my clothes removed.
So I excused myself to the bathroom, rang a taxi and got out of there. Never saw or heard from him again.

"Normal" men assault women and don't even realise they're doing it sometimes. How can they when sometimes the women themselves struggle to label it assault.

I was 20. I know I was upset when it happened and shaken. I went home and cried but I blamed myself for not going home, for kissing him, for getting drunk.

I could've gone to the guards but really, why bother? He wasn't going to be punished. People saw me with him. Kissing him.

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

I am sorry that this happened to you. But he is not a "normal" guy.

"Normal" men do not assault women in the way you describe.

Sweetemotion · 06-11-2016 10:36PM

ash23 wrote: »

I don't look at all men as potential rapists so I certainly don't think everyone should. I have a partner, a brother, a father. I'm not for a second suggesting that every man is a potential rapists but equally we can't dismiss the research showing that such a huge number of women are assaulted and raped.
So there is clearly a fraction of men out there who don't understand consent or don't see what they are doing as serious enough to get into trouble over.
And with it being so difficult to actually prosecute those men then shouldn't society start hammering home the point instead of ignoring it or pretending it isn't a problem?

We talk about drink driving, about insurance fraud or benefit fraud. I see those topics discussed and read about them and I don't take it personally or assume that it means everyone drinks and drives or claims fraudulently etc.
I take it that a sector of society do and as it's not possible to catch them all there's an onus on society to teach and talk and discuss and stand up against it or report it.

I don't understand why the topic is always met with such resistance.

It was the way you phrased him as "just a normal guy" when that is wrong.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 10:40PM

Figure was on the programme.
It was also mentioned that 20% of people contacting the rape crisis centre were men.

Some links here from a quick Google search. I haven't read them all.

http://www.drcc.ie/get-help-and-information/facts-and-info-about-sexual-violence-and-rape/

In 2001 a major nationwide survey, which interviewed 3120 adults in depth, was undertaken on behalf of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre (The SAVI Report, McGee et al, 2002, The Liffey Press). This research discovered that 13% of Irish women and 5 % of Irish men have experienced rape or attempted rape over their lifetime. One in three women and one in five men have experienced contact sexual abuse as a child or adult, or in some cases both.

Details from SAVI report
http://www.cosc.ie/en/COSC/Pages/WP08000146

Findings:

20 per cent of girls and 16 per cent boys in Ireland experience contact sexual abuse in childhood.
42 per cent of women and 28 per cent of men experienced some form of sexual abuse or assault in their lifetime.
24 per cent of perpetrators of sexual violence against adult women are partners or former partners.
1 per cent of men and 8 per cent of women reported their experience of sexual violence to An Garda Síochána.
47 per cent of those reporting abuse in SAVI had never told anybody.
Alcohol was involved in almost half of the cases of sexual assault that occurred as an adult.
Of those that reported that alcohol was involved, both parties were drinking in 57 per cent of cases concerning abuse of women, and in 63 per cent of cases concerning abuse of men.
Where only one party was drinking, the perpetrator was the one drinking in the majority of cases (84 per cent of female and 70 per cent of male abuse cases).

cloudatlas · 06-11-2016 10:42PM

ligerdub wrote: »

Her premise is to place more to total emphasis on the word of the accuser, and a restriction to zero credence to the accused. That is a line which will land innocent men in prison, or if not that, the ruining of their reputation. Sh*t sticks and all that.

I'm sure we're all familiar with the game theory matrix concept and how something like this is just fodder for opportunists lumped in with genuine victims. It's a disgraceful line that O'Neill is peddling.

She's encouraging women to come forward and speak about their experiences, get help and start the legal process. There is a poster at my local university from the Security services that states if you have been sexually assaulted come forward and report it we will believe you. This is from the security services not from a group of feminists. The legal process will take care of the rest.

Ralf and Florian · 06-11-2016 10:44PM

Programme being repeated now on RTE 2. Barely two minutes in and the American activist she's interviewing says rape culture involves jokes about rape.

Jokes like the one I mentioned in the first post?Which LON seemed to find so amusing.

https://twitter.com/GavinTCorbett/status/794195086498209793

ash23 · 06-11-2016 10:45PM

Why I described him as normal? Because he seemed to be. He had a job, friends and family. He was a sound lad until that incident and I'd known him two years. I never for a second thought I was in any danger or at risk. When I woke up and pushed him off he was confused at my reaction. His reckoning was we slept together before, we were making out, you went to bed.....of course you want this.
He didn't understand that consent needs to be ongoing. I wouldn't think he's the only man that would assume it was a given that we would have sex that night seeing as we usually ended up having sex when we met up on a night out.
If I had gone to the guards I doubt there was one person we knew who would have thought him capable of it and I'm sure the majority would have thought I was over reacting or forgot that I gave consent, was drunk and making out with him so of course he was confused etc.

It's easy to think of a rapist as someone evil but I'd say for a lot of people who find out someone they know or love has been accused of sexual assault, they find it hard to believe that person is capable of it.

Widdershins · 06-11-2016 10:47PM

ash23 wrote: »

Figure was on the programme.
It was also mentioned that 20% of people contacting the rape crisis centre were men.

Some links here from a quick Google search. I haven't read them all.

http://www.drcc.ie/get-help-and-information/facts-and-info-about-sexual-violence-and-rape/

Details from SAVI report
http://www.cosc.ie/en/COSC/Pages/WP08000146

That should be 13% of those surveyed, not 13% of Irish women. It's a bit misleading otherwise.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 10:50PM

Widdershins wrote: »

That should be 13% of those surveyed, not 13% of Irish women. It's a bit misleading otherwise.

The second link, with the SAVI report breaks it down into Irish figures which is where I took the second quote from so it's Irish stats as far as I can tell.

It's 42% of Irish women experience sexual assault or abuse and 28% of Irish men.

D0NNELLY · 06-11-2016 10:51PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you serious? Have you been to a party where things turned ugly, sex, violence, drugs etc?

Not sure if it needs spelling out, but will do. The fellows who were there denied it. Obviously enough...did you think they'd turn themselves in? The friend I have in the group, who was allegedly one of the witnesses, tells me he was downstairs and knew something bad was happening, and regrets not going upstairs to intervene. The Gardai say it definitely happened, but the victim wouldn't go further.

I can't believe how normal you think this is...
No, ive never been to a party where someone was raped!

Wibbs · 06-11-2016 10:52PM

ash23 wrote: »

So I suppose I am one of the four in ten. If four in ten women are being assaulted and raped, do we really believe that it's being done by a tiny percentage of the population?

1) I'm sorry, but personal anecdote, while of course is personally hurtful and all that may come with that, does not an actual statistic make. Not even close. We go the personal route and we risk reactive mob rule based on eff all.

2) Four in ten, where does that come from? Is it yet another perennial twist on the one in four/five/six(these things rarely agree) stat peddled to the general public since the US college campus Koss study and I use the word "study" extremely loosely? That study, taken as gospel in the Victim Church movement, is so flimsy and full of demonstrable holes it would pass decent muster as a teabag. And yes I can back that up with actual statistics.

In any halfway civilised liberal democracy NO crime, no matter how trivial, never mind getting within an asses roar of sexual assault and/or rape has a victim rate even close to 20 odd per cent(well… maybe speeding). And only in the most addled mind, would someone suggest any crime comes within a rate of nearly fifty per cent. You're actually claiming half of all women have been sexually assaulted? You'd want to be a German woman in Russian controlled Berlin post summer 1945 to get near that kinda stat. I call utter nonsense, nay utter bullshít on that statistic.

If one was to believe that, then the obvious conclusion would be is that nearly half of all men are guilty of sexual assault/rape. Unless scummy bastards and rapists travel around a lot. Again I call hysterical bollocks of the highest quality.

We're through the looking glass here people.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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