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Help me understand the 24/7 Heart Attack care report

24567

Comments

  • #52
    evani1976
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭evani1976


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Your reply did not include any figure to how much this will cost. Are people seriously asking for a service and they do not know how much this service will cost per year to provide. Shoddy stuff!

    This is a vital life saving service. People in South East deserve same treatment as any other part of country. We pay same taxes as anyone else in Ireland.


  • #53
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    evani1976 wrote: »
    This is a vital life saving service. People in South East deserve same treatment as any other part of country. We pay same taxes as anyone else in Ireland.

    So, for the third time asking, how much will it cost? The old line about 'we are all tax payers' doesn't fly.


  • #54
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Your reply did not include any figure to how much this will cost. Are people seriously asking for a service and they do not know how much this service will cost per year to provide. Shoddy stuff!

    If you cared to google there is an article with estimates here
    http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2015/01/six-consultants-needed-247-south-east-service.html

    But as I have demonstated in my reply here you are spoofing.

    It's like you had your mind made up you were going to lecture us Hayek style without seriously engaging in the contents of the report.


  • #55
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    There's an amazing article in the Irish Examiner today about Jennifer's story - I'm going to post it in full because everyone needs to read this

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/id-be-less-a-child-if-she-had-cardiac-arrest-after-5pm-420317.html
    Irish Examiner wrote:
    ‘I’d be less a child if she had cardiac arrest after 5pm’
    If Willie Doyle’s daughter had been an hour later getting to Waterford hospital, he doubts if she would be alive today.

    “My daughter [Jennifer Pheasey, 41] had a cardiac arrest at 4.30pm on a Friday. We were told that if it had happened an hour later she wouldn’t have survived. I’d be less a daughter, her children would be less a mother, and her husband would be less a wife,” he told the Irish Examiner.

    “She had been moving things earlier in the day and thought it was just a muscle pain but she went to her GP. The GP sent her straight over to casualty in Waterford hospital.

    “We got a call to say our daughter was dying and to come straight down. She was attended to straight away and had a stent fitted.”

    This was two years ago now and, ever since, the family has campaigned as the ‘24/7 Cardiac Cover for the South East’ group.

    At the moment, the cardiac unit of University Hospital Waterford (UHW) only operates on a 9am-5pm basis, Monday to Friday.

    “If you have a cardiac arrest, it means the blood supply to your heart is interrupted. You need a stent fitted, and you have 90 minutes maximum in which to do that,” said Mr Doyle.

    “So if you’re in Dublin, Cork, Galway, or Limerick and you have a cardiac arrest you can be treated 24/7, 365 days of the year.

    “But if you’re in the south-east and UHW is your nearest hospital, you can only have a cardiac arrest Monday to Friday, 9am-5pm, that’s when the unit is open.

    “When it comes to 5 o’clock, you’ve to go down to Cork. They say you can get down in an ambulance but, to get from the hospital out onto the dual carriageway, the ambulance has to negotiate 14 roundabouts.

    “They also say you could go by helicopter but that means having a helicopter on standby from 5 o’clock. And furthermore, there isn’t a helipad in UHW or in Cork.”

    Mr Doyle also explained the lack of services is not just an issue for the entire south-east region.

    “If you look at the south-east — that’s Wexford, Waterford, city and county, Kilkenny, and south Tipperary; that’s a population of half a million for UHW to cater for. That’s the region,” he said.

    “It’s about saving lives in the south-east and it doesn’t matter if you save one life or 10 lives — every life counts.”

    Every life counts. Indeed.


  • #56
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    Lots of interesting coverage in the papers today about the South East Campaign for Emergency Healthcare.

    Not least the headline in the Sunday Independent http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/i-will-rain-hell-on-this-government-35039206.html

    From what I have read in the coverage I am again disappointed that there seems to be the assumption that the report cannot be questioned.

    One expert, who made the catchment area a matter of opinion rather than fact and who was told "the service would be a waste of very limited resources", made some real analytical howlers to justify the unacceptable status quo.

    Now we must all bow in unquestioning reverence? It's so bad that Mr. Harris won't even meet the consultants in Waterford who clearly must know what is going on above everyone else.

    Either way, it is now clear that this issue is not going away. It has gone nuclear and will now dominate the media for the next week, at least until John Halligan appears on the Late Late Show next Friday (according to the Sunday Independent).

    Do people really think that Halligan got elected championing a total non-issue?


  • #57
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Lots of interesting coverage in the papers today about the South East Campaign for Emergency Healthcare.

    Not least the headline in the Sunday Independent http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/i-will-rain-hell-on-this-government-35039206.html

    From what I have read in the coverage I am again disappointed that there seems to be the assumption that the report cannot be questioned.

    One expert, who made the catchment area a matter of opinion rather than fact and who was told "the service would be a waste of very limited resources", made some real analytical howlers to justify the unacceptable status quo.

    Now we must all bow in unquestioning reverence? It's so bad that Mr. Harris won't even meet the consultants in Waterford who clearly must know what is going on above everyone else.

    Either way, it is now clear that this issue is not going away. It has gone nuclear and will now dominate the media for the next week, at least until John Halligan appears on the Late Late Show next Friday (according to the Sunday Independent).

    Do people really think that Halligan got elected championing a total non-issue?

    Halligan got elected for selling dreams to locals who bought into the fantasy. Remember, we are talking about a Minister of State who is too busy with this local issue rather then the executive position he holds. A position where he is responsible for the entire state.

    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    The only reason this issue is in the media are the threats that Halligan will leave government which could collapse the government. However, the IA are not going to jump ship with Halligan and there are 6 other Indo's already being primed as a replacement.

    So at the end of the day, Halliagn will be more then likely remembered in political science courses where students are taught how not to sign up to deals.


  • #58
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    Just read the Indo report. If the quotes are true then the good people of Waterford can kiss any hope of an extra cath unit goodbye. What an idiot Halligan is. Jumped up county councillor.


  • #59
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people believe for one second that Jennifer's story is remotely acceptable?

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people would think it reasonable to be less a daughter, mother, wife because of a failing, dysfunctional, mean, penny-pinching approach to a whole region which has been carved up to facilitate an ideology which is resulting in an unhealthy unique dependence on Dublin and Cork at the expense of people's lives?


  • #60
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page
    Why is it that once again the people of this region are brought to their knees and have to beg for a life saving service that the rest of the country has. Is it because some of the elected politicians in the SOUTH EAST are not vocal or strong enough to fight for this issue and deliver what we are entitled to. The Cardiac Unit at UHW is one of the 5 Centres Of Excellence in the country for cardiac intervention but only opens 9 to 5, Monday to Friday.

    It is beyond comprehension for a report to suggest that critically ill cardiac patients should have to endure a road journey to Cork ( subject to ambulance availability ) or a helicoptor journey ( subject to availability as it is primarily for coastguard duties with no landing pad in either UHW or CUH) and all of this while your lifesaving minutes are ticking away.


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  • #61
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Do you think the vast vast majority of people believe for one second that Jennifer's story is remotely acceptable?

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people would think it reasonable to be less a daughter, mother, wife because of a failing, dysfunctional, mean, penny-pinching approach to a whole region which has been carved up to facilitate an ideology which is resulting in an unhealthy unique dependence on Dublin and Cork at the expense of people's lives?


    What is the name of this ideology? There are finite resource at hand in the state. Those resources have to be allocated for the benefit of the entire nation. The people of Waterford are of course free to fundraiser and pay for their own private Cardic Unit if the only question is money.

    I think Halligan and his supporters will just have to suck it up or jump off that cliff. Either way they are not going to get what they want.


  • #62
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page

    Landing pad is actually being developed in CUH. Long over due but again a good indication that we need fewer hospitals that are jack of all trades and more specialist centres of excellence in the likes of Dublin, Cork and Galway.

    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    You are asking for special treatment in this regard. People in North Mayo have to get to Galway as an other example. You don't hear them crying about it.


  • #63
    evani1976
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭evani1976


    Mary Butler FF ran on providing 24/7 care as part of her election campaign. Has not uttered a word on current situation.


  • #64
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    You are asking for special treatment in this regard.

    Equal treatment - this is an equality issue.
    FA Hayek wrote: »
    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    Yet more presumptions - what if you don't have a car? There are many many people in Waterford and the south east dependent on public transport - the same transport that has been downgraded, wound-down and neglected - who bus eireann actually want rid of.


  • #65
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    What is the name of this ideology? There are finite resource at hand in the state. Those resources have to be allocated for the benefit of the entire nation. The people of Waterford are of course free to fundraiser and pay for their own private Cardic Unit if the only question is money.

    I think Halligan and his supporters will just have to suck it up or jump off that cliff. Either way they are not going to get what they want.

    As the South East Cardiac Care Facebook page made perfectly clear this is "a life saving service that the rest of the country has."

    You ask about the name of the ideology - based on Dr. O'Riordan's comments here - perhaps "one-track development" is what it is called.

    Whatever the name the results are very clear
    - reduced infrastructure - as is highlighted above about public transport
    - reduced healthcare - like the HSE's other drive to reduce Autism care in the South East - see here
    - reduced commitment to delivering jobs - look here to learn about the 20 year battle just to get the IDA office to re-open here

    If there was no problem why was there a need for a massive "Save Waterford" protest? - see here.


  • #66
    JMT2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭JMT2016


    The combination of all these "one-track development" decisions make the region less attractive to live in.

    And what really adds insult to injury is that this report uses "one-track development" referral patterns (like Kilkenny patients being sent to Dublin) to justify further reductions in emergency services!!

    It's like the snake that eats its own tail - except the real casualties will be the people stuck in situations like this


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  • #67
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Halligan got elected for selling dreams to locals who bought into the fantasy. Remember, we are talking about a Minister of State who is too busy with this local issue rather then the executive position he holds. A position where he is responsible for the entire state.

    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    The only reason this issue is in the media are the threats that Halligan will leave government which could collapse the government. However, the IA are not going to jump ship with Halligan and there are 6 other Indo's already being primed as a replacement.

    So at the end of the day, Halliagn will be more then likely remembered in political science courses where students are taught how not to sign up to deals.

    You have figures for that 'vast vast majority'?
    Some poll results to refer to?

    How many thousands of people have you spoken to about this?

    Where is the 'here' you refer to?
    Somewhere in the South-East region?


  • #68
    TheQuietFella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    The man is a fraud! Let's see him walk and the impact, if any it creates.


  • #69
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page

    Landing pad is actually being developed in CUH. Long over due but again a good indication that we need fewer hospitals that are jack of all trades and more specialist centres of excellence in the likes of Dublin, Cork and Galway.

    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    You are asking for special treatment in this regard. People in North Mayo have to get to Galway as an other example. You don't hear them crying about it.

    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.


  • #70
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.

    Sligo has a population of 65,000 and they all have to go to Galway.
    You would swear that Waterford is some huge urban area unique to Ireland. It is not. The population catchment area was alluded to in the report and I think that is a fair call. Again, the old way of giving every town and parish a hospital/airport/university is over. We actually have too many jack of all trades hospitals in the country. The centralisation process has been going on years and will continue to do so.


  • #71
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Equal treatment - this is an equality issue.

    Sorry but you are wrong. There is no human right to have a cardiac unit within a 5 minute drive from where you live. None.whatsoever.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Yet more presumptions - what if you don't have a car? There are many many people in Waterford and the south east dependent on public transport - the same transport that has been downgraded, wound-down and neglected - who bus eireann actually want rid of.

    I have already made my opinion clear on investments in both road infrastructure and an air ambulance service. If the latter was being fought for that is something many people could back. However, Halligan and co are just looking for local jobs and jobs for the boys in this regard. Never mind that the report doesn't recommend that. Screw what an independent health expert says, I just want my pork

    I already asked but if someone in wexford needed emergency cardiac treatment and it was shown that an air ambulance service would result in a vastly quicker turn around to Cork or Dublin, would you back this?


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  • #72
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.

    Sligo has a population of 65,000 and they all have to go to Galway.
    You would swear that Waterford is some huge urban area unique to Ireland. It is not. The population catchment area was alluded to in the report and I think that is a fair call. Again, the old way of giving every town and parish a hospital/airport/university is over. We actually have too many jack of all trades hospitals in the country. The centralisation process has been going on years and will continue to do so.

    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.


  • #73
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    As the South East Cardiac Care Facebook page made perfectly clear this is "a life saving service that the rest of the country has."

    Do the people of Sligo or Mayo not have it? Kerry or West Cork?
    The people of South East DO have cardiac care, its that they want it to be a 5 minute drive away, something most of the rest of the country don't have.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    You ask about the name of the ideology - based on Dr. O'Riordan's comments here - perhaps "one-track development" is what it is called.

    Whatever the name the results are very clear
    - reduced infrastructure - as is highlighted above about public transport
    - reduced healthcare - like the HSE's other drive to reduce Autism care in the South East - see here
    - reduced commitment to delivering jobs - look here to learn about the 20 year battle just to get the IDA office to re-open here

    Hence why the spatial strategy the state has embarked on for the past 50 years has failed. Giving every town and bit part city everything results in very poor outcomes. The State should concentrate on developing a counter weight to Dublin, that means directing lots of resources to a place like Cork. Of course every other place with give out about it but the choice here here more of the same, or having a prober counter weight and develop the state in a more balanced way. This would involve a course a M25 from Waterford City to Cork being built. Journey times from Cork to Waterford in less then an hour. No need then the have UWH have so many services it really can't maintain.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    If there was no problem why was there a need for a massive "Save Waterford" protest? - see here.

    The same was said about Roscommon a few years ago, yet they have been proven incorrect at the end of the day.


  • #74
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Why? Because you say so? As per the review only 26% of the population of Kilkenny would be referred to Waterford. You say all should. I would rather take the view of Dr. Herity rather then some local who just wants jobs for the boys.
    O Riain wrote: »
    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.

    In terms of Ireland perhaps but as I repeatedly say, the old way of doings is dead.


  • #75
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Why? Because you say so? As per the review only 26% of the population of Kilkenny would be referred to Waterford. You say all should. I would rather take the view of Dr. Herity rather then some local who just wants jobs for the boys.
    O Riain wrote: »
    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.

    In terms of Ireland perhaps but as I repeatedly say, the old way of doings is dead.

    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!


  • #76
    invara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 421 ✭✭invara


    It is great to see Halligan fighting this out- he is representing for 560k people who are being shafted by Dublin and Cork medics. Clearly Conway and Coffey had similar battles in private and lost. You would have to admire Halligan's simple expectation that people at the top of government should be people of their word; his bravery in calling them out and fighting against the vested interests in healthcare.

    We need to hear from Covney and Noonan (instead of their off-the-record briefings and spokesmen)- Halligan has detailed the promises that they made in front of Shane Ross (who also needs to put on record his recollection of the promises made), giving a very specific recollection of the language used. So they have been called duplicitous by Halligan; so who is lying?

    We also need to see Michael Martin (who campaigned in front of UHW/WRH with a a promise to "secure 24/7 cardiac care in UHW") back up his promises that enabled Mary Butler to get a seat.

    If Halligan is speaking the truth and he has been duped by Noonan and Covney it means that all Independents cannot trust the deals that they made with these men.


  • #77
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.


  • #78
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.

    We are not getting 24/7 care, just a few extra hours a week


  • #79
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    O Riain wrote: »
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.

    We are not getting 24/7 care, just a few extra hours a week

    Yeah I am aware of that but wondering why we need a second one when 24/7 is what should be called for and a priority.

    I don't buy a case for a second one and 24/7 at same time so curious to know why a second is so importent over 24/7 at the existing one.


  • #80
    Dunmoreroader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    Couldn't agree more. Herity should have questioned why consultants in St. Luke's are sending their patients 2 hours+ to James/Mater/Vincents in Dublin rather than 50 minutes to their regional acute hospital; UHW. They have being doing this since before the breakup of the Southeast health region, in fact part of the reason it was diced and sliced to suit Dublin and Cork medical empire builders.


  • #81
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,767 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I don't know if it has changed, but it seems to me that there is valuable equipment at UHW that is not being used to its full capacity. Patients on wards could be taken for scans, xrays etc before 9am and after 5pm leaving the facilities available for out patients for the rest of the day. There have been several occasions when I have been kept in, taking up a bed for a day, waiting for a scan etc but the equipment is in use for emergencies etc. It would mean having a shift system but that would be more efficient in the long run than keeping people in hospital or creating long waiting lists.

    Having said that, I have noticed that the appointment system for both consultations and procedures has become considerably more efficient over maybe the last couple of years. So something is being done right!


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  • #82
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    looksee wrote: »
    I don't know if it has changed, but it seems to me that there is valuable equipment at UHW that is not being used to its full capacity. Patients on wards could be taken for scans, xrays etc before 9am and after 5pm leaving the facilities available for out patients for the rest of the day. There have been several occasions when I have been kept in, taking up a bed for a day, waiting for a scan etc but the equipment is in use for emergencies etc. It would mean having a shift system but that would be more efficient in the long run than keeping people in hospital or creating long waiting lists.

    Having said that, I have noticed that the appointment system for both consultations and procedures has become considerably more efficient over maybe the last couple of years. So something is being done right!

    What you're suggesting is a doubling up though. You cant expect lab staffers and cardiac techs to work 4hr shifts, they all do 8hrs with limited overtime even in St James'.

    Medical equipment can be very expensive but payroll is a behemoth.


  • #83
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/health/cork-cath-lab-service-set-to-expand-while-waterford-patients-wait-35040734.html

    Becoming a bit of a joke now at this stage.


  • #84
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.


  • #85
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.

    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.


  • #86
    AdMMM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,472 ✭✭✭AdMMM


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.

    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?


  • #87
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.

    Better specialist care and better outcomes with more lives saved at the end of the day.

    If you had the choice of a regional hospital with average facilities but was a bit closer or a hospital with world class facilities, services and consultants but was a bit further away, which one would you pick?

    The idea that the nearer hospital will always be the best choice is an ancient idea that belongs in the 1950's.

    Now I know the stock answer will be, just build a world class facility in Waterford, but again Ireland does not have the density of population or the money to provide world class services in every county.

    We have been spreading resources too thin for decades which leads to sub standard outcomes. The past 15 years we have tried to create centres of excellence with great success for cancer care for example. People were outraged about it but the stats and facts prove that this type of care works. Once the benefits are self evident no one wants to go back to the old model.


  • #88
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    AdMMM wrote: »
    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?

    Of course there could be a mistake, no one is infallible but you have to do better then that. You have to prove on the basis of medical need.

    People do not like the conclusion of the report yet are unable to articulate anything other then throwing toys out of their pram.


  • #89
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.

    Better specialist care and better outcomes with more lives saved at the end of the day.

    If you had the choice of a regional hospital with average facilities but was a bit closer or a hospital with world class facilities, services and consultants but was a bit further away, which one would you pick?

    The idea that the nearer hospital will always be the best choice is an ancient idea that belongs in the 1950's.

    Now I know the stock answer will be, just build a world class facility in Waterford, but again Ireland does not have the density of population or the money to provide world class services in every county.

    We have been spreading resources too thin for decades which leads to sub standard outcomes. The past 15 years we have tried to create centres of excellence with great success for cancer care for example. People were outraged about it but the stats and facts prove that this type of care works. Once the benefits are self evident no one wants to go back to the old model.

    If you were having a heart attack in Kilkenny then the extra 40 minutes might end up costing you your life. Theres not a top class facility or person in the world who can fix you up when your dead.


  • #90
    scout353
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭scout353


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Of course there could be a mistake, no one is infallible but you have to do better then that. You have to prove on the basis of medical need.

    People do not like the conclusion of the report yet are unable to articulate anything other then throwing toys out of their pram.

    If one life is saved because the facility in Waterford is open after 5pm then that is justification enough.

    I know of one person who happened the have a heart attack at 4.50pm and thus was treated successfully in WUH. If that had happened at 5.10pm then a trip to Cork would have been required and that person would have died!

    Why should people be discriminated by virtue of their address? And that question applies across a lot of areas!!!


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  • #91
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    If you were having a heart attack in Kilkenny then the extra 40 minutes might end up costing you your life. Theres not a top class facility or person in the world who can fix you up when your dead.

    Hence, for the umpteen time more money should be put into an air ambulance service and infrastructure.

    It seems the only argument you have is an emotional one which means we are almost done here.


  • #92
    Quintis
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Quintis


    AdMMM wrote: »
    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?

    Yes, but no one has yet to come forward with another methodology for calculating catchment that disputes this number, the figures mentioned to contradict Dr. Heritys report don't seem to be based on any recognized formula


  • #93
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    AdMMM wrote: »
    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?

    Of course there could be a mistake, no one is infallible but you have to do better then that. You have to prove on the basis of medical need.

    People do not like the conclusion of the report yet are unable to articulate anything other then throwing toys out of their pram.

    What about what Dr. Rob Landers and Dr. Patrick Owens have said? Do their views that this report is flawed not matter?


  • #94
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    scout353 wrote: »
    If one life is saved because the facility in Waterford is open after 5pm then that is justification enough.

    I know of one person who happened the have a heart attack at 4.50pm and thus was treated successfully in WUH. If that had happened at 5.10pm then a trip to Cork would have been required and that person would have died!

    Why should people be discriminated by virtue of their address? And that question applies across a lot of areas!!!

    That is a wider issue for rural Ireland who expect world class services on their door step paid for of course by the larger urban centres. I can tell you that is the trade off of living in rural areas. This mindset belongs to the 1950's.

    If you want to point fingers, point it at the spatial strategy followed by the state since the foundation of the country which allowed disparate one off developments everywhere, populations spread out and no concept of consolidating services in larger urban areas.

    We are now living with this mess. The tide has turned though. Ireland is the fastest urbanising country in the EU, the more people who live in the city and less in the county means we can finally modernise much of the state and policy decisions.


  • #95
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    But that's not what's being discussed here. We are not talking about a report on Air Ambulances, we are talking about a report on a second Cath lab in the South East.

    You are coming out with awful fanciful stuff like building a motorway to Cork in order to make ambulance access quicker! My god do you even realise how much that would cost?

    Can you also comment on Waterfords waiting times going up by 161% since being managed by Cork? You seem to think this centralisation of healthcare in Cork is the way to go but it doesn't seem to be doing us any good in the south east.

    Also, what was emotional in what I just said? 40 minutes is a hell of a long time when your having a medical emergency!


  • #96
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    What about what Dr. Rob Landers and Dr. Patrick Owens have said? Do their views that this report is flawed not matter?

    Well, less so because they have a vested interest. I thought that would be obvious. The only person who did not have a vested interest is Dr Herity. Lets give him the benefit of the doubt.


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  • #97
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    Do people think it's feasible to run a 24/7 primary PCI centre with 2 consultants? Do people think it's feasible or safe to increase the number of,consultants in Waterford to the number needed to run a 24/7 primary PCI service? If you're doing primary PCI you need to be doing lots of it. Cork have 7 consultants operating the PCI rota.


  • #98
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    But that's not what's being discussed here. We are not talking about a report on Air Ambulances, we are talking about a report on a second Cath lab in the South East.

    You are coming out with awful fanciful stuff like building a motorway to Cork in order to make ambulance access quicker! My god do you even realise how much that would cost?

    Can you also comment on Waterfords waiting times going up by 161% since being managed by Cork? You seem to think this centralisation of healthcare in Cork is the way to go but it doesn't seem to be doing us any good in the south east.

    Also, what was emotional in what I just said? 40 minutes is a hell of a long time when your having a medical emergency!

    Did you not post a link stating more resources will be given to Cork, which I presume will help with those waiting times?

    Building roads is not fanciful. Roads are built everyday. There is one being built right now from Tuam to Gort. Having an M25 type road was in the works before the bust.

    Air ambulances are also not fanciful, in fact there is one operating right now from Athlone which does great work and gets people, mostly in the West to Trauma care in Galway. It was a pilot scheme initially but will more then likely become permanent and will be extended over time once services are consolidated in the major centres of excellence. Money would be much better off spent on that then Cardiac care in Waterford

    As I said, before if you live in the Berra peninsula in Cork, travel time to CUH could be up to 120 minutes. Should there be a cardiac centre in Bantry?

    Nothing but emotional Joe Duffy style debating


  • #99
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    But that's not what's being discussed here. We are not talking about a report on Air Ambulances, we are talking about a report on a second Cath lab in the South East.

    You are coming out with awful fanciful stuff like building a motorway to Cork in order to make ambulance access quicker! My god do you even realise how much that would cost?

    Can you also comment on Waterfords waiting times going up by 161% since being managed by Cork? You seem to think this centralisation of healthcare in Cork is the way to go but it doesn't seem to be doing us any good in the south east.

    Also, what was emotional in what I just said? 40 minutes is a hell of a long time when your having a medical emergency!

    Did you not post a link stating more resources will be given to Cork, which I presume will help with those waiting times?

    Building roads is not fanciful. Roads are built everyday. There is one being built right now from Tuam to Gort. Having an M25 type road was in the works before the bust.

    Air ambulances are also not fanciful, in fact there is one operating right now from Athlone which does great work and gets people, mostly in the West to Trauma care in Galway. It was a pilot scheme initially but will more then likely become permanent and will be extended over time once services are consolidated in the major centres of excellence. Money would be much better off spent on that then Cardiac care in Waterford

    As I said, before if you live in the Berra peninsula in Cork, travel time to CUH could be up to 120 minutes. Should there be a cardiac centre in Bantry?

    Nothing but emotional Joe Duffy style debating

    Waterford is not "Rural Ireland" and comparing it to the Beara Peninsula just goes to show how out of touch you are on this whole thing.


  • #100
    FA Hayek
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    Waterford is not "Rural Ireland" and comparing it to the Beara Peninsula just goes to show how out of touch you are on this whole thing.

    Shifting the goal posts again.


  • #101
    evani1976
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭evani1976


    There is a hugh difference in how patients present. A critically ill patient post cardiac arrest should be the basis of what is the medical need. This patients need is have access to a cardiologist and a cath lab within two hours from all geographical areas in the South East.

    How can this be possible if an ambulance has to respond to a stricken patient up to an hour east of UHW e.g Rosslare, Kilmore Quay.?

    Surely this is when a helicopter should be used from designated population centres i.e. Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford.


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