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Help me understand the 24/7 Heart Attack care report

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page

    Landing pad is actually being developed in CUH. Long over due but again a good indication that we need fewer hospitals that are jack of all trades and more specialist centres of excellence in the likes of Dublin, Cork and Galway.

    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    You are asking for special treatment in this regard. People in North Mayo have to get to Galway as an other example. You don't hear them crying about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭ evani1976


    Mary Butler FF ran on providing 24/7 care as part of her election campaign. Has not uttered a word on current situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    You are asking for special treatment in this regard.

    Equal treatment - this is an equality issue.
    FA Hayek wrote: »
    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    Yet more presumptions - what if you don't have a car? There are many many people in Waterford and the south east dependent on public transport - the same transport that has been downgraded, wound-down and neglected - who bus eireann actually want rid of.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    What is the name of this ideology? There are finite resource at hand in the state. Those resources have to be allocated for the benefit of the entire nation. The people of Waterford are of course free to fundraiser and pay for their own private Cardic Unit if the only question is money.

    I think Halligan and his supporters will just have to suck it up or jump off that cliff. Either way they are not going to get what they want.

    As the South East Cardiac Care Facebook page made perfectly clear this is "a life saving service that the rest of the country has."

    You ask about the name of the ideology - based on Dr. O'Riordan's comments here - perhaps "one-track development" is what it is called.

    Whatever the name the results are very clear
    - reduced infrastructure - as is highlighted above about public transport
    - reduced healthcare - like the HSE's other drive to reduce Autism care in the South East - see here
    - reduced commitment to delivering jobs - look here to learn about the 20 year battle just to get the IDA office to re-open here

    If there was no problem why was there a need for a massive "Save Waterford" protest? - see here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    The combination of all these "one-track development" decisions make the region less attractive to live in.

    And what really adds insult to injury is that this report uses "one-track development" referral patterns (like Kilkenny patients being sent to Dublin) to justify further reductions in emergency services!!

    It's like the snake that eats its own tail - except the real casualties will be the people stuck in situations like this


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,922 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Halligan got elected for selling dreams to locals who bought into the fantasy. Remember, we are talking about a Minister of State who is too busy with this local issue rather then the executive position he holds. A position where he is responsible for the entire state.

    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    The only reason this issue is in the media are the threats that Halligan will leave government which could collapse the government. However, the IA are not going to jump ship with Halligan and there are 6 other Indo's already being primed as a replacement.

    So at the end of the day, Halliagn will be more then likely remembered in political science courses where students are taught how not to sign up to deals.

    You have figures for that 'vast vast majority'?
    Some poll results to refer to?

    How many thousands of people have you spoken to about this?

    Where is the 'here' you refer to?
    Somewhere in the South-East region?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭ TheQuietFella


    The man is a fraud! Let's see him walk and the impact, if any it creates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page

    Landing pad is actually being developed in CUH. Long over due but again a good indication that we need fewer hospitals that are jack of all trades and more specialist centres of excellence in the likes of Dublin, Cork and Galway.

    As for comparison sake, if you life in the Berra peninsula Co. Cork you are a good 120 minutes away from CUH by car. If the people of Cork deem it acceptable that it takes this long to get to CUH then the people of Waterford can also travel by car to Cork which is actually a shorter drive.

    You are asking for special treatment in this regard. People in North Mayo have to get to Galway as an other example. You don't hear them crying about it.

    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.

    Sligo has a population of 65,000 and they all have to go to Galway.
    You would swear that Waterford is some huge urban area unique to Ireland. It is not. The population catchment area was alluded to in the report and I think that is a fair call. Again, the old way of giving every town and parish a hospital/airport/university is over. We actually have too many jack of all trades hospitals in the country. The centralisation process has been going on years and will continue to do so.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Equal treatment - this is an equality issue.

    Sorry but you are wrong. There is no human right to have a cardiac unit within a 5 minute drive from where you live. None.whatsoever.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Yet more presumptions - what if you don't have a car? There are many many people in Waterford and the south east dependent on public transport - the same transport that has been downgraded, wound-down and neglected - who bus eireann actually want rid of.

    I have already made my opinion clear on investments in both road infrastructure and an air ambulance service. If the latter was being fought for that is something many people could back. However, Halligan and co are just looking for local jobs and jobs for the boys in this regard. Never mind that the report doesn't recommend that. Screw what an independent health expert says, I just want my pork

    I already asked but if someone in wexford needed emergency cardiac treatment and it was shown that an air ambulance service would result in a vastly quicker turn around to Cork or Dublin, would you back this?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    North Mayo! How can you honestly compare the Waterford City/South East to North Mayo?? Do you realise that Waterford City has a population of 55,000 with 5,000 in Ferrybank and then another 10,000 ten minutes out the road in tramore? On top of that you have Carrick (6,000), New Ross (10,000), Dungarven (9,000) and Kilkenny (25,000) within about 40 minutes. Thats not even including smaller towns scattered all over the place. You'd swear it has the population density similar to the surface of the moon the way you are going on trying to justify your point of view.

    Sligo has a population of 65,000 and they all have to go to Galway.
    You would swear that Waterford is some huge urban area unique to Ireland. It is not. The population catchment area was alluded to in the report and I think that is a fair call. Again, the old way of giving every town and parish a hospital/airport/university is over. We actually have too many jack of all trades hospitals in the country. The centralisation process has been going on years and will continue to do so.

    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    As the South East Cardiac Care Facebook page made perfectly clear this is "a life saving service that the rest of the country has."

    Do the people of Sligo or Mayo not have it? Kerry or West Cork?
    The people of South East DO have cardiac care, its that they want it to be a 5 minute drive away, something most of the rest of the country don't have.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    You ask about the name of the ideology - based on Dr. O'Riordan's comments here - perhaps "one-track development" is what it is called.

    Whatever the name the results are very clear
    - reduced infrastructure - as is highlighted above about public transport
    - reduced healthcare - like the HSE's other drive to reduce Autism care in the South East - see here
    - reduced commitment to delivering jobs - look here to learn about the 20 year battle just to get the IDA office to re-open here

    Hence why the spatial strategy the state has embarked on for the past 50 years has failed. Giving every town and bit part city everything results in very poor outcomes. The State should concentrate on developing a counter weight to Dublin, that means directing lots of resources to a place like Cork. Of course every other place with give out about it but the choice here here more of the same, or having a prober counter weight and develop the state in a more balanced way. This would involve a course a M25 from Waterford City to Cork being built. Journey times from Cork to Waterford in less then an hour. No need then the have UWH have so many services it really can't maintain.
    JMT2016 wrote: »
    If there was no problem why was there a need for a massive "Save Waterford" protest? - see here.

    The same was said about Roscommon a few years ago, yet they have been proven incorrect at the end of the day.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Why? Because you say so? As per the review only 26% of the population of Kilkenny would be referred to Waterford. You say all should. I would rather take the view of Dr. Herity rather then some local who just wants jobs for the boys.
    O Riain wrote: »
    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.

    In terms of Ireland perhaps but as I repeatedly say, the old way of doings is dead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    The population of Kilkenny is 95,000 and by rights, all KK cases should go through Waterford!

    Why? Because you say so? As per the review only 26% of the population of Kilkenny would be referred to Waterford. You say all should. I would rather take the view of Dr. Herity rather then some local who just wants jobs for the boys.
    O Riain wrote: »
    Waterford is not much smaller than Galway but is a lot bigger than the next biggest town in Ireland (2x the size) which also lies in the hinterland of Waterford City!! In fact when you include ferrybank (which is actually in Waterford City, but you don't know that) and tramore which is 10 minutes out the road, it's the same bloody size as Galway!

    It terms of Ireland, it is a big urban area and this is undeniable no matter how much you want to deny it for your point.

    In terms of Ireland perhaps but as I repeatedly say, the old way of doings is dead.

    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭ invara


    It is great to see Halligan fighting this out- he is representing for 560k people who are being shafted by Dublin and Cork medics. Clearly Conway and Coffey had similar battles in private and lost. You would have to admire Halligan's simple expectation that people at the top of government should be people of their word; his bravery in calling them out and fighting against the vested interests in healthcare.

    We need to hear from Covney and Noonan (instead of their off-the-record briefings and spokesmen)- Halligan has detailed the promises that they made in front of Shane Ross (who also needs to put on record his recollection of the promises made), giving a very specific recollection of the language used. So they have been called duplicitous by Halligan; so who is lying?

    We also need to see Michael Martin (who campaigned in front of UHW/WRH with a a promise to "secure 24/7 cardiac care in UHW") back up his promises that enabled Mary Butler to get a seat.

    If Halligan is speaking the truth and he has been duped by Noonan and Covney it means that all Independents cannot trust the deals that they made with these men.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,499 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.

    We are not getting 24/7 care, just a few extra hours a week


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,499 ✭✭✭✭ Jamie2k9


    O Riain wrote: »
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Following but not paying much attention but if the current lab gets 24/7 ops then is there a real need for a second lab.

    Why don't he just wait and see how the extra staff/hours/equipment etc work out as I would prefer to have one excellent facility.

    Why is he not calling for 247 ops instead of a second as far as I can see it's more critical.

    Wonder how Simon Harris visit to the place will go soon.

    We are not getting 24/7 care, just a few extra hours a week

    Yeah I am aware of that but wondering why we need a second one when 24/7 is what should be called for and a priority.

    I don't buy a case for a second one and 24/7 at same time so curious to know why a second is so importent over 24/7 at the existing one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    Couldn't agree more. Herity should have questioned why consultants in St. Luke's are sending their patients 2 hours+ to James/Mater/Vincents in Dublin rather than 50 minutes to their regional acute hospital; UHW. They have being doing this since before the breakup of the Southeast health region, in fact part of the reason it was diced and sliced to suit Dublin and Cork medical empire builders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,873 ✭✭✭✭ looksee


    I don't know if it has changed, but it seems to me that there is valuable equipment at UHW that is not being used to its full capacity. Patients on wards could be taken for scans, xrays etc before 9am and after 5pm leaving the facilities available for out patients for the rest of the day. There have been several occasions when I have been kept in, taking up a bed for a day, waiting for a scan etc but the equipment is in use for emergencies etc. It would mean having a shift system but that would be more efficient in the long run than keeping people in hospital or creating long waiting lists.

    Having said that, I have noticed that the appointment system for both consultations and procedures has become considerably more efficient over maybe the last couple of years. So something is being done right!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,115 ✭✭✭✭ ED E


    looksee wrote: »
    I don't know if it has changed, but it seems to me that there is valuable equipment at UHW that is not being used to its full capacity. Patients on wards could be taken for scans, xrays etc before 9am and after 5pm leaving the facilities available for out patients for the rest of the day. There have been several occasions when I have been kept in, taking up a bed for a day, waiting for a scan etc but the equipment is in use for emergencies etc. It would mean having a shift system but that would be more efficient in the long run than keeping people in hospital or creating long waiting lists.

    Having said that, I have noticed that the appointment system for both consultations and procedures has become considerably more efficient over maybe the last couple of years. So something is being done right!

    What you're suggesting is a doubling up though. You cant expect lab staffers and cardiac techs to work 4hr shifts, they all do 8hrs with limited overtime even in St James'.

    Medical equipment can be very expensive but payroll is a behemoth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain




  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.

    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,472 ✭✭✭ AdMMM


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    No, because it is much bloody closer to Waterford than Dublin. As I said before, even the extreme north of Kilkenny is closer to Waterford than Dublin, yet 75% of KK goes to Dublin? That's a handy one to prop the numbers up!

    If the old way of doing things was dead then we would be getting the university upgrade and the hospital sorted. The old way is very much still alive in Waterford boy!

    You better tell Simon Harris and Dr. Herity that they are both wrong and the entire report is false.

    Thankfully the nation has coped onto the likes of Halligan. FG are not going to give in on this. Old ways or not Waterford will not be getting its 24x7 cardiac care. The HSE even have difficulty hiring staff for existing services, never mind providing one for waterford at great expense and waste to the Irish tax payer.

    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.

    Better specialist care and better outcomes with more lives saved at the end of the day.

    If you had the choice of a regional hospital with average facilities but was a bit closer or a hospital with world class facilities, services and consultants but was a bit further away, which one would you pick?

    The idea that the nearer hospital will always be the best choice is an ancient idea that belongs in the 1950's.

    Now I know the stock answer will be, just build a world class facility in Waterford, but again Ireland does not have the density of population or the money to provide world class services in every county.

    We have been spreading resources too thin for decades which leads to sub standard outcomes. The past 15 years we have tried to create centres of excellence with great success for cancer care for example. People were outraged about it but the stats and facts prove that this type of care works. Once the benefits are self evident no one wants to go back to the old model.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    AdMMM wrote: »
    Are you not even open to the possibility that the methodology used to calculate the catchment area is flawed, or sub-optimal? Even when you consider that the Department that commissioned the report briefed him that they didn't think it was warranted?

    I don't think anyone is questioning Dr. Herity's credentials, but do you not accept that he could have made a mistake?

    Of course there could be a mistake, no one is infallible but you have to do better then that. You have to prove on the basis of medical need.

    People do not like the conclusion of the report yet are unable to articulate anything other then throwing toys out of their pram.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    O Riain wrote: »
    Could you tell me what sense it makes sending patients, in emergency situations, to another hospital that is twice as far away as their local Regional hospital?

    Please answer that for me.

    Better specialist care and better outcomes with more lives saved at the end of the day.

    If you had the choice of a regional hospital with average facilities but was a bit closer or a hospital with world class facilities, services and consultants but was a bit further away, which one would you pick?

    The idea that the nearer hospital will always be the best choice is an ancient idea that belongs in the 1950's.

    Now I know the stock answer will be, just build a world class facility in Waterford, but again Ireland does not have the density of population or the money to provide world class services in every county.

    We have been spreading resources too thin for decades which leads to sub standard outcomes. The past 15 years we have tried to create centres of excellence with great success for cancer care for example. People were outraged about it but the stats and facts prove that this type of care works. Once the benefits are self evident no one wants to go back to the old model.

    If you were having a heart attack in Kilkenny then the extra 40 minutes might end up costing you your life. Theres not a top class facility or person in the world who can fix you up when your dead.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,170 ✭✭✭ scout353


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Of course there could be a mistake, no one is infallible but you have to do better then that. You have to prove on the basis of medical need.

    People do not like the conclusion of the report yet are unable to articulate anything other then throwing toys out of their pram.

    If one life is saved because the facility in Waterford is open after 5pm then that is justification enough.

    I know of one person who happened the have a heart attack at 4.50pm and thus was treated successfully in WUH. If that had happened at 5.10pm then a trip to Cork would have been required and that person would have died!

    Why should people be discriminated by virtue of their address? And that question applies across a lot of areas!!!


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    O Riain wrote: »
    If you were having a heart attack in Kilkenny then the extra 40 minutes might end up costing you your life. Theres not a top class facility or person in the world who can fix you up when your dead.

    Hence, for the umpteen time more money should be put into an air ambulance service and infrastructure.

    It seems the only argument you have is an emotional one which means we are almost done here.


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