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Help me understand the 24/7 Heart Attack care report

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    There's an important post on the politics cafe which reminds us of one of the main hazards of the "ship em all to cork" approach being foisted on us and why this report is significantly flawed

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057641960&page=8

    Faugheen wrote: »
    I'm with Halligan on this one. I'm not from Waterford nor am I an IA supporter by any means, but I'm in the catchment area for UHW.

    Last winter, Dungarvan was like an island. Imagine someone in my family needed cardiac treatment out of hours at that time? The ambulance wouldn't have had a chance of getting through Dungarvan (the main road to Cork) and
    Now imagine 10/20 other families were in the same boat around the same time? Imagine someone died on the transfer to CUH? Is that what it's going to take for people to realise UHW needs 24/7 cardiac services? If it prevents the above scenario then it serves it's purpose.

    People who aren't from this area calling Halligan this, that and everything else need not to comment on something they know nothing about. This is a far bigger issue for people than just John Halligan and people living in Waterford. Three other counties need to be considered here too. He's just the first person trying to get something done about it.

    He went into Government on the assumption this would happen. If FG go back on it, why should he stay around? He doesn't go into government if this isn't promised so why should he stick around if it's recommended to be reduced?

    Of course Faugheen might think he/she is in the catchment area but according to Dr. Herity's opinion on catchment areas (s)he's probably in that other half of the region that has vanished for the purposes of the report.


  • Registered Users Posts: 600 ✭✭✭ Annabella1


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Because that makes good sense!

    Interestingly the report page 20 only allows 53% of South Tipp population to Waterford catchment- surely cork aren't using that other 47% to boost their numbers as well!

    Patients from South Tipp General Hospital go to CUH via motorway


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    Annabella1 wrote: »
    Patients from South Tipp General Hospital go to CUH via motorway

    Page 19 has a diagram which says the opposite:
    "Figure 3.4 Established referral patterns for cath lab procedures into UHW with external referrals predominantly coming from Wexford General and South Tipperary General Hospitals (arrows)"

    Now that might be in the pipeline, divide the region and let the emergency cases of Waterford, Wexford and South Kilkenny be left stuck with this


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭ evani1976


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Dr. Herity was interviewed this morning by Cathal MacCoille on Radio 1.

    Was disappointed by it. Cathal was using the wrong figures in the report - he should have been using the table on page 20 and this wasted valuable time to discuss the key issues.

    Cathal did mention the catchment area but didn't probe Dr. Herity's answer.

    No mention of why 74% of the population of Kilkenny is left out of Dr. Herity's catchment area for example.

    Also no questioning of the downgrade of the emergency care suggested by Dr. Herity - surely this controversial finding merited at least one question?

    To end on a positive note, he did put it to Dr. Herity to explain how the people of South Wexford who would be well over 2 hours from the treatment would be treated? This was the only time Dr. Herity struggled throughout the interview and his answer was left wanting especially his need to point out that there were some other parts of the country in a similar situation.

    Of course he didn't highlight that these areas were sparsely populated and not a regional hub of several hundred thousand people.

    The interview did get across that this is a regional issue which has been somewhat missed with several people and media outlets taking advantage of the opportunity to have potshots at John Halligan at the expense of the serious healthcare issues at play.

    Its depressing what people are throwing at Halligan, he seems to have genuine integrity. Agree 100% about South Wexford, if there was only 1 person outside 2 hour intervention period that should still be a reason for 24/7 care. Everyone in Ireland should have access to same level of care.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    evani1976 wrote: »
    Its depressing what people are throwing at Halligan, he seems to have genuine integrity. Agree 100% about South Wexford, if there was only 1 person outside 2 hour intervention period that should still be a reason for 24/7 care. Everyone in Ireland should have access to same level of care.

    Yes, it is a perfect mess - there are no winners here -

    1 Halligan - (and by extension all independents) taking a beating,
    2 People in the south east - still with precarious emergency healthcare,
    3 Dr. Herity - whose reputation for statistical analysis hasn't been done any favours - only 26% of the population of Kilkenny is included in the core catchment area, I mean really, how patently wrong is that?
    4 Fine Gael - committed to standing by what is a now discredited report.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    Actually I'm wrong - there is one winner out of all this - it is the cardiology team in the hospital.

    They are actually AMAZING and the fact that they can DELIVER such a wonderful caseload with only 24% opening hours compared to the other 24/7 cardiology units is truly a miracle.

    The fact that this has been brought to national attention via the report is actually a success story we shouldn't forget about!


  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭ evani1976


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Actually I'm wrong - there is one winner out of all this - it is the cardiology team in the hospital.

    They are actually AMAZING and the fact that they can DELIVER such a wonderful caseload with only 24% opening hours compared to the other 24/7 cardiology units is truly a miracle.

    The fact that this has been brought to national attention via the report is actually a success story we shouldn't forget about!

    Why does minister not put trust in UHW cardiology team?

    Dr Owens has stated in clear terms the need for 24/7 care in UHW in radio interview previously posted. Whats in it for him but genuine concern?

    Would 24/7 care not also create a more pro active enviroment with increased screening , early diagnosis and possibly save money long term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    evani1976 wrote: »
    Would 24/7 care not also create a more pro active enviroment with increased screening , early diagnosis and possibly save money long term.

    unfortunately, our 'health care system' is largely based on short term thinking and planning


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    It's actually laughable when the HSE's own website describes UHW as follows:

    University Hospital Waterford provides general medical, surgical and maternity care to people living in South Kilkenny, Waterford City and County. The hospital provides specialty services to the population of the south east c. 500 000 in the following areas of clinical practice:
    Cardiology (including Interventional Cardiac Procedures), Trauma Orthopaedics, Opthalmology, Neurology, Nephrology, Rheumatology, Urology, Vascular Surgery, ENT and Neonatology, Radiology, Pathology and Microbiology.


    So it seems like the population is 500,000 in everything but this report.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    I think the tide is starting to turn on the the news stories regarding the report. Here's the Irish time discussing the increase in wait lists since we became administrated by cork:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/waterford-hospital-waiting-lists-rise-161-since-2013-1.2786162?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/waterford-hospital-waiting-lists-rise-161-since-2013-1.2786162

    Fairly shocking figure


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,524 ✭✭✭✭ fits


    I am in south carlow. My father who is now deceased had ongoing cardiac issues and was usually cared for in kilkenny or dublin. Father in law living in carlow also has heart problems and again is in kiljenny and sometimes referred to st james' in dublin.

    For other services eg maternity, people here seem to go to kilkenny, waterford and sometimes wexford. Waterford is about 50 minutes away. Dublin is about 105 minutes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    The hospital is being discussed on the Marion Finucane programme with Harry mcGee on Radio 1 at the moment - it was acknowledged as ludicrous that the service runs from 9-5 and they also highlighted that this is a regional issue - specifically noting that the consultants in Waterford were saying that large parts of Tipperary/Kilkenny/West Waterford were left out of the catchment area.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    Paraphrasing a comment from a listener to the programme:
    "I am from South Wexford and had to get a stent in Waterford and I was very happy to have the service there. I don't think John Halligan should resign - why do the media always go for the jugular".

    This again reinforces that this is a regional issue - I agree with O'Riain - the tide is starting to turn here now that people are actually seeing the reality of the situation and not the spin.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    The people I talk to know that this issue is nothing more the parish pump localism. How much money are we talking here to provide this service, per year?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭ O Riain


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    The people I talk to know that this issue is nothing more the parish pump localism. How much money are we talking here to provide this service, per year?

    When you say Parish Pump localism, can you tell me how big an issue it has to be to not be localism? Because this involves over 10% of the population.

    I suppose the bailout was localism as well?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,278 ✭✭✭✭ Sleeper12


    I believe the correct political term is "yis got shafted" :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    The people I talk to know that this issue is nothing more the parish pump localism. How much money are we talking here to provide this service, per year?

    Here is my reply to your post:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=101001397#post101001397


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    O Riain wrote: »
    I think the tide is starting to turn on the the news stories regarding the report. Here's the Irish time discussing the increase in wait lists since we became administrated by cork:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/waterford-hospital-waiting-lists-rise-161-since-2013-1.2786162?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fwaterford-hospital-waiting-lists-rise-161-since-2013-1.2786162

    Fairly shocking figure

    Couldn't agree more, shocking.Got the times and will be posting article to minister et al asking how can they morally stand over this hospital group.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »

    Your reply did not include any figure to how much this will cost. Are people seriously asking for a service and they do not know how much this service will cost per year to provide. Shoddy stuff!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭ evani1976


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Your reply did not include any figure to how much this will cost. Are people seriously asking for a service and they do not know how much this service will cost per year to provide. Shoddy stuff!

    This is a vital life saving service. People in South East deserve same treatment as any other part of country. We pay same taxes as anyone else in Ireland.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    evani1976 wrote: »
    This is a vital life saving service. People in South East deserve same treatment as any other part of country. We pay same taxes as anyone else in Ireland.

    So, for the third time asking, how much will it cost? The old line about 'we are all tax payers' doesn't fly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    Your reply did not include any figure to how much this will cost. Are people seriously asking for a service and they do not know how much this service will cost per year to provide. Shoddy stuff!

    If you cared to google there is an article with estimates here
    http://www.imt.ie/news/latest-news/2015/01/six-consultants-needed-247-south-east-service.html

    But as I have demonstated in my reply here you are spoofing.

    It's like you had your mind made up you were going to lecture us Hayek style without seriously engaging in the contents of the report.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    There's an amazing article in the Irish Examiner today about Jennifer's story - I'm going to post it in full because everyone needs to read this

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/id-be-less-a-child-if-she-had-cardiac-arrest-after-5pm-420317.html
    ‘I’d be less a child if she had cardiac arrest after 5pm’
    If Willie Doyle’s daughter had been an hour later getting to Waterford hospital, he doubts if she would be alive today.

    “My daughter [Jennifer Pheasey, 41] had a cardiac arrest at 4.30pm on a Friday. We were told that if it had happened an hour later she wouldn’t have survived. I’d be less a daughter, her children would be less a mother, and her husband would be less a wife,” he told the Irish Examiner.

    “She had been moving things earlier in the day and thought it was just a muscle pain but she went to her GP. The GP sent her straight over to casualty in Waterford hospital.

    “We got a call to say our daughter was dying and to come straight down. She was attended to straight away and had a stent fitted.”

    This was two years ago now and, ever since, the family has campaigned as the ‘24/7 Cardiac Cover for the South East’ group.

    At the moment, the cardiac unit of University Hospital Waterford (UHW) only operates on a 9am-5pm basis, Monday to Friday.

    “If you have a cardiac arrest, it means the blood supply to your heart is interrupted. You need a stent fitted, and you have 90 minutes maximum in which to do that,” said Mr Doyle.

    “So if you’re in Dublin, Cork, Galway, or Limerick and you have a cardiac arrest you can be treated 24/7, 365 days of the year.

    “But if you’re in the south-east and UHW is your nearest hospital, you can only have a cardiac arrest Monday to Friday, 9am-5pm, that’s when the unit is open.

    “When it comes to 5 o’clock, you’ve to go down to Cork. They say you can get down in an ambulance but, to get from the hospital out onto the dual carriageway, the ambulance has to negotiate 14 roundabouts.

    “They also say you could go by helicopter but that means having a helicopter on standby from 5 o’clock. And furthermore, there isn’t a helipad in UHW or in Cork.”

    Mr Doyle also explained the lack of services is not just an issue for the entire south-east region.

    “If you look at the south-east — that’s Wexford, Waterford, city and county, Kilkenny, and south Tipperary; that’s a population of half a million for UHW to cater for. That’s the region,” he said.

    “It’s about saving lives in the south-east and it doesn’t matter if you save one life or 10 lives — every life counts.”

    Every life counts. Indeed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    Lots of interesting coverage in the papers today about the South East Campaign for Emergency Healthcare.

    Not least the headline in the Sunday Independent http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/i-will-rain-hell-on-this-government-35039206.html

    From what I have read in the coverage I am again disappointed that there seems to be the assumption that the report cannot be questioned.

    One expert, who made the catchment area a matter of opinion rather than fact and who was told "the service would be a waste of very limited resources", made some real analytical howlers to justify the unacceptable status quo.

    Now we must all bow in unquestioning reverence? It's so bad that Mr. Harris won't even meet the consultants in Waterford who clearly must know what is going on above everyone else.

    Either way, it is now clear that this issue is not going away. It has gone nuclear and will now dominate the media for the next week, at least until John Halligan appears on the Late Late Show next Friday (according to the Sunday Independent).

    Do people really think that Halligan got elected championing a total non-issue?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Lots of interesting coverage in the papers today about the South East Campaign for Emergency Healthcare.

    Not least the headline in the Sunday Independent http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/i-will-rain-hell-on-this-government-35039206.html

    From what I have read in the coverage I am again disappointed that there seems to be the assumption that the report cannot be questioned.

    One expert, who made the catchment area a matter of opinion rather than fact and who was told "the service would be a waste of very limited resources", made some real analytical howlers to justify the unacceptable status quo.

    Now we must all bow in unquestioning reverence? It's so bad that Mr. Harris won't even meet the consultants in Waterford who clearly must know what is going on above everyone else.

    Either way, it is now clear that this issue is not going away. It has gone nuclear and will now dominate the media for the next week, at least until John Halligan appears on the Late Late Show next Friday (according to the Sunday Independent).

    Do people really think that Halligan got elected championing a total non-issue?

    Halligan got elected for selling dreams to locals who bought into the fantasy. Remember, we are talking about a Minister of State who is too busy with this local issue rather then the executive position he holds. A position where he is responsible for the entire state.

    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    The only reason this issue is in the media are the threats that Halligan will leave government which could collapse the government. However, the IA are not going to jump ship with Halligan and there are 6 other Indo's already being primed as a replacement.

    So at the end of the day, Halliagn will be more then likely remembered in political science courses where students are taught how not to sign up to deals.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    Just read the Indo report. If the quotes are true then the good people of Waterford can kiss any hope of an extra cath unit goodbye. What an idiot Halligan is. Jumped up county councillor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    FA Hayek wrote: »
    I think people in Waterford are seriously misguiding the issue nationally. The vast vast majority of people, in fact no one I have been talking to is on the side of Halligan here. Everyone can see through the nonsense.

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people believe for one second that Jennifer's story is remotely acceptable?

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people would think it reasonable to be less a daughter, mother, wife because of a failing, dysfunctional, mean, penny-pinching approach to a whole region which has been carved up to facilitate an ideology which is resulting in an unhealthy unique dependence on Dublin and Cork at the expense of people's lives?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 215 ✭✭ JMT2016


    Good post as well on the South East Cardiac Care Facebook Page
    Why is it that once again the people of this region are brought to their knees and have to beg for a life saving service that the rest of the country has. Is it because some of the elected politicians in the SOUTH EAST are not vocal or strong enough to fight for this issue and deliver what we are entitled to. The Cardiac Unit at UHW is one of the 5 Centres Of Excellence in the country for cardiac intervention but only opens 9 to 5, Monday to Friday.

    It is beyond comprehension for a report to suggest that critically ill cardiac patients should have to endure a road journey to Cork ( subject to ambulance availability ) or a helicoptor journey ( subject to availability as it is primarily for coastguard duties with no landing pad in either UHW or CUH) and all of this while your lifesaving minutes are ticking away.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭ FA Hayek


    JMT2016 wrote: »
    Do you think the vast vast majority of people believe for one second that Jennifer's story is remotely acceptable?

    Do you think the vast vast majority of people would think it reasonable to be less a daughter, mother, wife because of a failing, dysfunctional, mean, penny-pinching approach to a whole region which has been carved up to facilitate an ideology which is resulting in an unhealthy unique dependence on Dublin and Cork at the expense of people's lives?


    What is the name of this ideology? There are finite resource at hand in the state. Those resources have to be allocated for the benefit of the entire nation. The people of Waterford are of course free to fundraiser and pay for their own private Cardic Unit if the only question is money.

    I think Halligan and his supporters will just have to suck it up or jump off that cliff. Either way they are not going to get what they want.


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