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Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

1545557596068

Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    For an amendment planning application, is this open to observation and appeals as would be the process for a new planning application?

    Yes, afraid so! But, surely, there would be little to object in relation to a couple of sq.m.?

    If you had objectors to your original application, you may well get yourself into bigger/deeper problems if you build the extra couple of sq.m. without permission (even with the intention that you can get retention permission later).

    There are cases (in Dublin) where people have been prosecuted for breach of planning permission (...even after getting retention permission!).

    Breaching planning permission is a criminal offence. Retention permission just regularises from a planning perspective. It does not absolve the fact you broke the law in the first place!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭mrsWhippy


    So could the neighbours object to the application in its entirety again, or just the amendment itself? There is no way that the permission as it stands could be revoked?

    I'm not out to do anything illegal btw!


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    mrsWhippy wrote: »
    So could the neighbours object to the application in its entirety again, or just the amendment itself? There is no way that the permission as it stands could be revoked?

    Only the amendment. Your original planning permission still stands, and, you can get on building what you have planning permission for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,725 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Also to make it clear regarding retention ...

    The local authority do not have to give you permission to retain. They can refuse your application for retention.

    If they refuse you retention you will be expected to knock what's built and if you don't the local authority will take you to court to make sure you do!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    Be careful with your timelines if making an amendment application and commencing works on the original permission at the same time. If you had a FI Request last time and submissions on file your application may take some time to get through the system. You dont want to end up in a situation where you have to stop works because you are awaiting a decision on the amendment application.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Also to make it clear regarding retention ...

    The local authority do not have to give you permission to retain. They can refuse your application for retention.

    If they refuse you retention you will be expected to knock what's built and if you don't the local authority will take you to court to make sure you do!

    LA can and will take you to court but it is for a judge to decide and they don't always side with the LA.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,725 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Angry bird wrote: »
    LA can and will take you to court but it is for a judge to decide and they don't always side with the LA.

    A fair point. I should have phrased it better:

    The LA will take you to court where you will have to explain why you haven't regularised your situation. As Angry Bird says the courts don't always agree with the LA.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭kieran.


    Query in relation to planning condition below ?


    2a. Within three months of date of grant of planning permission applicant shall submit to the Planning Authority for agreement in writing revised plans indicating the following:
    (i) .................................
    (ii) .................................
    (iii) .................................
    b. Development shall be carried out in accordance with the revised plans or as otherwise agreed with the Planning Authority.

    If the revised plans are not submitted to the Authority within the 3 month time line would it by default mean the entire permission is not implementable ?

    Does anyone have any precedent for this happening?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Never seen a time limit before, however, if that's what the condition says, that's what it says. In theory, if you don't submit the required information in 3 months, the planning permission is void.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Never seen a time limit before, however, if that's what the condition says, that's what it says. In theory, if you don't submit the required information in 3 months, the planning permission is void.

    Conditions are broken all the time. It doesnt necessarily mean your permission is void. I dont know anywhere in legislation that says that. The Councils themselves have no definitive time frame to respond to you and ive waited in excess of a year to hear make from them on conditions that were to be agreed 'prior to the commencement of development...'. Sometimes ive never heard back.

    OP if you are having difficulty meeting the timeframe contact the Local Authority and your case planner and discuss it with them. They are normally quite reasonable. Maybe put in a holding submission outlining the reasons for your delay to buy time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    chippers wrote: »
    The Councils themselves have no definitive time frame to respond to you and ive waited in excess of a year to hear make from them on conditions that were to be agreed 'prior to the commencement of development...'. Sometimes ive never heard back.

    Always phrase it in the cover letter that you assume the enclosed to be satisfactory and you intend to commence construction in x time. Ask them to reply if they are not satisfied. That means if they don't reply, which I often find they don't, your covered. You're also putting a time limit on them by stating when construction will start.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,283 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    chippers wrote: »
    Conditions are broken all the time.

    I wouldn't agree that conditions are broken all the time? Maybe in your experience?

    Usually if a condition is broken it means you have not complied with your planning permission and it has to be regularised to ensure compliance.

    If a timeframe is stated in the conditions of the planning permission, and, you do not adhere to that time frame, there is no way of regularising that!

    Bear in mind that a planning permission is a legal document. The planner (or anybody in the planning office) cannot alter that condition afterwards.

    An alternative, if you are not happy with a condition in a planning permission is to appeal the decision to An Bord Pleanala.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 530 ✭✭✭chippers


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree that conditions are broken all the time? Maybe in your experience?
    .

    Not the condition but the timeframe. Yes in my experience the timeframe element of a condition is often not met. Both on the side of the developer not meeting it and the council not responding.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭ironmonkey


    Hi all I m new here so forgive any obvious questions. I'm looking to transfer the planning on an existing site to us. I think we should satisfy local needs criteria. I have arranged a meeting with the planner for two weeks time.
    What should I bring to the meeting. Would it be worth bringing a short overview as to why we think we meet the requirements?
    My second question is with regard to the existing planning building. It is a dormer style building with 3 bedrooms c2000 sq ft. We would want to change the layout out to make 4 bedrooms and maybe expand the existing plan slightly to accommodate this. Should I bring this up at this meeting or leave it until we get step one i.e transfer first ?
    Thanks all for any advice. P


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ironmonkey wrote: »
    Hi all I m new here so forgive any obvious questions. I'm looking to transfer the planning on an existing site to us. I think we should satisfy local needs criteria. I have arranged a meeting with the planner for two weeks time.
    1. What should I bring to the meeting. Would it be worth bringing a short overview as to why we think we meet the requirements?

    2. My second question is with regard to the existing planning building. It is a dormer style building with 3 bedrooms c2000 sq ft. We would want to change the layout out to make 4 bedrooms and maybe expand the existing plan slightly to accommodate this. Should I bring this up at this meeting or leave it until we get step one i.e transfer first ?
    Thanks all for any advice. P

    first off, just be aware that this meeting is nothing more than "a chat" with a planner. there will be no decisions made at it. so with that in mind...

    1. 'local needs' differ greatly from county to county... with some counties being very very prescriptive as to what amounts to meeting the requirement where other counties are less restrictive. All you can do is explain your situation to the planner and they can tell you if you should meet the requirement or not. They can also advise you of the documentation you would need to prove what you say. Also, you say "transfer" so are you an immediate family member of the current planning permission applicant? if not, and your purchasing the site, you should be purchasing subject to obtaining permission.

    2. if 1 goes well, then yes you should bring up the 'change of house design' that you intend to do. The planner will probably direct you to the county rural design guidelines, or the cork rural design guidelines that most county's base their own on. It would be no harm to have a photo or picture of the 'general idea' of what youd like to propose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭ironmonkey


    Cheers Syd thanks for the info. We are not a relative but neighbours of the family who have planning they have the site for sale with planning. I'm hopeful that the planner can give us a direction in terms of the process and that we would meet the local needs in a similar manner that planning was originally granted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Hi, our place is down the end of a lane which is privately owned (we have a right of way over it) and we own no roadside property. Where is it acceptable for us to put up the planning notice signs? Obviously one on our gate, but isn't one required on the road too? The trouble is our neighbour who owns the roadside part has specifically told us that they don't want any signage or notifications there and have taken planning notice signs down previously for another neighbour who lives down the lane. Any ideas much appreciated!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Thanks- what then happens if they keep taking the notices down which they said they would (and did before)? The council will presumably keep marking the applications invalid and I'm guessing the Gardai would consider it a civil matter?
    Angry bird wrote: »
    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    summereire wrote: »
    Thanks- what then happens if they keep taking the notices down which they said they would (and did before)? The council will presumably keep marking the applications invalid and I'm guessing the Gardai would consider it a civil matter?
    Angry bird wrote: »
    Must be one at the junction of the lane and public road and on site but don't stick it on a gate. Your neighbour should not be taking down such public notices. Take a pic of both site notices put up and send in with your application. As soon as you see one down, ring the guards and get a reference number off them and send a copy of this into the Council. Obviously you don't have to name names and keep putting up the site notice which must be in place for the 5 week observation period. Once this is up, take the site notices away.

    The Council I work for will accept the Garda reference number and often let's the applicant know when the site will be inspected so that the applicant can make sure the notice is in place. You can only to your best with it and these situations arise regularly enough. Maybe ring your local council and see what they advise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭vixdname


    Hi all, Long story short:

    Farmer builds large agri shed
    He also applies for planning permission to build a new mini farm attraction up his land away from the shed.
    The planning permission applied for states that while the new mini farm is being constructed, the large agri shed will be only used as a reception and toilet facility and once the main mini farm is built this agri shed will return to being staff toilet and storage only.
    Farmer never builds new mini farm but now uses this agri shed a his main commercial premises holding music events, parties and other activities and never reverts it back to what its planning permission granted.
    Is this farmer in breach of his permission and can these activities be stopped ???? Permission was granted in 2008

    Would like to know what you guys and gals think ? Thanks a mil.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Report to LA

    wait and see


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Planning permission required which he does not have. Send a written complaint to the council planning enforcement section. Result, he has to cease the unauthorised use or obtain planning permission for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 kidsbo


    Planning Permission - Local Authority House

    Does anyone know from what year Local Authority housing required planning permission. I understand there was a period after the introduction of the 1963 Planning Act during which permission was not required for Local Authority housing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    kidsbo wrote: »
    Planning Permission - Local Authority House

    Does anyone know from what year Local Authority housing required planning permission. I understand there was a period after the introduction of the 1963 Planning Act during which permission was not required for Local Authority housing.

    From March 2002 (if my memory serves me properly) but it's not a 'normal' planning application when a Local Authority is doing it for it's own housing. It is normally done under a Part 8 application, process as follows:

    A site notice is put up at the site and a newspaper advertisement is placed in an appropriate newspaper. Plans and particulars are put on public display for 6 weeks and public submissions for a period of 2 weeks after the display period. Following receipt of submissions, the Chief Executive prepares a report recommending whether or not the proposal should proceed. A Part 8 report is then sent to the Planning and Development Department who must issue a decision within 2 weeks.

    The Part 8 report is then brought to Planning Committee to agree the proposal at local level. The Chief Executive then issues approval for Part 8 development. The council must issue a decision on the Part 8 development application within 6 weeks of Chief Executive approval of the Part 8 application. The application must be passed by the full council.

    It is also worth noting that under Part 8 there is no appeal process to An Bord Pleanala.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 kidsbo


    Brilliant - thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭GenuineFan


    My son has applied for planning permission. The council have looked for further information. He had a meeting with the council and they mentioned a Section 47 on an adjoining piece of land. This adjoining piece of land is in my name and is way too small to build a house on. It does have road frontage but the land at the rear is owned by a farmer and has nothing to do with us. The piece of land we own is long and narrow with road frontage. My son had to buy a piece of land off the farmer in order to make a site. The Council are now saying we either sign a Section 47 on a small piece of land that nobody can build on (because it is too small), or resubmit planning application incorporating this piece in my son's site. Can they put a clause in my son's planning permission (if he gets it) that he is restricted to what he can do with the extra piece of land?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    GenuineFan wrote: »
    My son has applied for planning permission. The council have looked for further information. He had a meeting with the council and they mentioned a Section 47 on an adjoining piece of land. This adjoining piece of land is in my name and is way too small to build a house on. It does have road frontage but the land at the rear is owned by a farmer and has nothing to do with us. The piece of land we own is long and narrow with road frontage. My son had to buy a piece of land off the farmer in order to make a site. The Council are now saying we either sign a Section 47 on a small piece of land that nobody can build on (because it is too small), or resubmit planning application incorporating this piece in my son's site. Can they put a clause in my son's planning permission (if he gets it) that he is restricted to what he can do with the extra piece of land?

    What is to stop you getting a piece of ground from the farmer at the rear and adding it to your piece of ground to make a site?

    It is obvious that that's the scenario the LA are trying to stop. The LA can put a requirement for a Section 47 as a condition of a planning permission. They can also refuse a planning application.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,725 ✭✭✭Metric Tensor


    Why do you want to avoid signing the section 47 for this piece of land?

    The only reason would be if you saw some way it might get build on or benefit you to be built on in future.

    This is what the council are trying to stop.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Simple enough, sign it or include the portion of land within the site, with farmers permission, which would constitute significant further information and will need to eb re-advertised. Easier to sign the thing, you don't own the piece of land anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Hiya, I am trying to understand if planning permission or retention is more appropriate for a mobile building that has been in place for the past few decades but which we have recently been told does not have planning permission (it was placed by the previous owner and we thought it did).

    Presumably if we leave it in place then retention is correct? What though if we want to move it to a different part of the property, is that then retention or planning?

    One other related question- is it possible to submit more than one planning or retention application at the same time? I.e. if we are still trying to decide which configuration to go with can we apply for multiple versions, to get the process underway while we research, and then go with the one that works best?

    Thanks!


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    summereire wrote: »

    1. Hiya, I am trying to understand if planning permission or retention is more appropriate for a mobile building that has been in place for the past few decades but which we have recently been told does not have planning permission (it was placed by the previous owner and we thought it did).

    2. Presumably if we leave it in place then retention is correct?

    3. What though if we want to move it to a different part of the property, is that then retention or planning?

    4. One other related question- is it possible to submit more than one planning or retention application at the same time? I.e.

    5. if we are still trying to decide which configuration to go with can we apply for multiple versions, to get the process underway while we research, and then go with the one that works best?

    Thanks!

    1. Retention
    2. Yes
    3. Planning
    4. Yes
    5. Yes but that's typically what your arch/planning advisor will tease out in advance of any application


  • Registered Users Posts: 299 ✭✭summereire


    Thanks, I appreciate that. If we are making multiple applications are they literally just the same planning or retention process repeated, i.e. more than one notice placed etc as if they were separate applications, rather than a single combined application?

    Also does each application need to holistic and specify what happens in the rest of the property- i.e. if we show the building new located at the new point X on the planning application should we also indicate that it is no longer at point Y?

    BryanF wrote: »
    1. Retention
    2. Yes
    3. Planning
    4. Yes
    5. Yes but that's typically what your arch/planning advisor will tease out in advance of any application


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    summereire wrote: »
    Thanks, I appreciate that

    1. If we are making multiple applications are they literally just the same planning or retention process repeated, i.e.

    2. more than one notice placed etc as if they were separate applications, rather than a single combined application?

    3. Also does each application need to holistic and specify what happens in the rest of the property- i.e.
    4. if we show the building new located at the new point X on the planning application should we also indicate that it is no longer at point Y?
    This is a pointless conversation and one best had with whoever you engage to solve your specific planning requirements

    1. They are separate submissions of all relevant info
    2. 2nd notice will be a different colour
    3. Yes
    4. Yes


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Brois


    Hello,

    Wondering if anyone here could help me understand the planning laws and an application.

    Looking for a change of use for an industrial Unit in Co.Kerry.

    At first it appeared the unit was zoned as "Retail" use, but now it seems the place is zoned as "Wholesale Industrial".

    We are looking to change the use to a gym. Anyone see any potential issues with a change of use from this Wholesale Industrial to a gym? Seems there would have been no issues if unit was retail, but could be some snags if its wholesale...
    Any advice is welcome thanks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 kidsbo


    Planning Advice - Significant Further Information

    Can anybody help me with this:

    How long does the Council have to respond to submission of a response to a Request For Significant Further Information? I thought it was 4 weeks but the Council say 8 because the response included an NIS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Have the Council said what section or the act or article of the regs that says 8 weeks re NIS?


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kidsbo wrote: »
    Planning Advice - Significant Further Information

    Can anybody help me with this:

    How long does the Council have to respond to submission of a response to a Request For Significant Further Information? I thought it was 4 weeks but the Council say 8 because the response included an NIS.

    probably because they will request a readvertising under "significant further information" so the likely timescale from the submission of Further information to decision would be approx 8 weeks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    It's the NIS that triggers the 8 weeks, have come across it before but couldn't find where it says that when I had a quick look.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 kidsbo


    The Council requested Significant Further Information in the form of an NIS. On submission of the NIS the Council stated that they had 8 weeks (rather than the usual 4 weeks) to consider the NIS. Firstly, are they correct in that regard?

    Having considered the NIS the Council then issued another request for Further Information. Their letter clearly states that this is not a Request For Clarification but a whole new Request For Further Information. Their position is that the submission of Significant Further Information rendered the application a fresh application. This doesn't seem right to me. Also the new request for Further Information raises issues not raised in the initial request for Further Significant Information and not related to the NIS that was submitted. I think the Council has erred. Can anyone advise?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Seems odd alright but preferable to a refusal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭VonVix


    Hopefully this is the right place to post. Myself and my other half are hoping to move to a detached house with roughly 0.5 acres. Will we need planning permission when it comes to building a fenced in area within our property? The fencing is mainly for secure containment of our dogs to keep them safe when they want to run about or play, specifically one in particular who is a large athletic breed. We would hope for something 5ft tall roughly speaking. We haven't thought into how the fencing will be built to ensure secure containment, however.

    It's our first time ever considering doing something like this, so please excuse me if I have left out important information. :o

    [Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    VonVix wrote: »
    Hopefully this is the right place to post. Myself and my other half are hoping to move to a detached house with roughly 0.5 acres. Will we need planning permission when it comes to building a fenced in area within our property? The fencing is mainly for secure containment of our dogs to keep them safe when they want to run about or play, specifically one in particular who is a large athletic breed. We would hope for something 5ft tall roughly speaking. We haven't thought into how the fencing will be built to ensure secure containment, however.

    It's our first time ever considering doing something like this, so please excuse me if I have left out important information. :o

    I'd doubt it. Fencing could hardly be classed as a permanent structure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭VonVix


    lawred2 wrote: »
    I'd doubt it. Fencing could hardly be classed as a permanent structure.

    Even if it was something as "heavy duty" like this? http://www.outdoordecorcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/garden-fencing-3.jpg

    Rather than something like this?

    [Dog Training + Behaviour Nerd]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    VonVix wrote: »
    Even if it was something as "heavy duty" like this? http://www.outdoordecorcentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/garden-fencing-3.jpg

    Rather than something like this?

    It still wouldn't take long to decommission a garden fence...

    It's not a permanent structure


  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭lillycakes2


    Does anyone know, does the planning authority still accept land sterilization? (when looking for planning in the case of an area /piece of land within a ribbon development area).
    I am looking for planning permission in an area of ribbon development, but because of new policy regulations regarding "gap site" in my county development plan, I may have a chance of building where i want to as i fit all the other criteria etc.
    The Gap site, however is 2 acres, So i am hoping they will still agree that this is a gap site , or perhaps, i wonder would they look at allowing me my site in the piece of land i want along with a sterilization agreement on the other acre of the field. I want to build beside my family home, but the space between the my family house and the next neighbors house is 2 acres. Has anyone any knowledge on this kind of thing ?

    I feel like i will be old and grey by the time i ever get planning !!


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Does anyone know, does the planning authority still accept land sterilization? (when looking for planning in the case of an area /piece of land within a ribbon development area).
    I am looking for planning permission in an area of ribbon development, but because of new policy regulations regarding "gap site" in my county development plan, I may have a chance of building where i want to as i fit all the other criteria etc.
    The Gap site, however is 2 acres, So i am hoping they will still agree that this is a gap site , or perhaps, i wonder would they look at allowing me my site in the piece of land i want along with a sterilization agreement on the other acre of the field. I want to build beside my family home, but the space between the my family house and the next neighbors house is 2 acres. Has anyone any knowledge on this kind of thing ?

    I feel like i will be old and grey by the time i ever get planning !!

    why dont you just make the site the whole 2 acres?

    if its family farming land, just fence off what you want and allow the rest to be farmed


  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭lillycakes2


    My first cousin owns the land and said he would give me what i need to satisfy council. Would it satisfy them if i bought the 2 acres - which would then be a gap site i wonder??Or else we were going to look at the option of going for one acre and get the other acre sterilized ??

    thank you for replying !!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 309 ✭✭lillycakes2


    Any views/replies on my query would be hugely appreciated !!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 808 ✭✭✭Angry bird


    Potential to create an infill site, and another dwelling or maybe more. Depends on what's there already. I would seek a pre-planning meeting with the local planner, there should be info on the Council website, planning section re this.


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