Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

themont85 · 17-07-2016 02:47AM

There is nothing in that Facebook post of real value.

He has accused a dead man of being a paedophile and it fits into a half baked narrative he's come up for Phillip Cairns. It's ironic given that he and others have been saying how convenient it is that Eamonn Cooke became a suspect only when he was dead.

For such a long winded post, everything connected to Phillip Cairns is pure speculation.

I'm not saying he's wrong, I'll keep an open mind, but I find it staggering that GOC is just willing to throw out anything to do with Eamonn Cooke as invalid and go with this.

It amazes me that he (and a few other investigative journalists) get such high praise in the comments below their pieces. It's like people are reading it as the truth when all it is is speculation. These people fall into the trap that they accuse others of doing so with the "MSM", just eating it up blind because it's written in such an earnest and dramatic fashion.

Going Forward · 17-07-2016 09:48AM

themont85 wrote: »

There is nothing in that Facebook post of real value.

He has accused a dead man of being a paedophile and it fits into a half baked narrative he's come up for Phillip Cairns. It's ironic given that he and others have been saying how convenient it is that Eamonn Cooke became a suspect only when he was dead.

For such a long winded post, everything connected to Phillip Cairns is pure speculation.

I'm not saying he's wrong, I'll keep an open mind, but I find it staggering that GOC is just willing to throw out anything to do with Eamonn Cooke as invalid and go with this.

It amazes me that he (and a few other investigative journalists) get such high praise in the comments below their pieces. It's like people are reading it as the truth when all it is is speculation. These people fall into the trap that they accuse others of doing so with the "MSM", just eating it up blind because it's written in such an earnest and dramatic fashion.

It sounds far more plausible than pinning it on Cooke to me.
The Catholic church may be seen by some as a convenient focus, but it is deservedly so.
Not so much with Cooke and any connection to Philip.

He was a quiet religious boy, from a religious family.

He would have been a prime target for a a religious suspect, whereas he would have been a completely random victim of Cooke's AFAIK, and the wrong gender.

Any word on the DNA test on the schoolbag I wonder?

Kamili · 17-07-2016 10:11AM

I knew the priest in question and find it very hard to believe.

themont85 · 17-07-2016 10:35AM

Going Forward wrote: »

It sounds far more plausible than pinning it on Cooke to me.
The Catholic church may be seen by some as a convenient focus, but it is deservedly so.
Not so much with Cooke and any connection to Philip.

He was a quiet religious boy, from a religious family.

He would have been a prime target for a a religious suspect, whereas he would have been a completely random victim of Cooke's AFAIK, and the wrong gender.

Any word on the DNA test on the schoolbag I wonder?

"Plausible" is just him crafting a neat little narrative together for social media.

I don't think anyone definately said that Eamonn Cooke did it- just there was a lead in the case with some actual eye witness accounts.

GOC has none of that. He has his opinions.

Ritchi · 17-07-2016 11:19AM

Cairns was in a different parish, and went to a different school, not sure this adds up. It's entirely plausible that he was a pedo, but it seems unlikely he had a connection to Cairns.

Going Forward · 17-07-2016 11:32AM

themont85 wrote: »

"Plausible" is just him crafting a neat little narrative together for social media.

I don't think anyone definately said that Eamonn Cooke did it- just there was a lead in the case with some actual eye witness accounts.

GOC has none of that. He has his opinions.

No one has certainty. But I'm more inclined to believe Philip was not murdered by someone who seems to have had no other connection to him.

But back to GOC. His theory looses credibility because he is over egging it.

He flatly claims that Fr. Touhy was an active paedophile.

"As soon as Fr Tuohy had settled into life in his new parish he started to abuse young boys."

He states that as a fact. No precondition such as "it is believed", "I believe", etc.

However open anyone can be to the overall theory of a religious angle, blatantly trying to turn a hunch into a fact does bring the rest of it into question.

Anyone reading it would easily be of the assumption that this priest was a proven, convicted paedophile, which is not the case.

I assumed he was, because of how he says it as a matter of fact, until I reread it and searched for a conviction.

Stasi 2.0 · 17-07-2016 12:18PM

Going Forward wrote: »

and the wrong gender

The notion that Cooke was solely interested in Girls has already been debunked.

Samaris · 17-07-2016 01:49PM

I'm highly dubious of his assertations if there was never any evidence against this Fr. Touhy. Usually I'd go research the whole thing, but I just cba right now, could anyone tell me if there's even been any allegations previously against the man?

I'm also a bit dubious as to how this reporter appears to be seeing retroactive paedophilies up every tree in Dublin. It -happens-, yes, and just sometimes people can group together and use each other for protection while getting away with their crimes, but...I'd like to hear of some sort of evidence remotely backing up the idea of this paedophile network of multiple rings across Dublin as he appears to be implying. Was there something in the water in the 80s?

Finally, this Fr. Touhy is dead, and by the nature of his profession, is very vulnerable to accusations of paedophilia. Also by the nature of his profession, he had no wife or children that might still be alive to refute such accusations. A quick google search for "allegations against Fr. Patrick Touhy Dublin" turns up nothing on his name, at least. It's not technically legal slander, since he's dead, but I can't say this "journalist's" account sits well with me. It's very full of assertions and very low on evidence.

A couple of people have said they knew Fr. Touhy and this is shocking to them. I'd be very cautious about letting it colour your knowledge of the man while there's nothing more than this guy's rather inventive narrative to support it.

Fleawuss · 17-07-2016 02:41PM

Samaris wrote: »

I'm highly dubious of his assertations if there was never any evidence against this Fr. Touhy. Usually I'd go research the whole thing, but I just cba right now, could anyone tell me if there's even been any allegations previously against the man?

I'm also a bit dubious as to how this reporter appears to be seeing retroactive paedophilies up every tree in Dublin. It -happens-, yes, and just sometimes people can group together and use each other for protection while getting away with their crimes, but...I'd like to hear of some sort of evidence remotely backing up the idea of this paedophile network of multiple rings across Dublin as he appears to be implying. Was there something in the water in the 80s?

Finally, this Fr. Touhy is dead, and by the nature of his profession, is very vulnerable to accusations of paedophilia. Also by the nature of his profession, he had no wife or children that might still be alive to refute such accusations. A quick google search for "allegations against Fr. Patrick Touhy Dublin" turns up nothing on his name, at least. It's not technically legal slander, since he's dead, but I can't say this "journalist's" account sits well with me. It's very full of assertions and very low on evidence.

A couple of people have said they knew Fr. Touhy and this is shocking to them. I'd be very cautious about letting it colour your knowledge of the man while there's nothing more than this guy's rather inventive narrative to support it.

The GOC article is overdone in the naming of individuals with such certainty. However, it is based on what a lot of people who have looked at this case believe to be reasonable assumptions: Philip was taken by someone who knew him and someone who had assistance. There are also certain local suspicions that have floated around the case. As I said, he goes too far.

The whole case is waiting for the renewed investigation to bear fruit. The thread started on 10 June about 4 weeks ago. Lets wait and see.

Libel btw is written. Slander is spoken.

Billy86 · 17-07-2016 02:56PM

Kamili wrote: »

Well I call bull on this one..

Funny how the priest he names in his second post is listed as Parish priest which was found by an online search, and returned by the first hit.

http://www.annunciationrathfarnham.com/our_parish.html

I was about 3 months old when he went missing and grew up just beside St. Enda's Park; a 5-6ft away and 100-odd metre from Colaiste Eanna where most of my friends went to school. Most also went to St. Mary's boys school in the 90s, right beside that church, and ever since I was a kid that is exactly where you would go to get the bus into town. Between that and going to the village as a kid (especially to Liams for a haircut or Cascarino's, now the Village Takeaway or Aprile's or something).

The paranoia about white vans in Rathfarnham was severe the whole way through the 90s. I think there were a few other incidents of people trying to abduct kids, but am not 100% as it could have been playground hearsay (though parents strongly warned as much too, could have been lingerinng paranoia over Philip Cairns).

It's just chilling given that I passed right by there on an almost daily since I was young. Happens too often with this case too, I also used to always pass through Anne Devlin Drive/Avenue on the way back from secondary school too. Don't think I knew that was the exact spot he went missing at the time either, but can't fully remember.

It's weird too, there are a lot of churches and such in the area - Ballyroan, Whitechurch, Loreto (not a church true, but...), the Augustinians home* also by Whitechurch, the protestant one in the village, etc etc . But, probably due to the fact that it's front gates are flanked by low hanging trees, it is across from the street from the Yellow House pub which gives it an odd/shadowy lighting at night (and nothing else either side of it to offset the lighting), it always just seemed by to kids in the area to be by far the creepiest church in the area (along with another protestant one on a winding road in the direction of the mountains). Doesn't mean anything of course, but it's just a bit eerie if you grew up in the area and always felt uneasy around that church alone, as a kid.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/53131674.jpg - that yellow-ish wall on the very side is where the Yellow House is.

Going Forward · 17-07-2016 03:03PM

Fleawuss wrote: »

The GOC article is overdone in the naming of individuals with such certainty. However, it is based on what a lot of people who have looked at this case believe to be reasonable assumptions: Philip was taken by someone who knew him and someone who had assistance. There are also certain local suspicions that have floated around the case. As I said, he goes too far.

The whole case is waiting for the renewed investigation to bear fruit. The thread started on 10 June about 4 weeks ago. Lets wait and see.

Libel btw is written. Slander is spoken.

Not to derail the thread but many reading this thread will know of the Lorcan Bale case.

He was a Dublin teenager murderer proficient in the "black arts".

At a time of no internet, heavy state censorship and general introversion, he had to have been schooled in his hobby by similarly inclined adults, he didn't pick up this proclivity by himself. Yet to this day no one knows anything more than that about that aspect.

And that was in 1973.

It is no stretch to suggest that cult/paedophile "rings" expanded rather contracted in the intervening years.

And to think that Philip became prey to one.

Billy86 · 17-07-2016 03:04PM

Ritchi wrote: »

Cairns was in a different parish, and went to a different school, not sure this adds up. It's entirely plausible that he was a pedo, but it seems unlikely he had a connection to Cairns.

Good point, never made communion or confirmation or really even ever went to church outside of weddings, christenings and funerals so I couldn't be sure, the Annunciation covers St Mary's Boys School if I am right, with Ballyroan Boys School (primary) and Colaiste Eanna (secondary) linked to the parish in Ballyroan which is about halfway between the schools and Rathfarnham shopping centre.

HS3 · 17-07-2016 06:44PM

I read this earlier. I don't know what to be making of it all. One minute it's Cooke, next minute it's a parish priest who killed him to stop him speaking out. Allegedly there was a pedo ring in Rathfarnham, apparently there was one in Dalkey too. If someone killed him out of viciousness and did it in such a way so that no one knows what happened or where his remains are, why did they leave the bag in the laneway ? Why not just dump them with the body? There's nothing to say Philip was abused. Just seems like more heartache for the family.

Dice75 · 17-07-2016 08:35PM

HS3 wrote: »

I read this earlier. I don't know what to be making of it all. One minute it's Cooke, next minute it's a parish priest who killed him to stop him speaking out. Allegedly there was a pedo ring in Rathfarnham, apparently there was one in Dalkey too. If someone killed him out of viciousness and did it in such a way so that no one knows what happened or where his remains are, why did they leave the bag in the laneway ? Why not just dump them with the body? There's nothing to say Philip was abused. Just seems like more heartache for the family.

Nothing except Gareth O' Callaghans Facebook post.

He says he has all these witness statements/information and puts it up on Facebook. Has he gone to he Gardai? Has he gone to whoever is overseeing the case? He claims there are statements locked away in Rathfarnam Garda Station of people naming those in his paedophile ring who carried out the abuse in the area.

I have no idea how much truth is in his claims but I sincerely hope a conclusion is forthcoming for the family in the near future. If O'Callaghan has genuinely unlocked the truth I would certainly pat him on the back.

Allyall · 17-07-2016 08:54PM

Gareth O'Callaghan - quick to forgive the paedophile who abused him as a child.
https://www.facebook.com/gareth.ocallaghan.1/posts/545045125643288:0
Yet he carries a torch for all of the other poor victims out there.. :rolleyes:

Why doesn't he name his own abuser?
He's quick to name the Priest that he believes abused Philip Cairns and other people since 1973, "as soon as he settled into life in his new parish he started to abuse young boys"..
That's quite a massive statement to make, while also taking information from other people, and keeping quiet himself.

HS3 · 17-07-2016 09:08PM

Dice75 wrote: »

Nothing except Gareth O' Callaghans Facebook post.

He says he has all these witness statements/information and puts it up on Facebook. Has he gone to he Gardai? Has he gone to whoever is overseeing the case? He claims there are statements locked away in Rathfarnam Garda Station of people naming those in his paedophile ring who carried out the abuse in the area.

I have no idea how much truth is in his claims but I sincerely hope a conclusion is forthcoming for the family in the near future. If O'Callaghan has genuinely unlocked the truth I would certainly pat him on the back.

If it gets to the truth absolutely I would pat him on the back. But there are so many twists and turns in this. Its like it's being sensationalised now and GOC is fuelling it. It's like those posts on Facebook where a picture goes viral claiming the person in it has been up to no good. Posting it on fb does not solve any thing. If O'Callaghan believes a Rathfarnham pedophile ring killed Philip and there are files in Rathfarnham GS that would help, or that would even help the kids who made the complaints, don't post about it on fb, use your 'celebrity' status to get some investigation in motion. Maybe I'm being harsh on O'Callaghan but I'm so sick of hearing of these allegations of pedophile rings in Dublin and the absolute terror they caused, they get a bit of limelight in the media and then it dies down until the next time someone speaks out. I would love for the truth to come out.

themont85 · 17-07-2016 09:47PM

Lets discount the Cooke thing for a moment (and that is actually a lead, with a genuine witness coming forward, compared to here).

Let's also give GOC's general theory some credence for a second.

GOC's theory is that there were a number of men involved, do people believe that several men would orchestrate the schoolbag to be in a laneway? I would think that it would be highly unlikely that any "paedophile ring", as horrible a group as that would be, would take that step. Leaving that bag there was a risk someone took with police & the public out searching for him. It's the kind of action that one person would take either for the thrill or to throw someone off the scent. That's why the Gards have long thought a child may have been put up to it by someone. With 3 or more adults involved, I would think that it would be less likely that such a risk would have been taken.

Billy86 · 17-07-2016 09:53PM

GOC's theory is that there were a number of men involved, do people believe that several men would orchestrate the schoolbag to be in a laneway? I would think that it would be highly unlikely that any "paedophile ring", as horrible a group as that would be, would take that step. Leaving that bag there was a risk someone took with police & the public out searching for him. It's the kind of action that one person would take either for the thrill or to throw someone off the scent. That's why the Gards have long thought a child may have been put up to it by someone. With 3 or more adults involved, I would think that it would be less likely that such a risk would have been taken.

Perhaps, but if true, the just look at how well that risk/gamble paid off (up until the last few weeks/months).

HS3 · 17-07-2016 09:55PM

themont85 wrote: »

Lets discount the Cooke thing for a moment (and that is actually a lead, with a genuine witness coming forward, compared to here).

Let's also give GOC's general theory some credence for a second.

GOC's theory is that there were a number of men involved, do people believe that several men would orchestrate the schoolbag to be in a laneway? I would think that it would be highly unlikely that any "paedophile ring", as horrible a group as that would be, would take that step. Leaving that bag there was a risk someone took with police & the public out searching for him. It's the kind of action that one person would take either for the thrill or to throw someone off the scent. That's why the Gards have long thought a child may have been put up to it by someone. With 3 or more adults involved, I would think that it would be less likely that such a risk would have been taken.

The bag is what makes me wonder whether it was just an accident and the guilt made them give some thing back to the family. I don't think a pedophile ring, or even Cooke would care to put the bag in the laneway.

themont85 · 17-07-2016 10:04PM

Billy86 wrote: »

GOC's theory is that there were a number of men involved, do people believe that several men would orchestrate the schoolbag to be in a laneway? I would think that it would be highly unlikely that any "paedophile ring", as horrible a group as that would be, would take that step. Leaving that bag there was a risk someone took with police & the public out searching for him. It's the kind of action that one person would take either for the thrill or to throw someone off the scent. That's why the Gards have long thought a child may have been put up to it by someone. With 3 or more adults involved, I would think that it would be less likely that such a risk would have been taken.

Perhaps, but if true, the just look at how well that risk/gamble paid off (up until the last few weeks/months).[/QUOTE]

What risk/gamble? It was a no win for 3 men trying to get rid of incriminating evidence. The boy goes missing without a trace and then his schoolbag shows up, it's the type of thing that an idiot would do to try and throw the police off some lead OR some whack job would do for kicks.

There are far more logical ways to dispose of a bag. 3 adults thinking together, are highly unlikely to take that risk. If one of them was a Gard (as alleged), even less so.

If GOC is going to try and pick holes in fresh actual evidence put forward, then his "theories" should be scrutinised.

Going Forward · 17-07-2016 10:52PM

HS3 wrote: »

The bag is what makes me wonder whether it was just an accident and the guilt made them give some thing back to the family. I don't think a pedophile ring, or even Cooke would care to put the bag in the laneway.

What kind of accidental behaviour ends in death/disappearance?

Allyall · 17-07-2016 11:45PM

There is also the possibility that whomever put the bag back, did so to confuse or redirect the investigation.

For me, it's highly unlikely a 13 year old ran away from home, and a week later went back to put his bag there to let his family know that he's okay.
(I don't think anyone ever implied that may be the case, but I'm purposely using that as a point).
Anybody may have done that for any number of reasons. To confuse, hinder or redirect the investigation, or out of guilt, or possibly it was just delayed getting back there etc..
I personally find many of them too risky.
The "guilt" theory rings most likely for me, but like everyone else I haven't a clue.
I hope that the family get some sort of closure soon. Anyone left, or proof of anyone that may have been involved may coming to the end of their/its life.

Fleawuss · 18-07-2016 12:26AM

The bag is the oddity. If the Cooke version is true then he ran the risk of getting a child to leave it back in some sick idea.

If the Cooke thing isn't true ( and it would be extraordinary if it wasn't at this stage) then it's either another sick idea or fear. The question then is what triggered the fear.

Billy86 · 18-07-2016 12:47AM

themont85 wrote: »

What risk/gamble? It was a no win for 3 men trying to get rid of incriminating evidence. The boy goes missing without a trace and then his schoolbag shows up, it's the type of thing that an idiot would do to try and throw the police off some lead OR some whack job would do for kicks.

I'm not saying it was or wasn't the case, but my point is that if the emboldened text is the reason why they did it, it worked out for them. I was only born a few months before it happened, but from what I know it's not as if the Gards were high on a) forensic technology or b) just general competence, at the time.

Forensic technology has at least improved over the last 30 years.

LorMal · 18-07-2016 07:44AM

GOC being called out by the Indo this morning. That should shut him up.

intheclouds · 18-07-2016 07:47AM

LorMal wrote: »

GOC being called out by the Indo this morning. That should shut him up.

You've really got to wonder at his motives. I feel like he is torturing Phillips mother with some of what he is spouting.

LorMal · 18-07-2016 08:21AM

intheclouds wrote: »

You've really got to wonder at his motives. I feel like he is torturing Phillips mother with some of what he is spouting.

It is odd behaviour. I hope he is okay. He would really be wise to stop commenting on this case.

Kamili · 18-07-2016 08:32AM

LorMal wrote: »

GOC being called out by the Indo this morning. That should shut him up.

link

Mr O’Callaghan said he has been contacted by a “number of people” who have given him information about the disappearance of Philip – but did not say how many people contacted him about the case.

“I don’t want to divulge much about the information that is coming forward because it’s private – some of it is very detailed. These are people who clearly have held back for a very long time,” he said.
“Where do I take it? I don’t know because it has been given to me on strict guarantee that it’s confidential.

So confidential that he would rather blurb it all over BookFace instead of going to the Gardaí..

Something doesn't add up with that at all sorry.

Dice75 · 18-07-2016 09:08AM

intheclouds wrote: »

You've really got to wonder at his motives. I feel like he is torturing Phillips mother with some of what he is spouting.

LorMal wrote: »

It is odd behaviour. I hope he is okay. He would really be wise to stop commenting on this case.

Did I not read he is a relation of the Cairns'?

Kamili · 18-07-2016 09:09AM

Dice75 wrote: »

Did I not read he is a relation of the Cairns'?

He claims they have the same great grandfather I think. Philip's mother has said she has never met him.

Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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