Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1

Billy86 · 15-07-2016 07:49PM

jmayo wrote: »

I wouldn't be crowing too much.
Ever read Tarek Fatah author of Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State.
He is founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress and served as its communications officer and spokesperson for several years.
Fatah advocates gay rights, a separation of religion and state, opposition to sharia law, and advocacy for a "liberal, progressive form" of Islam.

Now this same guy has raised "the issue of Islamic clerics using mosque sermons to attack the foundational principles of Western civilization and liberal secular democracy."
He was accused by Liberal senator Grant Mitchell that he was motivated by Islamophobia.
Yep a Pakistani born muslim is islamophobic.

Actually one very apt statement he has made which is very important in light of discussions here on modernising islam is the following:

Fatah is fairly interesting with some good opinions - I personally like that speaks his mind and tends to be quite open and genuine in what he says. The world could use more like him in many senses. I agree with him on a number of issues, not least of all that the US & CIA had a very significant hand in the rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

That said, he does appear to have a chip on his shoulder at times. He left the NDP claiming it was becoming 'flooded' with Islamic fundamentalists to join Labour, and after his favoured guy lost a leadership battle he did he left them too, trying to cite the exact same thing. Some also question if he really still is Muslim as he doesn't attend a mosque (fair enough, can be lapsed) but also encourages parents not to take their children to them either. At times he can be quite OTT as well, such as when he called the Reviving the Islamic Spirit attendees, all 30,000 of them, Islamists - it's not like they are some fringe group, Trudeau was scheduled to speak at the event. He tends to throw that label around very freely to those he disagrees with, to be honest. Some of that kind of carry on is always going to cause ill sentiment, and I would argue it played a role in the comment Mitchell apparently made. Then again, most in public/governance/etc roles are prone to that kind of posturing and carry on (see: Mitchell's comments), so I'd consider it worth noting but not a reason to discredit entirely or anything of the sort.

To try and show that his opinion means there is some large issue with Islamism in Toronto though, is kind of flawed. And to try and claim Mitchell calling him an Islamophobe as evidence of there being some large issue with Islamism in Toronto, is also flawed. And you'll find plenty of actual Islamophobes who will try to claim he is not Muslim because he doesn't fit into their stereotypical view of being regressive, homophobic, etc... some people on boards have expressed similar opinions, I think even going so far as to say if Muslims are not terrorists or terrorist sympathisers, then they are not Muslim.

RasTa · 15-07-2016 07:50PM

inforfun wrote: »

In my life i have been on holidays in France about 10 times.
I have French colleagues at work

Number of holidays i had in Iraq > 0
Number of Iraqi colleagues > 0

Do you mind i care more about what happens in France than what happens in Baghdad?

Strange way of looking at terrorism imo.

MarinersBlues · 15-07-2016 07:57PM

inforfun wrote: »

In my life i have been on holidays in France about 10 times.
I have French colleagues at work

Number of holidays i had in Iraq > 0
Number of Iraqi colleagues > 0

Do you mind i care more about what happens in France than what happens in Baghdad?

> = greater than

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 08:11PM

conorhal wrote: »

Congratulations, you have reached virtue signaller level 10! Give youself a 100 facebook likes as a reward.

So you don't like balance in discussions eh?

Lavinia · 15-07-2016 08:14PM

So far as I've read it seems this individual acted on his own??
Does anyone believe in that?

No motive has yet been claimed for this, no one claims the responsibility etc..

Can it be??

inforfun · 15-07-2016 08:14PM

MarinersBlues wrote: »

> = greater than

---->

I have edited especially for you.

Better?

Skullface McGubbin · 15-07-2016 08:15PM

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 08:15PM

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

This is something I wrote on another message board:

... A war not predicated on religion or freedom or terror insofar as western media would like you to believe so much as it is centred around the coercive redistribution of wealth since 1908. Strange how Saddam nationalised the oil fields in 1972, yet in 2006 it was announced that they were going up for market auction in the hopes of attracting international bidders, as the oil fields needed more advanced technology and more experienced technicians in order to extract maximum utility. Stranger still how all six companies that won the bid were American. This is a more recent example but such practises have been imposed by the west by over a century. Make no mistake, the 'terror' will not end as long as the west act as profiteers of the Middle East, and live the lavish life style the oil field residences have been deprived of...

Yes, there is the Islamic State-promised caliphate and general hatred of countries that do not fall under Sharia law, propagated by the rich and exposed to the poor who, growing up and culturally conditioned by constant anti-western propaganda, believe they are doing god's work. But this is a knock-off effect of destablising Iraq - and attacks like this do not occur for religious reasons, they occur because of failing IS strongholds in the Middle East, and realising their backs are against the wall, that this is no different to the entire history of western intervention in the Middle East since 1908. It is a war of wealth. The pawns may not realise it, and the westerners buying into western propaganda may not realise it, but that is what this is.

Great post. The longer people ignore the root causes and keep blaming a religion (1.6 billion adherents), the worse the terrorism will get. It's always the economy, stupid.

Billy86 · 15-07-2016 08:18PM

Lavinia wrote: »

So far as I've read it seems this individual acted on his own??
Does anyone believe in that?

No motive has yet been claimed for this, no one claims the responsibility etc..

Can it be??

Maybe, maybe not.

Still, even if he was acting as a loner rather than on behalf of ISIS or a similar group, I'm thinking their general rhetoric had a strong influence on him, much like the far right elements of the Brexit campaign did on Tommy Mair.

My name is URL · 15-07-2016 08:18PM

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

Such as what?

Everyone keeps saying something needs to be done but nobody has actually said what that something is.

questionmark? · 15-07-2016 08:18PM

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

If you listen to some people on here it was not a terrorist attack but just someone who wanted to commit suicide and take people with him and wasn't anything to do with Islam. Yep you got to love AH some times.

conorhal · 15-07-2016 08:19PM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

So you don't like balance in discussions eh?

Congratulations on reaching irony fail level 100! Your prize is a French flag filter for your facebook page!

If you want to reply to a post try #1201

vg88 · 15-07-2016 08:21PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/?WTmcid=tmgoff_soc_spf_fb&WT.mc_id=sf31048944

Great article in the telegraph by a muslim.

Said similar stuff to the above article (before seeing it) few muslims friends today and all they said was "they are not real muslims" "islam is peaceful" and they got very vicious when related back to issue whether it encourages extremism. "Unless you read the quoran don't say anything you're just being racist and ignorant" or "you're so stupid" are lines my "friends" said when the subject came up of another islamist attack. They won't accept islam has a problem and these are second generation immigrants, where history shows the issues begin and history I think is repeating itself here.

We are looking into a very sad decade within europe i think

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 08:22PM

conorhal wrote: »

Congratulations on reaching irony fail level 100! Your prize is a French flaf filter for your face book page!

If you want to reply to a post try #1201

You're so cool.

I read that after the Paris attacks. It's ISIS nonsense.

What is your point? Better yet, what is your root cause and solution?

wakka12 · 15-07-2016 08:23PM

Skullface McGubbin wrote: »

So another attack by an islamic terrorist. It looks as if it's becoming a regular thing and it's a farce at this stage. It's reasonable to assume there will probably be more through out the year in the world. I wonder how many times it has to keep happening until people take a hint and do what it takes to tackle it.

What will it take? The french police and military seem to be doing everything they can, they stopped dozens of large attacks during the Euros in France, Im sure it was a huge task. They are doing a good job, theres no way of realistically stopping a lunatic from taking it upon himself one night to drive a truck into a crowd unfortunately

RasTa · 15-07-2016 08:27PM

The van being parked there for 9 hours seems to be a **** up by the police. That motorcyclist went under the truck and has died it's being reported.

15-07-2016 08:27PM

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Great post. The longer people ignore the root causes and keep blaming a religion (1.6 billion adherents), the worse the terrorism will get. It's always the economy, stupid.

I think the economy plays a huge role, but it's not the only one.

Why were most of the 9/11 bombers from oil-rich states like Saudi? Some came from prominent families and were educated in Europe.

Why don't most terrorists come from sub-saharan Africa?

We know that radicalised groups are correlated with deprivation to an extent, but it's also possibly a product of mass humiliation and a lack of belonging, perhaps through cultural alienation.

It's not as simple as economic deprivation, although that is frequently a contributing factor, for sure.

osmiumartist · 15-07-2016 08:29PM

There's no excuse for attacks on civilians.
But is it Islam or the fact the France has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Arabs that leads to them getting hit more than anywhere else in Europe?

Shenshen · 15-07-2016 08:29PM

timmyntc wrote: »

Agreed, however shouting "There's nothing wrong with Islam!!!!" or crying "Islamaphobia!!" does little to help and everything to enable the problem.

There is a problem with Islam: it's stuck in the dark ages whereas Christianity has come forward leaps and bounds. The very fact that Christians don't live their lives according to the old testament is proof enough of this.
However in most sects of Islam, the Quran is still, in it's entirety, the bees knees, the be all and end all. It is the word of God and must be followed.

Yes, and a century or so ago there was a problem with Christianity. And then there was a problem with nationalism, and then there was one with women's rights.
And all of these have stopped being issues that cause terrorism (in most of the world, anyway).

So what has changed about Christianity to turn it from burning heretics alive to mildly annoying people wanting to tell you about god on a Saturday morning in town?
And what can be done to speed up the same process for Islam?

There IS nothing wrong with religion, but there is something wrong with the way people use it. So rather than wasting time with trying to find out what's wrong with the religion that's currently causing terrorism, we need to figure out how to address how a religion can become vulnerable to such abuse.
Because otherwise we'll still be hunting down Muslims when the bomb-throwers have found a new religion to offer them a cause.

Gringo180 · 15-07-2016 08:33PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are they allowed to fester within France. ? They have their own little communities, 100's of them around France. Can't touch them until they kill.
World is too PC.

What do you suggest? Internment? They hardly walk around with a sign on there heads saying "im a terrorist"??

osmiumartist · 15-07-2016 08:36PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Why are they allowed to fester within France. ? They have their own little communities, 100's of them around France. Can't touch them until they kill.
World is too PC.

Since, as you say yourself, there are 100s of Muslim communities across France, you've pretty much proven yourself that the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists is miniscule. So well done on that.

captbarnacles · 15-07-2016 08:46PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Such as what?

Everyone keeps saying something needs to be done but nobody has actually said what that something is.

I think they are reluctant to say what they think because it's along the lines of internment/expulsion.

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 08:47PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I think the economy plays a huge role, but it's not the only one.

Why were most of the 9/11 bombers from oil-rich states like Saudi? Some came from prominent families and were educated in Europe.

Why don't most terrorists come from sub-saharan Africa?

We know that radicalised groups are correlated with deprivation to an extent, but it's also possibly a product of mass humiliation and a lack of belonging, perhaps through cultural alienation.

It's not as simple as economic deprivation, although that is frequently a contributing factor, for sure.

I would suggest that the reasons might even vary per country. For example USA is hated as an infidel invader trying to secure the middle east oil whereas France has a lot of colonial baggage which is definitely a factor.

Moo Moo Land · 15-07-2016 08:48PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

What do you suggest? Internment? They hardly walk around with a sign on there heads saying "im a terrorist"??

Internment is a crazy idea that could never work.

Lavinia · 15-07-2016 08:53PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

There's no excuse for attacks on civilians.
But is it Islam or the fact the France has slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Arabs that leads to them getting hit more than anywhere else in Europe?

Tbh I thought France was one of the most liberal countries in Europe when the accepting of immigrants from lets say "Muslim" countries is is question...

Can it be it is now just a country of the opportunity for attacks?

(not stating, just asking eg posing a question)

15-07-2016 08:53PM

captbarnacles wrote: »

I think they are reluctant to say what they think because it's along the lines of internment/expulsion.

Islamic radicalisation isn't a sudoku. There isn't a small number of clear and unambiguous answers.

There might not even be an answer. How do you unstretch a plastic bag? You can't.

I have no difficulty in saying I don't know the answers to violent extremism in the name of Islam, only what steps might be taken to mitigate it, such as educational and economic empowerment, the promotion of integration by not building ghettos, and by greater state control over education. We could list a thousand possible solutions, and they might do wonders, or they might only make a dent. I don't know.

I do know with a fairly high degree of certainty, that security and coercive measures alone are not going to stamp-out violent extremism in the name of Islam.

My name is URL · 15-07-2016 08:54PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Since, as you say yourself, there are 100s of Muslim communities across France, you've pretty much proven yourself that the percentage of Muslims who are terrorists is miniscule. So well done on that.

I'd have far more respect for someone who had the courage to say it if it's what they honestly believe.

Even if it is a ridiculous and unworkable idea which deserves nothing more than to be laughed at.

_oveless_ · 15-07-2016 08:54PM

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 15-07-2016 08:59PM

moloner4 wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/?WTmcid=tmgoff_soc_spf_fb&WT.mc_id=sf31048944

Great article in the telegraph by a muslim.
(

Maajid Nawz is a very interesting man who, having once been an extremist, is well-qualified to talk on the issue. I'd recommend reading articles or watching speeches by him.

Ronald Wilson Reagan · 15-07-2016 09:03PM

_oveless_ wrote: »

europe needs to realize that this is the new normal, we need to accept that large groups of people will be killed on a more regular basis from now on and just get on with it as a part of life. the real fight is against islamaphobia and people who question immigration and security policies. we need to be even more tolerant from now on because even though these people are not representing islam if we further upset muslims they will kill us and it will be our own fault.

Did you forget this: :rolleyes:.

Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1