Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1

15-07-2016 03:17PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually makes good sense and seems to be part of what happens. I suppose the first generation see themselves as "foreign" and tend to keep their heads down and are often grateful for the new home if they've come from a hellhole. The second and third generations are naturalised "locals" born and bred, but are seen and treated as foreign so this is more likely to cause friction, particularly among younger men if their job opportunities are lacking and the latter is or is seen to be because of institutionalised racism within a culture.

But this is the very social justice, integrationist approach that I am suggesting Norway is getting right.

It's not that I dispute the fact that it might take a generation or two to establish itself. But what's establishing itself appears to be social inequality and non-cohesion, and not simply Islam. That's the point.

That's not the whole answer, because some terrorists are middle class, from relatively privileged backgrounds. But it seems to be a substantial part of the answer.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 03:19PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

lol

Lol what?

I think all religions are idiotic and would prefer if none existed, unfortunately gullible people will still fall for these fairy stories and continue to keep them going.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-07-2016 03:19PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think all right thinking people will agree that tarring all Muslims on account of such attacks is counterproductive.

At the same time I can't help but feel that Islam badly needs a reformation.

I agree but you must understand the difficulties faced by those trying to reform Islam. It's not the same as the other two Abrahamic faiths, Islam is the direct word of God given to Mohammed via Angel Gabriel.

Even suggesting that the word of God is wrong or is being misinterpreted can have lethal consequences for those seeking reform in Islam.

testaccount123 · 15-07-2016 03:20PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But this is the very social justice, integrationist approach that I am suggesting Norway is getting right.

It's not that I dispute the fact that it might take a generation or two to establish itself. But what's establishing itself appears to be social inequality and non-cohesion, and not simply Islam. That's the point.

That's not the whole answer, because some terrorists are middle class, from relatively privileged backgrounds. But it seems to be a substantial part of the answer.

So the answer is to give Muslims more welfare, as I thought.

Perhaps we can restructure our entire societies to make sure they dont have their feelings hurt and blow us up.

ArtSmart · 15-07-2016 03:21PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

Here come the 'crazed loner, isnt a Muslim at all' deniers that we get every time Muslims carry out mass murder in France

Damned Daily Telegraph, with it's pinko left commie leanings.

Maybe we wait n see, hmm?

Not as much excitement, I agree, but ....

donegaLroad · 15-07-2016 03:22PM

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

How original...

thank you fred

whiskeyman · 15-07-2016 03:22PM

ArtSmart wrote: »

Seems at the moment he had no links with terrorist groups.

Described by neighbours as a 'weird loner'. Info is that wife left him recently, he'd become depressed.

It may well be that he was just that, a psycho loner. So could have been of any race. Time will hopefully give us the full picture.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/nice-terror-attack-driver-who-killed-84-on-french-riviera-was-cr/

It will be very interesting to see his links, if any, to terrorist groups.
If he was a loner, he may well have been self radicalised online, and used this to release his anger and serve some purpose in his warped mind.

Perhaps this is an 'overflow' benefit ISIS have achieved... although not having actually planned it themselves, their ideology has spurned on others to commit awful acts.

Jimmy Garlic · 15-07-2016 03:22PM

jmayo wrote: »

.
What is happening would be akin to Bills Gates/Warren Buffet bankrolling churches worldwide that spread the Westboro Baptist Church version of christianity.

People would be screaming from the rooftops, but yet Wahhabism or Salafism is quietly being spread across the world and indeed in Ireland.

Worse than that, it is pandered to. The Irish government is bending over backwards for some very dodgy people.

testaccount123 · 15-07-2016 03:23PM

ArtSmart wrote: »

Damned Daily Telegraph, with it's pinko left commie leanings.

Maybe we wait n see, hmm?

Not as much excitement, I agree, but ....

Wait and see what? The people murdered yesterday are already dead.

jmayo · 15-07-2016 03:23PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

But this is the very social justice, integrationist approach that I am suggesting Norway is getting right.

It's not that I dispute the fact that it might take a generation or two to establish itself. But what's establishing itself appears to be social inequality and non-cohesion, and not simply Islam. That's the point.

That's not the whole answer, because some terrorists are middle class, from relatively privileged backgrounds. But it seems to be a substantial part of the answer.

Funny you are arguing about Norway, but what about Sweden ?
Sweden would probably be seen as, if not even more, socially progressive than Norway and has fairly large muslim population.
Yet you haven't dragged them into your argument.:rolleyes:

Might it be because they are having their own issues and sweeping them under the carpet isn't working any longer ?

testaccount123 · 15-07-2016 03:24PM

jmayo wrote: »

Funny you are arguing about Norway, but what about Sweden ?
Sweden would probably be seen as even more socially progressive than Norway and has fairly large muslim population.
Yet you haven't dragged them into your argument.:rolleyes:

Might it be because they are having their own issues and seeping them under the carpet isn't working any longer ?

Its to do with the way they record statistics. Ill save the lads the bother

Grayson · 15-07-2016 03:24PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

Constant, never ending nonsensical comparisons to christianity. Christians are also scummy but they didnt murder 80 people in cold blood yesterday.

If 10% of the population of the country was catholic and 70% of the prison population was catholic that would be alarming and evidence of a serious problem.

By that definition there's a problem with black people in the US.

Timberrrrrrrr · 15-07-2016 03:28PM

Patww79 wrote: »

Where did I say I hadn't a clue? Just because I refuse to engage with someone who thinks nothing should be done because nobody has 'declared war' means very little.

Well you refuse to answere 2 simple questions

Let's see have you the balls to this time

Where should this nuclear strike take place?

How many innocent people should be killed to save the lives of innocent people?

rjpf1980 · 15-07-2016 03:29PM

The message to the Islamist extremists should be simple.

We are a community of modern progressive democratic society built on the foundation of freedom.

We will welcome Muslims who integrate work hard and participate as civilized members of our civilization.

If Muslims seek to impose theocracy on Europe we will fight defeat and destroy you.

We will not compromise.

If you don't like it you can f*ck off.

tomofson · 15-07-2016 03:31PM

rjpf1980 wrote: »

The message to the Islamist extremists should be simple.

We are a community of modern progressive democratic society built on the foundation of freedom.

We will welcome Muslims who integrate work hard and participate as civilized members of our civilization.

If Muslims seek to impose theocracy on Europe we will fight defeat and destroy you.

We will not compromise.

If you don't like it you can f*ck off.

If you think all this conflict is solely and only about muslims trying to impose "theocracy" on Europe or indeed any of the west you are seriously misguided young man.

ArtSmart · 15-07-2016 03:31PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

Wait and see what? The people murdered yesterday are already dead.

Ah. I see.

15-07-2016 03:33PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

So the answer is to give Muslims more welfare, as I thought.

No, the answer is not so simplistic.

Counter-terrorism is undoubtedly one strand to the solution: greater surveillance, invest in weapons, in enhanced technology, airport security, improved organisational structures etc.

That's one strand.

I'm saying there are other strands. Do you deny that?

Or are you suggesting that Norway starts copying the French model? Because it ain't working very well for the French.

jmayo wrote: »

Might it be because they are having their own issues and sweeping them under the carpet isn't working any longer ?

Of course that's the reason.

Are you only getting that now? Come on, man. The whole bloody point is to look at countries which aren't experiencing violence, and to ask questions as to why they aren't, as compared with countries which are persistent hotspots of violent radicalisation.

Sweden wouldn't be as clear an example, because it's had a terrorist event. I'm looking at countries with large urban Muslim populations that have not experienced violent extremism, such as suicide bombings.

HensVassal · 15-07-2016 03:35PM

Bobthefireman wrote: »

You think ISIS are a figment of our collective imaginations?

Watch "The Power of Nightmares". You can get it on youtube.

Analysts on there insist Al-Qaeda never existed but was just a generic bogeyman to scare people while the real fighters in Afghanistan were just that...Pashtun tribesmen.

testaccount123 · 15-07-2016 03:35PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Or are you suggesting that Norway starts copying the French model? Because it ain't working very well for the French.

Norway are copying the French model. Allowing enormous numbers of Muslims into the country with no regard to the consequences. Anyone who questions it is a racist.

Shenshen · 15-07-2016 03:43PM

jmayo wrote: »

It aint Middle East we should worry about, but Europe.
One of the Paris attackers was hiding out in Brussels for how long ?
And when he was arrested some of the locals got a little upset.

Winning the war in Iraq and Syria will wipe all of this out and if only ISIS were defeated everyone would be grand is being short sighted.

As for the idea of using nukes on a chunk of wherever is laughable and something you hear some Americans trot out in a bar.

Comparing extremist and fundamental muslims to Christians, Hindus etc is in my mind just trying to obfuscate and basically deflect the problem.

This is a problem that all muslims, in Europe especially and indeed in other parts of the world, are going to have to accept is now a major problem that is linked to their religion.
When do we see the mass protest rallies after a major muslim fundamentalist attack or do we only see them when a cartoon is printed ?

As usually happens in these threads we also get an attempt to obfuscate the debate further by comparing islamic terrorists to the likes of the IRA, ETA, etc.
IRA, ETA were linked to one particular country and one particular cause, the independence or self determination for one particular patch of land.

Islamic terrorists are not linked any one country or the freedom of any one patch of land.
That has long since died with PLO.

But no matter what way you swing it they are all linked to one particular religion and the only discernible aims are to firstly rid their islamic world of western influence, wipe out anyone that doesn't follow their devout interpretation of islam and then spread that to the wider world.
Boko Haram grew out of desire to stop western education.

Fundamentalist islam and islamisation is being pushed by the Saudis and some other gulf states.
That is a huge worry and politicians in the West, bar the right wingers, appear to be ignoring it.
Even worse the government and media turn to these exact people when someone wants to discuss islam.

What is happening would be akin to Bills Gates/Warren Buffet bankrolling churches worldwide that spread the Westboro Baptist Church version of christianity.

People would be screaming from the rooftops, but yet Wahhabism or Salafism is quietly being spread across the world and indeed in Ireland.

I don't agree that it's obfuscating the problem. It's simply looking beyond the simplistic answer to try and establish the root cause.
Terrorism has plagued humanity throughout most of its existence, it's a method of unsettling a large number of people with minimal effort. And in all honesty, it hasn't changed much in its approach throughout recent centuries, it just updated its arsenal along with military developments.
What makes it seem so much worse than anything the happened before is simply the fact that we have since built a world that makes it so much easier for anyone determined enough to do damage.
At the beginning of the 20th century, the terrorists were anarchists, nationalists and suffragettes.
In the 60s, 70s and 80s, the terrorists were far left groups such as the RAF in Germany, various religious groups, the ETA in Spain, the IRA in the UK, the PLO, etc.

Look back over the centuries, and you'll find Catholic terrorism (Guy Faulkes), Jewish terrorism (Sicarii Zealots), and plain state terrorism (reign of terror in France).

These days, it's either completely nihilistic or Islamist attacks that we hear about in the media.
As side shows, we have Buddhists committing genocides in Myanmar, Hindu nationalist groups bombing their way through India, various (non-Islamic) groups terrorising entire countries in sub-Saharan Africa. Only these aren't big news over here for the most part.

While I don't personally agree with any religion at all, I think to just shout and point at Islam as the root cause of these attacks is far, far too simplistic. It might make some people feel pleasantly righteously outraged, but it's not addressing any actual issues.

Bobthefireman · 15-07-2016 03:43PM

I just don't understand why they come to the Western world. It's like a nun going into a brothel. Why the **** would you bother? You don't like brothels? Don't go in there. You don't like how Western people live? Don't ****ing go there.
I'm certainly not going to move to Saudi Arabia to live.
Do they think they can convert us all or something?
I'm baffled.

jmayo · 15-07-2016 03:43PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Worse than that, it is pandered to. The Irish government is bending over backwards for some very dodgy people.

I alluded to that fact.
When the Irish media need a muslim to comment, they usually roll out to the Muslim Brotherhood guys in Clonskeagh.
You all know the one who even though in Ireland for last nearly 20 years still refuses to speak English and has the young fellow rotting away in Egyptian jail.
Or the other one who gets paid to lecture in Trinity as well as telling us we should segregate boys and girls in schools and not just in the old fashioned Irish catholic way, but more the Saudi way.
Oh and we really should stop kids playing music as well.

It is only now and again you find anyone bothering to listen to or interview the Imam of al-Mustafa Islamic Educational and Cultural Centre in Blanchardstown.
Of course he is the only Imam to have organised an anti ISIS march for muslims in Ireland.
And some say only 50 turned up even though he claimed 200-300 turned up.

He also warns Ireland about returning ISIS fighters, about increasing fundamentalist teaching and recruitment of young Irish muslims.

How often do we hear the views of Shia Imam Dr Ali al-Saleh in Milltown being spread on our media ?

Maybe it's because they aren't being bankrolled by our friends from the gulf and the Arabian peninsula.

Bobthefireman · 15-07-2016 03:45PM

Shenshen wrote: »

While I don't personally agree with any religion at all, I think to just shout and point at Islam as the root cause of these attacks is far, far too simplistic. It might make some people feel pleasantly righteously outraged, but it's not addressing any actual issues.

But it IS Islam. I don't know of any buddhist bombing Paris?

Shenshen · 15-07-2016 03:46PM

jmayo wrote: »

I alluded to that fact.
When the Irish media need a muslim to comment, they usually roll out to the Muslim Brotherhood guys in Clonskeagh.
You all know the one who even though in Ireland for last nearly 20 years still refuses to speak English and has the young fellow rotting away in Egyptian jail.
Or the other one who gets paid to lecture in Trinity as well as telling us we should segregate boys and girls in schools and not just in the old fashioned Irish catholic way, but more the Saudi way.
Oh and we really should stop kids playing music as well.

It is only now and again you find anyone bothering to listen to or interview the Imam of al-Mustafa Islamic Educational and Cultural Centre in Blanchardstown.
Of course he is the only Imam to have organised an anti ISIS march for muslims in Ireland.
And some say only 50 turned up even though he claimed 200-300 turned up.

He also warns Ireland about returning ISIS fighters, about increasing fundamentalist teaching and recruitment of young Irish muslims.

How often do we hear the views of Shia Imam Dr Ali al-Saleh in Milltown being spread on our media ?

Maybe it's because they aren't being bankrolled by our friends from the gulf and the Arabian peninsula.

Or maybe it could just be because the media know what people want to hear... and people prefer having their opinions reinforced, not challenged.

HensVassal · 15-07-2016 03:48PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

yes, so it is said statistically. You are right. We have a long long history as a species of much more violent times. I will try keep it in perspective. Just a lapse today into angst. My daughter flies to France next week, think that is what makes it more worrisome. But you are right, there is a lot more peace now than at other times.

And just remember you're daughter has a better chance of being harmed by lightning than by terrorism.

testaccount123 · 15-07-2016 03:49PM

Bobthefireman wrote: »

I just don't understand why they come to the Western world. It's like a nun going into a brothel. Why the **** would you bother? You don't like brothels? Don't go in there.

True. Whats the upside for the west for Islamic immigration also?

What do we actually gain from it?

Spanish Eyes · 15-07-2016 03:50PM

The French newspaper Sud Ouest has the best coverage of this imv.

They report (according to his neighbours) that the man was a solitary and very rude individual. He was an armed robber, and had a restraining order not to visit his ex wife due to domestic violence. On the day of the attack he had an argument with his colleague, he was also depressed due to the break up of his marriage. He drank, smoked weed, and went out with women, most likely non muslim, but that is not stated.

I know lots of people were injured and killed, but I think many would be relieved if this person was suffering a breakdown and went on the rampage, rather than being part of a Daesh plot. But who knows.

RIP to those killed. Awful stuff.

If you understand French.....

http://www.sudouest.fr/2016/07/15/attentat-a-nice-suivez-en-direct-les-dernieres-informations-2435825-6093.php

Stealthfins · 15-07-2016 03:50PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Oh look, another one

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote:

I agree but you must understand the difficulties faced by those trying to reform Islam. It's not the same as the other two Abrahamic faiths, Islam is the direct word of God given to Mohammed via Angel Gabriel.

The problem is the salifists,not your regular Muslim's.

Salaidin was merciful to Christian's and respectful of people of the holy book.
So were a lot of imirs and Islamic leaders.

Salafism emerged in Saudi Arabia during the end of the 19th century.

Sufism,Shia and other offshoots of Islam are more gentle and mystical.

tomofson · 15-07-2016 03:50PM

testaccount123 wrote: »

True. Whats the upside for the west for Islamic immigration also?

What do we actually gain from it?

Steve Jobs, say no more

Shenshen · 15-07-2016 03:51PM

Bobthefireman wrote: »

But it IS Islam. I don't know of any buddhist bombing Paris?

It does seem to be a really difficult thing to understand, never suspected that.
Let me try and explain myself better : If it is Islam, and assuming you're aware that Islam has been around for 14 centuries, why did it only turn terrorist in the last 4 decades?

In other words, why wasn't it Islam before that, but is Islam now? Did someone re-write the Quran? Or has the geopolitical and social situation in the Middle East gone to hell in a handbasket in that same time that we saw Islamist terror replacing Republican terror?
If it's the ideology that causes terrorism, why are Catholics, Jews and women's rights activists no longer terrorists?

Nice - Bastille day **mod warning post 1**

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Nice - Bastille day mod warning post 1