Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

wokingvoter · 13-06-2016 05:46PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Many people have the opinion that the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few in this case and many others .

Yes when you remove all humanity, all compassion, all understanding and mercy from the human condition all you have left are people's "needs".
And if a few people have to be sacrificed and made examples off in order to meet the needs of the most, well that's just tough. Isn't that what you really mean?

Going Forward · 13-06-2016 05:46PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

Have you read Jim Guerin's 2002 Indo article?
I was amazed how confident he seemed to be
in what he wrote. My 'speculatiin' is based on that article.

Jimmy has published far more than the counsellor has passed on to Gardai.

Yet it hardly caused a ripple.

The article appears to be written by someone very confident and forthright about what they believe to be facts.

And, if it's not, why would he deliberately mislead or, does he have an axe to grind in relation to the case?

Doesn't seem likely.

This clanger in the middle of it, "A person well-known to the boy, who also had an association with the school, offered Philip a lift back to school."

Why didn't he elaborate?

Sounds like a specific sort of person, a non teacher, someone that would possibly be seen as a confessor, someone to confide in, a figure of authority.

I wonder is the mob now baying for Guerin's blood as they were the counsellor's patient a few days ago?

scopper · 13-06-2016 05:54PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Was? It still is. There are towns in Ireland where the whole town knows that residents are raping their kids. It's very prolific. I'm personally aware of 3 (2 convicted) pedophiles living in the same estate near me in Dublin, and they are only the ones we know about.

I got to admit I find this shocking and I am not easily shocked.

Means Of Escape · 13-06-2016 05:56PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

Yes when you remove all humanity, all compassion, all understanding and mercy from the human condition all you have left are people's "needs".
And if a few people have to be sacrificed and made examples off in order to meet the needs of the most, well that's just tough. Isn't that what you really mean?

It's what everyone means who feel that this woman should have come forward sooner
There's no "sacrifice"
It means that a great number of people were certainly affected by her inactions and possible others who we do not know about
She held the key to solving the case.
She must have been aware of that --
She should have made these revelations years earlier for the greater good .

It's clear there is a major divide in opinion regarding this sole event .

Samaris · 13-06-2016 06:03PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

It's what everyone means who feel that this woman should have come forward sooner
There's no "sacrifice"
It means that a great number of people were certainly affected by her inactions and possible others who we do not know about
She held the key to solving the case.
She must have been aware of that --
She should have made these revelations years earlier for the greater good .

It's clear there is a major divide in opinion regarding this sole event .

Okay, NEARLY everyone's gotten over their need to have a go at this woman.

Keane2baMused · 13-06-2016 06:08PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

They already have if they are thinking of the greater number of people affected .

Ah yes, Utilitarianism at its best.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 13-06-2016 06:09PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

It's what everyone means who feel that this woman should have come forward sooner
There's no "sacrifice"
It means that a great number of people were certainly affected by her inactions and possible others who we do not know about
She held the key to solving the case.
She must have been aware of that --
She should have made these revelations years earlier for the greater good .

It's clear there is a major divide in opinion regarding this sole event .

I don't think anyone's denying that it would have been the right thing to do to come forward, and I doubt there's anyone whose heart isn't going out to the Cairns family right now.

What people are saying is that there were probably reasons this woman didn't come forward before, good reasons. She is not a heartless bitch who withheld the information for shíts and giggles. She might have been struggling with this day and night for the last thirty years for all we know. The aftermath of suffering abuse as a child can be difficult to understand, trauma leads to people doing confusing, even senseless things, being volatile or irrationally afraid. And there may well have been solid, rational reasons for her to be afraid of coming forward.

And probably every single horrible thing that was written about her in this thread...all those things probably went through her head while she was making the decision. This is what people are going to say about me. What if they find out my identity? What if they find out where I live? What if the Cairns family want to confront me? What if I'm prosecuted? What if I'm not believed and people think I'm torturing the Cairns family?

And she still did it. Yes, it would have been nicer if it was sooner, but she did it. Fair play to her.

And it is in no way in the interest of the many to prosecute people like this.

Means Of Escape · 13-06-2016 07:11PM

It's in the interest of the many for the few or the one to reveal what they know in cases like this .

Means Of Escape · 13-06-2016 07:14PM

Eliezer Deafening Sock wrote: »

I don't think anyone's denying that it would have been the right thing to do to come forward, and I doubt there's anyone whose heart isn't going out to the Cairns family right now.

What people are saying is that there were probably reasons this woman didn't come forward before, good reasons. She is not a heartless bitch who withheld the information for shíts and giggles. She might have been struggling with this day and night for the last thirty years for all we know. The aftermath of suffering abuse as a child can be difficult to understand, trauma leads to people doing confusing, even senseless things, being volatile or irrationally afraid. And there may well have been solid, rational reasons for her to be afraid of coming forward.

And probably every single horrible thing that was written about her in this thread...all those things probably went through her head while she was making the decision. This is what people are going to say about me. What if they find out my identity? What if they find out where I live? What if the Cairns family want to confront me? What if I'm prosecuted? What if I'm not believed and people think I'm torturing the Cairns family?

And she still did it. Yes, it would have been nicer if it was sooner, but she did it. Fair play to her.

And it is in no way in the interest of the many to prosecute people like this.

"Nicer" if it was sooner
Will you have the same opinion and use the same word if Cooke is linked later to another murder and multiple rapes since she witnessed that in 1986 ?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 13-06-2016 07:18PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

It's in the interest of the many for the few or the one to reveal what they know in cases like this .

Which is exactly what she has done.

Obviously, if when she was a child she could have trusted someone enough to tell them, would have been believed, Cooke would have been caught, that would been vastly preferable to what's happened. None of that happened for an awful lot of reasons. This isn't something that can be boiled down black and white and pitchforks, as much as people might want it to be. It's an omnishambles of a clusterfúck of an absolute tragedy, with victims being failed seriously and repeatedly for a long time.

LorMal · 13-06-2016 07:19PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

It's in the interest of the many for the few or the one to reveal what they know in cases like this .

Maybe let this one go. We do not have sufficient details to be judging anyone (other than Cooke - may he rot)

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 13-06-2016 07:20PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

"Nicer" if it was sooner
Will you have the same opinion and use the same word if Cooke is linked later to another murder and multiple rapes since she witnessed that in 1986 ?

No I'll change my opinion to 'it would have been badder' :rolleyes:

wokingvoter · 13-06-2016 07:21PM

scopper wrote: »

I got to admit I find this shocking and I am not easily shocked.

Don't be shocked. It's just not true.

wokingvoter · 13-06-2016 07:31PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

It's what everyone means who feel that this woman should have come forward sooner
There's no "sacrifice"
It means that a great number of people were certainly affected by her inactions and possible others who we do not know about
She held the key to solving the case.
She must have been aware of that --
She should have made these revelations years earlier for the greater good .

It's clear there is a major divide in opinion regarding this sole event .

There's not a major divide at all.
Show us other examples of people who are up to date on this story who concur with you.
You absolutely refuse to allow this woman to be traumatised afraid intimidated depressed emotionally distressed
It's almost as if you deny that any of these human conditions actually exist
As if they are all figments of her imagination
I think even if you could be convinced that they are real human conditions you simply don't understand how these trivialities ( you probably accept that emotional upset occasionally besets weaker members of the species then yourself) could prevent someone from "coming forward and doing the right thing".

Keane2baMused · 13-06-2016 07:31PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

"Nicer" if it was sooner
Will you have the same opinion and use the same word if Cooke is linked later to another murder and multiple rapes since she witnessed that in 1986 ?

Yes, same opinion.

PTSD doesn't have a convenient time frame.

Unless you have personal experience of it and can tell us conclusively that's not the case?

Flippyfloppy · 13-06-2016 07:33PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

There's not a major divide at all.
Show us other examples of people who are up to date on this story who concur with you.
You absolutely refuse to allow this woman to be traumatised afraid intimidated depressed emotionally distressed
It's almost as if you deny that any of these human conditions actually exist
As if they are all figments of her imagination
I think even if you could be convinced that they are real human conditions you simply don't understand how these trivialities ( you probably accept that emotional upset occasionally besets weaker members of the species then yourself) could prevent someone from "coming forward and doing the right thing".

I would wager this poster is not capable of empathy! Nothing can be done to convince them otherwise.....no point in good kind posters wasting their time trying to do so.

Kamili · 13-06-2016 07:41PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

She held the key to solving the case.
She must have been aware of that --
She should have made these revelations years earlier for the greater good .
.

I don't think she did hold the key. People already knew and her coming forward wasn't going to change it one iota. In fact she was probably discouraged by the Gardaí dismissing the paedophile story. Maybe to cover up something or maybe incompetency. But they dismissed two others that came forward, so why would she be believed?

Going Forward · 13-06-2016 07:52PM

Kamili wrote: »

I don't think she did hold the key. People already knew and her coming forward wasn't going to change it one iota. In fact she was probably discouraged by the Gardaí dismissing the paedophile story. Maybe to cover up something or maybe incompetency. But they dismissed two others that came forward, so why would she be believed?

The reason that it is being taken seriously now is because of her counsellor's involvement.

A professional independent third party is now involved, who I would like to think may have went public had her or her patient's concerns been dismissed, as seems to have happened in the past.

Kamili · 13-06-2016 07:57PM

Going Forward wrote: »

The reason that it is being taken seriously now is because of her counsellor's involvement.

A professional independent third party is now involved, who I would like to think may have went public had her or her patient's concerns been dismissed, as seems to have happened in the past.

Maybe she went public because her patients concerns were dismissed..

Its just convenient that its happened when they knew he was dying.

Flippyfloppy · 13-06-2016 08:04PM

Kamili wrote: »

Maybe she went public because her patients concerns were dismissed..

Its just convenient that its happened when they knew he was dying.

There was probably some urgency as he was dying with the knowledge of where Phillip is buried.

Howjoe1 · 13-06-2016 08:07PM

Curious, does everybody believe 100% now that Cooke murdered Philip?

Means Of Escape · 13-06-2016 08:07PM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

I would wager this poster is not capable of empathy! Nothing can be done to convince them otherwise.....no point in good kind posters wasting their time trying to do so.

I have empathy for the Cairns family
.
The woman's silence for almost 30 years has done a disservice to everyone who has worked on finding Philip Cairns since he went missing .

Samaris · 13-06-2016 08:09PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

"Nicer" if it was sooner
Will you have the same opinion and use the same word if Cooke is linked later to another murder and multiple rapes since she witnessed that in 1986 ?

Which would also not be her fault. It would be the fault of the goddam rapist and murderer. I cannot believe that this needs pointing out.

Means Of Escape · 13-06-2016 08:10PM

wokingvoter wrote: »

There's not a major divide at all.
Show us other examples of people who are up to date on this story who concur with you.
You absolutely refuse to allow this woman to be traumatised afraid intimidated depressed emotionally distressed
It's almost as if you deny that any of these human conditions actually exist
As if they are all figments of her imagination
I think even if you could be convinced that they are real human conditions you simply don't understand how these trivialities ( you probably accept that emotional upset occasionally besets weaker members of the species then yourself) could prevent someone from "coming forward and doing the right thing".

Read the second post on this thread from 3 days ago .(El Chapo)

One example of many

Kamili · 13-06-2016 08:20PM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

There was probably some urgency as he was dying with the knowledge of where Phillip is buried.

Doesn't excuse why they didn't act on it previously, assuming they knew. Which appears to be the case.

Fleawuss · 13-06-2016 08:25PM

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Curious, does everybody believe 100% now that Cooke murdered Philip?

This case is an absolute mess. Its going nowhere. The chief suspect is dead and cannot answer charges. The Garda investigation is a shambles. The evidence brought forward recently seems to have been around for years. All we actually know after it all is that Philip Cairns is still missing. It looks like he always will be.

wokingvoter · 13-06-2016 08:26PM

Howjoe1 wrote: »

Curious, does everybody believe 100% now that Cooke murdered Philip?

No. I believe that this woman believes that she saw Cooke murder the child.
I believe that Cooke told the Gardai that he knew Philip Cairns.
I don't know wether he did know him or not.
It may just have been part of the intimidation he used on his victims to make sure they told no one about the abuse :
"If you tell anyone I'll murder you like I murdered Philip Cairns".

wokingvoter · 13-06-2016 08:30PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Read the second post on this thread from 3 days ago .(El Chapo)

One example of many

I specifically asked for posts from people who are now up to date on this story
Not the moronic knee jerk reactions from when the story broke.
But you knew that already

intheclouds · 13-06-2016 08:30PM

scopper wrote: »

I got to admit I find this shocking and I am not easily shocked.

It is shocking. There are horrific cases round the country that never see the papers.

Think about this. For all the actual incidences of child sexual abuse that happen, only a fraction get reported. Of those that get reported only a fraction go to court as the DPP won't prosecute a case they think they can't win. The vast majority of cases and "someones word against someone else's" years later with no evidence. Of those that get a successful prosecution, very very few waive anonymity and allow the papers to publish details.

So what you see reported on is the very tip of the iceberg.

Pedophiles like Cooke are not the common face of pedophilia in this country, it's going on quietly in homes on your street, in your estate, in your town.

Samaris · 13-06-2016 08:30PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Read the second post on this thread from 3 days ago .(El Chapo)

One example of many

That was back when people were reacting emotionally and cruelly. Most people have moved past that, bar yourself and perhaps a couple of others.

I think this part of the conversation could really be done with by now. You want to place blame on her, others reckon that this is absolutely the most **** point to be leaping on in this story.

Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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