Liam Lawlor is dead

fade

Pigman II wrote:

Dies aged just 61 and he was going thru some hard stuff at the end. First there was the windscreen, then there was the lamppost.

sick man, just ****in sick. i hope someone jokes about you when you die.

Sleepy

RainyDay wrote:

Our Justice Minister & former Attorney General seems to agree with me that they can't sue - from Irish Times

Fair enough.

Yet again, I'm not suggesting you grant anything to Lawlor. I'm suggesting you grant his wife & children some privacy & protection from spurious, unfounded allegations until they can at least bury the man.

I didn't believe I had made any suggestions about his wife and children tbh.

Eh, he's not an elected representative. He got out of that game some time ago. And he wasn't convicted of anything - his time in jail related to contempt of court.

Lawlor was fair game. Even as a former elected representative, he is a public figure. It's one of the things you must accept before running for office. By the logic you seem to be arguing here it's right that CJ Haughey hasn't been taken to task for his criminal activities either then is it?

The lack of a conviction probably cost Lawlor his life as any fair trial would have seen him serving time. I don't believe that the lack of a conviction, or even his death, in any way redeem him. Serving his time would have done that, but as we all know, Lawlor got away with being as corrupt as he liked.

I agree on the benefit of a free press. But claims of brothel visit & sex clubs just aren't relevant. And as for spurious claims about teenage prostitutes ......

Some people would claim that the law-breaking of former politicians is entirely newsworthy. Unless I'm mistaken, prostitution is illegal in Russia, is it not?

Why are you assuming that she didn't explain her situation to the police? Why are you allocating blame to her? Have you considered that the shock of being in an accident where 2 people were killed just might have affected her ability to communicate?

It's possible, but to my mind, it's just as possible that she was a hooker.

You should consider getting a job at the Indo. Your ability to cast slurs on people with no supporting evidence will be valued greatly there. Your 'One might think' comment is quite outragous, and I'd suggest that you reflect on this. Could you look the translator's 6 year old daughter in the eye & explain why you felt it necessary to imply that her mother sleeps around?

Do you read my posts and consider them, or just look at ways of attacking them? Can you not argue in favour of your opinion without sensationalising and personalising every point?

So just to be clear, you do now accept that the person in the car wasn't a teenager - right?

Nope, I don't accept it as a fact at all. It's gaining more credence, but I'm sorry, I don't trust the media as easily as you seem to. In this particular case I believe it's more likely that they reported the news in a hurry and then reconsidered their position rather than that they simply got it wrong in the first place. I may be wrong. The difference between us would appear to be that I can accept that as a possibility. You appear to believe yourself as God's own oracle who's opinions couldn't possibly be anything other than absolute truth.

copacetic

Sleepy wrote:

I don't trust the media as easily as you seem to.

you are basing everything you believe on what the media initially reported, you seem to be the one thats easy to fool (but only initially, apparently once you believe something your not for turning!). Most people wouldn't have taken it to be gospel to begin with, but then most people would simply admit that if the reports are retracted as false, then they simply are. why don't you just stop digging?

god I think I will have to turn off my subscribed threads thing, everytime I see another of these posts I feel sick...

bishop brennan

I have already posted here Sunday about my disgust of the way his death
was reported,but some of the comments here:mad:
Listening to Liam Lawlor's sister in law on radio1 describing his son alone in a
Moscow hotel room crying his eyes out,youd need a heart of stone not to feel
sorry for the family.
We can all see people's view's here but i hope they never have to endure the hell this family has been through.
We all know what Liam Lawlor did BUT any decent Irish person should be
outraged at the comments both here and in the print media.

RainyDay

Hi Mycroft - You referred to both the Sunday Wuddled and the observer (sic) in your earlier post, so that's why I wanted to make sure that you were aware of the broad reach of the Indo group. Incidentally, it looks to me as if the foundations of your current position is shaky - The relevant article seems to have been dropped from their website, which is pretty interesting. Watch this space closely....

Hi Sleepy - It's amazing that you accuse me of getting personal, but you're quite happy to continue to fling around the 'teenage prostitute' allegation (especially when the original promotor of this allegation has completely withdrawn their claim). Just put yourself into the shoes of his wife or his daughter at the moment - how would you feel? DaveyM is right - when you're in a hole, you should stop digging.

MrJoeSoap

fade wrote:

sick man, just ****in sick. i hope someone jokes about you when you die.

Would that not be sick too?

An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind.

Gordon

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Would that not be sick too?

An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind.

Not if the first to cast a stone was one without sin.

Hagar

Jesus: "Mother put down that rock FFS, Gordon was only joking"

MrJoeSoap

So one sin leads to chaos, I get ya! So thats how Christianity works!

the_syco

ferdi wrote:

does anyone actually know why he was in russia? not that it matters/

Proberly checking one of 110 bank accounts...

That the moment these papers heard there was an unnamed girl in the car, they decided she was a hooker?

That the unnamed girl, in the back seat of a car coming from a well known red light district, with no affiliation to either of the two men in the car... yeah, hooker sounds about right.

=-=

Also, when he died, they proberly asked the Russian cops what happened. If you got an answer of "he was coming from a red light district, with a female passenger" that had no link to either man, and you knew he had some very dodgy dealings... your not going to think he was visiting a charity, do you?

RainyDay

the_syco wrote:

That the unnamed girl, in the back seat of a car coming from a well known red light district, with no affiliation to either of the two men in the car... yeah, hooker sounds about right.

=-=

Also, when he died, they proberly asked the Russian cops what happened. If you got an answer of "he was coming from a red light district, with a female passenger" that had no link to either man, and you knew he had some very dodgy dealings... your not going to think he was visiting a charity, do you?

Seems like you've fallen for the Indo spin. He wasn't coming from a red light district, he was passing by a red light district on the main highway from the airport into the city, just in the same way that anyone travelling from Hueston station down the quays into town passes by a red light district. Do you reckon that every driver passing down the quays is chasing hookers too?

the1andonly1

Even if the allegations were true (which I doubt they are) why would it be ok to publish them? Why would it be neccasary to pile hurt upon his family at their time of pain? There is no public interest involved, he was never one to preach about sexual misconduct, in that regard he has as much right to privacy as you or I. These allegations were cleary written to generate sales, and shows the mentality of journalists at the papers concerned.

MrJoeSoap

the1andonly1 wrote:

Even if the allegations were true (which I doubt they are) why would it be ok to publish them? Why would it be neccasary to pile hurt upon his family at their time of pain? There is no public interest involved, he was never one to preach about sexual misconduct, in that regard he has as much right to privacy as you or I. These allegations were cleary written to generate sales, and shows the mentality of journalists at the papers concerned.

I have a feeling it may have completely backfired as I will no longer touch the Independent with a barge pole.

wheels of ire

Could we have a bit of sense here, lads? The teenage prostitute is a 32 year-old interpreter and mother, and according to the family, is known to Mrs Lawlor.
I have worked as a tri-lingual interpreter, and occasionally found myself in situations I would never otherwise have. For example, married a mere two months and trying to renovate an old house/ruin on no money,at the Frankfurt Spring Show, when my client asked if I wanted to earn some extra dosh I jumped at it.This explains how I found myself negotiating with several Madams in high-class brothels in Frankfurt on behalf of 15 Italian businessmen. I declined the kind offer of a freebie, explaining that I was recently married, to which she replied that I would be back. It was really weird, sitting at the bar with some of the most intelligent beautiful almost naked women who chilled once my status as just the interpreter became clear.They were disgusted at the rate I was getting for the evening, even putting me wise as to the proper rate. I didn't even dare get buckled for fear of drunkenly betraying my ex.
So it could be said of me that I frequented whorehouses.
But the sexism of the 'reporting' which assume that a good looking, or indeed, any woman travelling with a businessman must be a sex-worker.I worked a lot for one guy, eventually becoming his Export Director. When we travelled, we often shared a room. Would that mean I am gay?
And when I used work near the Pepper Canister here, does that mean I frequented 'red-light districts'?
Henry McDonald is the author of the allegations that Lawlor was well-known for frequenting sex clubs and brothels in Prague. Is it well known? The Sindo didn't have this, and is anyone out there aware of this. My sources haven't heard this before.
But something I haven't seen any of you mention the much more damaging allegation that the deceased had been happy to go to the Joy because he was scared of the major Dublin criminals, on whose part he was allegedly laundering money. This wasn't in the Sindo either, and bad and all as he was, this really is something I have not heard before. Without any evidence being offered, it would be interesting to know the source of this? Because the Sindo is trying to blame the allegations on the Obsever/Grauniad Moscow correspondent, and he has declined it. A lot of you seem to have missed the conditional tense used. I 'may have shagged Miss World '. Sadly, I didn't, but I may have done, were I lucky.
Clearly this did not come from Moscow. I have been in contact with the Observer's Readers Editor's department several time over the past two days and all they can tell me is that it is the hands of their legal department, and admit their puzzlement as to why their lawyers are involved in what is surely a matter of editorial judgement and the story stacks up or it doesn't.
I think that Henry McDonald and the entire editorial process of the Observer is (or should be) under serious internal investigation.
This is journalism of the Judith Miller/WMD New York Times school.

Jonny Arson

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I will no longer touch the Independent with a barge pole.

ditto.

I haven't been this repulsed over journalism ever in my life. I pray to god heads roll left right and centre over these disgusting, insensitive lies the Sunday Independent has published. How Aengus Fanning hasn't resigned or been sacked is beyond me.

I'm very surprised with the attitudes of alot of people towards these false allegations. It seems to me alot of people think it's perfectly ok to print touchy immoral lies about someone who had just tragically lost their life in a such a sad way.

Lawlor was far from an angel but for jaysus sake no dead person ever deserves lies to be published about them days after they've died and the insensitivity towards the Lawlor family is absolutely sickening.

People will do anything to sell a few papers. :mad:

ek942

Immoral lies about an immoral liar.How ironic.F*ck him.Hope he's burning in hell.

Stench Blossoms

Liam Lawlor's daughter is a friend of my family and i am absolutly horrified looking at some of the posts here.

Have some respect people.

How would you feel if you father died and people were somewhat "happy"???

I'm not sticking up for Liam at all because he was far from perfect but nobody deserves to have lies spread about them.

Try and think of what his family are going through.

wheels of ire

ek942 wrote:

Immoral lies about an immoral liar.F*ck him.Hope he's burning in hell.

I suspect some posters really do belive that Ethics is a county in the south of England. Now one abuse validates another.
The surprising anger of the great unwashed and indeed the nation generally still retains the concept of good manners and human decency.Unlike the kids who never knew/know about them.
About the best I can think of to say about Lawlor is at least he is biodegrable.So why give more pain to his family? Punishment?-we have Courts for that.
Or do we hand over the decisions on guilt or innocence to the exigencies of the pop red-tops?
I remember a time when we used the courts and juries composedmof 12 citizens who are chosen almost at random, and they evaluate the evidece as presented and cross-examimed. Serious papers and hacks have always made the presumption in favour or reporting both sides.
This isn't true of some papers, who arrogate to themselves the guilt or, innocence decision to themselves. And then publish stories designed to sell papers designed to damage the cred of the defendant and all his supporters.
I can only say that were I to find myself facing serious criminal charges that I would prefer to rely on the judgement of a jury of my peers to having my fate decided by Indo careerist hacks

larryone

Far from perfect? The man was rotten to the core!
I'm not happy he's dead - I am annoyed that quite a lot of knowlege of how much damage he did will die with him, and I am glad that he wont be able to do any more.
But really, the Indo is equivalent to tabloid press. It's been going downhill for years, and I really wasnt supprised to see what I saw in the headlines on sunday. I was kinda disappointed that a paper that used to be good has gone so bad.
I think it is really aweful for his family... seeing bull5hite like that printed about him so soon after hearing about his passing. Your heart really has to go out to them.
Sure the man was a rotten mofo, and maybe the world is a better place without him, but no family should have to go through the horror of having to deal with scum like the Indo publishing lies about the man.

Sleepy

orla wrote:

Liam Lawlor's daughter is a friend of my family and i am absolutly horrified looking at some of the posts here.

Have some respect people.

I didn't respect the man when he was alive, I'm not about to respect him in his death. If he cared about his family being hurt by his actions and people's reactions towards him, he wouldn't have done them. We reap what we sow and unfortunately sometimes it is the surviving family that are left harvesting a bad crop.

How would you feel if you father died and people were somewhat "happy"???

I can think of at least one person who will be happy when my father dies: my mother. I'm not sure how I feel about it to be honest but I'll deal with it when the time comes.

I'm not sticking up for Liam at all because he was far from perfect but nobody deserves to have lies spread about them.

Maybe they are lies, but I can't say I feel the least bit of sympathy for his memory.

Try and think of what his family are going through.

I'm sure it's a very tough time for them, and if you can believe it, I do have a lot of sympathy for them. However, what they're going through is ultimately neither the fault of the media, nor the taxpayer glad to see the end to a dishonest life but the fault of one Liam Lawlor. If he'd led an honest life, his family wouldn't be in this position. Hell, if he'd even lived the dishonest one he did and come clean about it in the tribunals, his family wouldn't be in this position.

sceptre

orla wrote:

How would you feel if you father died and people were somewhat "happy"???

I'll take this one Ted as I've not commented on a single Lawlor thread here in any fashion.

I'd be somewhat surprised. My father's a pretty honest enough bloke with an ordinary enough job. I'm sure that like half the country he probably didn't declare the (presumably) 35-odd cents he could have earned on whatever money he's got in his deposit account in his last tax return but that notwithstanding as far as I know he's never done anything illegal or immoral that would have anyone at all being actually glad of any misfortune that might become him, let alone be glad of his death.

If you put your head above the parapet for any reason, let's say by taking a high profile public job, some people aren't going to like you. If you do that and add in what Liam Lawlor was up to (and I'm thinking of the apparent stuff, not the vague acccusations), plenty of ordinary people are going to actively dislike you. Shakespeare's Marc Anthony spoke truly when he said that the evil that men do lives on while the good is often interred with their bones but that presupposes there's wrongdoing there in the first place.

It's an awful time for Liam Lawlor's family - they've lost a family member and they've had the newspapers print stuff about the guy, some of it true, some of it dubious. That's a terrible thing to go through on both counts. The behaviour of some (and I'm stressing "some") of the media has been truly appalling. But it's not irrelevant to remember that had Lawlor been a genuinely and obviously honest bloke, a servant of the people as well as a man of the people, there wouldn't be anywhere near the same bread and circuses attitude from some of the papers who should still know a little better. The media are responsible for their actions, particularly in this case where they're being rightly accused of being less then responsible. However something the same could be said fairly about the dead guy. It's not all that fair on his family either way and if both he and the papers were just a little more prudent, just a little more careful, just a little less, er "opportunity-grabbing" and just a little more honest, none of us would be taking part in this type of discussion.

If my father died? A comparatively small number of people would even notice.

wheels of ire

I am truly sorry to hear your mother would be glad of your father's death, unless he happens to be suffering the sort of death my own father suffered, when death is a relief, in which case death eased a wonderful man into compost in the graveyard.
No disrepect- and I am a bit jarred- but why would you visit the sins of the father on the descendants, who in this case are the surviving family having unecessary additional pain.
But just how innocent is Independent News and Media? Why is the Baron (sorry, Sir) Bean Baron's organisation in the Courts trying to stifle discussion of the Fitzwilton donation to Haughey. Why is this?
I think this would be much enlightening than more prurient interest. And it does seem, now I think of it, that the main detractors of the Tribunals seem to mostly work for the ID&M group. Whch fortunately has absolutely nothing to do with the still unexplained mystery of why Fitzwilton gave a sizable wedge to Haughey. More to the point: what were they buying? Why is Tony O'Reilly or his minions in the High and Supreme Court (next) to avoid explaining how they took money from the shareholders and seemingly gave it to another crook, Haughey. Says a lot about something, I'm sure. Wat were they expecting in return?
And then talk of spreading democracy. Oh yes

y
a

RainyDay

mycroft wrote:

Thats nice and say it with me my quote came from the Observer. Not a member of the O'Reilly group.

Thats nice still doesn't escape the fact you were wrong the indo wasn't the only paper, and not just in the O'Reilly group that reported the story.

Hi Mycroft - Seems like basing your arguements on the Observer article wasn't such a good idea - See today's Irish Times article;

Yesterday, the Observer, which had earlier insisted its story had reported "accurately and in good faith" comments by the Moscow police, also admitted it had erred.

In a statement, the newspaper said "serious discrepancies" had emerged in the account provided by police to its correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh.

"In the light of these discrepancies we have removed the story published in the Irish edition of the Observer from our website. We would like to apologise for the inaccuracies in the story and for the distress the story caused."

I'll be looking forward to your response.

seamus

RainyDay wrote:

I'll be looking forward to your response.

He's not going to be able to respond now.

If you want to continue this, there are two other LL threads, one in Politics and another in News/Media.

Locked.