Liam Lawlor is dead

gonker

According to the 6o'clock news on RTE officials in Russia have confirmed that the girl was from the ukraine working as a translator in Praque.

besty

Just heard on RTE news there that the girl was a Ukranian translator working in Prague...

Crash

Reported in the observer today that he had a habit of frequenting brothels and sex shops in prague on his numerous business trips. How extraneous to the story is that? i mean in fairness, the only thing i feel out of all of this is that i'm glad the girl survived, but can anyone tell me how that piece in the observer is needed at all?

Mr.Nice Guy

black_jack wrote:

Lawlor was up to his neck in political double dealings and backhanders. Like I said you're obviously in college or school and aren't up to speed on the mans history.

I am well aware of the man's history.

black_jack wrote:

You've a pathetic habit of misrepresenting the arguments of the person you're arguing with.

That's a lie. I have quoted you quite a bit.

black_jack wrote:

Where did I say he deserved to die? Pin point exactly where I said that. Go on I dare you. Motherf*cking double dare you to quote Samuel L jackson. I never said such a thing.

Your position is obvious:

black_jack wrote:

He's screwed every man woman and child on this isle, and didn't give a damn, and now I'm supposed to "be quiet" and not speak ill of the dead?

black_jack wrote:

yeah, and right. In that order.

Um, what?

black_jack wrote:

Do you know what the word hyprocrite means? I mean really? How exactly am I a hyprocrite?

You are a hypocrite because you make moral judgements about Mr Lawlor, berating him for the disrespect he showed the Irish people, yet you don't have the moral fibre yourself to show respect to his family since you said 'he didn't have much respect for his family, so why should I?' Appalling stuff.

black_jack wrote:

Gosh yes, and somepeople have so little honesty in them that they'll act all two faced, two days ago lawlor couldn't get a kind word spoken to him, but now since his tragic death we're supposed to ignore his greed duplicity and dishonesty and make with the nicey nicey. Thats hyprocricy.

Who said we should ignore his 'greed, duplicity and dishonesty'? By the way, I love the way you asked me earlier if I knew what the word 'hypocrite' meant when it is clear that you yourself do not know what it means and that furthermore, you can't even spell the word 'hypocrisy'.

black_jack wrote:

And again you clueless muppet when did I reference serial killers Nazis? I was merely pointing out this country's charmless habit of ignoring wrongdoings because we dare not upset our holy cows.

Here come the personal insults. It's sad when a person is struggling in an argument (like you are) that they have to resort to ad hominem attacks...

black_jack wrote:

And the faux decency and struggling to find a good word is dishonest and lacks spine and backbone.

Faux decency? It's called having character. Something which some people are clearly lacking in...

black_jack wrote:

You're the of ilk of the "moral" and the "honest" and the "good" who's kind has made out well from Lawlor's doings, now sush, lets not speak ill of the dead.

Dear oh dear! LOL! First the insults, then the sweeping generalisations. You're really struggling.:)

black_jack wrote:

Lawlor's death means the flood tribunal will wrap up early, this is the kind of thinking your argument personifys.

Eh? When did that become part of my argument? You're struggling so much that you're now inventing things!

black_jack wrote:

As for the bulls*it argument that we should be respectful to his family, again killed in a car with a teenage prostitute. What respect did he afford his own?

Here's the hypocrisy again. You pass moral judgements on Mr Lawlor yet you haven't got the courtesy to show respect to his family yourself. What makes you and Lawlor so different then?

kstanl wrote:

You're just embarrassing yourself.

kstanl wrote:

he was a f**king scumbag who stole from us all and who, it turns out, may have been humping diseased whores behind his wife's back.

The only one embarrassing themselves here is you. What a vile thing to say about a man who has recently died.

Mr.Nice Guy

besty wrote:

Just heard on RTE news there that the girl was a Ukranian translator working in Prague...

Dear oh dear. Now what will the people who wanted to believe he was sleeping with prostitutes say now?:rolleyes:

Sarky

I guess we'll just have to stick with the worthless scumbag line. Fiddlesticks, eh?

Ruaidhri

another fine example of what life in the fast lane will do for you...

black_jack

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

I am well aware of the man's history.

Ah so you're just ignoring it grand so.

That's a lie. I have quoted you quite a bit.

No misquoted. I never said Lawlor deserved to die. Again I ask where did I say exactly Lawlor deserved to die.

Your position is obvious:

No it's not. Again you're mispresenting me. Your arguments are rudimentary and your debating skills shoddy. I have never said I was glad he was dead or deserved to die. in fact the quote you took says clearly;

me wrote:

He's screwed every man woman and child on this isle, and didn't give a damn, and now I'm supposed to "be quiet" and not speak ill of the dead?

that I'm opposed to this don't speak ill of the dead attitude, not eager to see him dead. So you're either lying, mispresenting me, making stuff up or can't read. So which are you, a liar or stupid?

You are a hypocrite because you make moral judgements about Mr Lawlor, berating him for the disrespect he showed the Irish people, yet you don't have the moral fibre yourself to show respect to his family since you said 'he didn't have much respect for his family, so why should I?' Appalling stuff.

No, thats not hyporcrisy. If I was berating Lawlor's behaviour while I was on the take that'd be hyprocrisy. Is english your second language?

Who said we should ignore his 'greed, duplicity and dishonesty'? By the way, I love the way you asked me earlier if I knew what the word 'hypocrite' meant when it is clear that you yourself do not know what it means and that furthermore, you can't even spell the word 'hypocrisy'.

Mocking spelling in an internet debate is the last act of a failing argument. You are saying we should not say anything (ergo ignore) about his corruption.

Here come the personal insults. It's sad when a person is struggling in an argument (like you are) that they have to resort to ad hominem attacks...

*L* telling someone they're failing doesn't mean they are. And as for the clueless muppet part, hey if the hat fits.

Faux decency? It's called having character. Something which some people are clearly lacking in...

Oh priceless, just priceless two faced duplicity is now "character"

Dear oh dear! LOL! First the insults, then the sweeping generalisations. You're really struggling.:)

You're really bad at this aren't you?

Eh? When did that become part of my argument? You're struggling so much that you're now inventing things!

I'm inventing things? From the bloke who puts words in my mouth? I was merely putting your attitude into its wider context.

Here's the hypocrisy again. You pass moral judgements on Mr Lawlor yet you haven't got the courtesy to show respect to his family yourself. What makes you and Lawlor so different then?

Is his family on this message board?

What makes myself and Lawlor different? Hmmm I've never been tried for contempt of court, taken a bribe, abused a public office, for a start.

The only one embarrassing themselves here is you. What a vile thing to say about a man who has recently died.

Thats nice still doesn't change the fact you haven't got a leg to stand on, no one said Lawlor deserved to die, you're putting words into people's mouths. I suggest you desist.

Dear oh dear. Now what will the people who wanted to believe he was sleeping with prostitutes say now?

Ah the euphemism are already in.Now the teenager with Lawlor is a "translator". Do you really think you get a teenage Ukraninan girl to act as a translator for a former Irish TD in Moscow?

Hey Niceguy did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the english dictionary.

This isn't the first time Lawlor has been found up to his neck with eastern european prostitutes, but then you do know all about the man's history :rolleyes:

kstanl

black_jack wrote:

Now thats offensive, describing a child most likely the victim of trafficing, and forced into it as a "diseased whore"

I don't know if she was diseased. No more than you know that she was a victim of trafficing. If she was in fact working as a prostitute, then she's a whore. It's a fact albeit a matter of semantics. If you find that offensive then I suggest you crawl back under your rock. :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

besty wrote:

him being in the red light district with a 20 year old prostitute.

Has it been confirmed that she was as old as that ?

kstanl

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

The only one embarrassing themselves here is you. What a vile thing to say about a man who has recently died.

Honestly, your argument is getting more and more twisted and nonsensical. You're running around accusing everyone of 'lacking moral fibre' and asserting that those who don't agree with you feel that Lawler deserved to die. It's pathetic.

Mr. Nice Guy, as was pointed out earlier, you are a hypocrite. I suspect that you would be perfectly accepting of criticism of Lawler two days ago and yet today people who criticise him are somehow 'lacking in moral fibre'. I ask you why? There is nothing that can be done. We can't bring him back from the dead and none of us are responsible for his death so we're simply reflecting on his life and heinous raping of us as a nation. If you want to be remembered fondly in death, don't screw people over in life! As for us being nasty pieces of work for slating him when his corpse is still warm... well.. what difference does it make? Tell me Mr. Nice Guy, when would it be acceptable for us to criticise Lawler's actions again? One week? A month? A year? Is there anything in The Mr. Nice Guy Handbook that will give us some indication? Or can we never criticise him again because he's dead now? Please tell me your stance on this issue as I am genuinely curious.

MrJoeSoap

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Has it been confirmed that she was as old as that ?

I've seen 15/16/teenager. Seems very young for someone to be an interpreter to me.

black_jack

kstanl wrote:

I don't know if she was diseased.

Then don't call her a diseased whore.

No more than you know that she was a victim of trafficing.

She is more than likely to be.

If she was in fact working as a prostitute, then she's a whore. It's a fact albeit a matter of semantics. If you find that offensive then I suggest you crawl back under your rock. :rolleyes:

Crawl back under my rock? You're the one dehumanising a child by calling her a diseased whore. I'd suggest you'd look at her more as a victim in all this than some tramp.

Hagar

The best part of this whole thread is that I get an email
every few mins telling me "Liam Lawlor is dead".

kstanl

black_jack wrote:

Then don't call her a diseased whore.

Okay, then she's (allegedly) a just whore.

black_jack wrote:

She is more than likely to be.

She's more than likely to be diseased too if she's working as a prostitute. Neither of us know what % of prostitutes are infected with disease nor do we know what % of prostitutes in that part of the world are victims of trafficing so we'll just stop speculating now shall we? Besides, we're off the point... which was that Lawler was (allegedly) sleeping with a prostitute behind his wife's back.

black_jack wrote:

Crawl back under my rock? You're the one dehumanising a child by calling her a diseased whore. I'd suggest you'd look at her more as a victim in all this than some tramp.

Like I said, neither of us know whether she was a victim of trafficing or a willing prostitute by choice. Maybe she was a victim, maybe she was greedy - who knows. But at the end of the day, if you're a prostitute then you're a whore... it's just a matter of semantics. If you don't like the term then crawl under a rock/stick your fingers in your ears/do whatever it is you do to escape from reality. There's nothing offensive about calling a prostitute a whore, black_jack. They're the same thing. My remark about diseases was more to illustrate the point that Lawler may well have been taking some nasty diseases back to his wife - and I thought it was a point worth illustrating. Sorry if the harsh reality of my comment was too cruel for you. :rolleyes:

At the end of the day, this woman may well have been a translator and this whole prostitute thing could just be a smear campaign by the media. Again, we don't know.

MrJoeSoap

kstanl you are making a terrible argument. Saying that a teenage prostitute (if she is in fact a prostitute) might be "greedy" is just ridiculous. Your "diseased whore" remark was uncalled for.

black_jack

kstanl wrote:

Okay, then she's (allegedly) a just whore.

Well thats the first part of my issue.

She's more than likely to be diseased too if she's working as a prostitute. Neither of us know what % of prostitutes are infected with disease nor do we know what % of prostitutes in that part of the world are victims of trafficing so we'll just stop speculating now shall we?

You're the one speculating, I know a bit about people trafficking

One of the areas of the world where trafficking is growing fastest is the former Soviet Union. Human trafficking from Ukraine , especially for sex work, is a serious and increasing problem for the country. Evidence exists from a wide variety of sources including police, NGOs, health care providers, prosecutors and international organizations of the widespread and increasing nature of the problem. Following a recent study by the International Organization of Migration (IOM), reference is now being made to 420,000 women having been trafficked out of the country in the last few years alone

from
www.american.edu/traccc/resources/publications/pyschu01.doc

While it's possible she's diseased, it's likely she's been trafficked. All the more likely as when found at the scene she had no papers.

Besides, we're off the point... which was that Lawler was (allegedly) sleeping with a prostitute behind his wife's back.

Refering to the girl as a diseased whore, is offensive, Lawler sleeping with a near child, who's not doing this of her own free will makes this that little bit worse.

Like I said, neither of us know whether she was a victim of trafficing or a willing prostitute by choice. Maybe she was a victim, maybe she was greedy - who knows.

Greedy? Channel four showed a remarkable and disturbing documentary on this subject a few weeks ago, I very much doubt she saw most of her money.

But at the end of the day, if you're a prostitute then you're a whore... it's just a matter of semantics. If you don't like the term then crawl under a rock/stick your fingers in your ears/do whatever it is you do to escape from reality. There's nothing offensive about calling a prostitute a whore, black_jack. They're the same thing.

Yes there, the term whore is degroitory, offensive, and dehumanising, and suggests she was a willing partner in all this.

My remark about diseases was more to illustrate the point that Lawler may well have been taking some nasty diseases back to his wife - and I thought it was a point worth illustrating. Sorry if the harsh reality of my comment was too cruel for you. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah you be keeping it real.

At the end of the day, this woman may well have been a translator and this whole prostitute thing could just be a smear campaign by the media. Again, we don't know.

A smear campaign by the media? The Moscow police idenitified her as a possible prostitute. Have you been following this at? :rolleyes:

Pigman II

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I've seen 15/16/teenager. Seems very young for someone to be an interpreter to me.

Maybe she wasn't a professional interpreter? Perhaps she just had a smattering of English and was giving Liam some oral relief to earn herself a few extra roubles.

kstanl

MrJoeSoap wrote:

kstanl you are making a terrible argument.

What part of my argument do you find flaw with please? Or do you just like to make silly sweeping comments. :rolleyes:

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Saying that a teenage prostitute (if she is in fact a prostitute) might be "greedy" is just ridiculous.

We don't know that she was a teenager first of all. And saying that she's greedy is no more ridiculous than saying that she is a victim of trafficing. Are you completely naive or do you in fact realise that many prositiutes choose to work as prostitutes because the money can be very good? I know you probably can't fathom that any woman would choose to be a prostitute - neither can I to be honest - but there are plenty of prostitutes out there who work in brothels rather than get a minimum wage job because the money is good.

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Your "diseased whore" remark was uncalled for.

Which part was uncalled for? Prostitute = Whore. I would imagine a considerably high percentage of prostitutes have STD's. I'm sorry, but the moral wankery/thought police brigade argument is wearing thin. Whether you call her 'a prostitute that may have sexually transmitted diseases' or 'a diseased whore' makes fook all difference. If she's a victim of trafficing then I have sympathy for her; of course I do. Stop with your pathetic, self-perpetuating moral arguments. None of us have enough information on the circumstances of her life as yet but the allegation is that this woman was a prostitute. What more do you want???? :rolleyes:

kstanl

black_jack wrote:

Well thats the first part of my issue.



You're the one speculating, I know a bit about people trafficking


from
www.american.edu/traccc/resources/publications/pyschu01.doc

While it's possible she's diseased, it's likely she's been trafficked. All the more likely as when found at the scene she had no papers.



Refering to the girl as a diseased whore, is offensive, Lawler sleeping with a near child, who's not doing this of her own free will makes this that little bit worse.



Greedy? Channel four showed a remarkable and disturbing documentary on this subject a few weeks ago, I very much doubt she saw most of her money.



Yes there, the term whore is degroitory, offensive, and dehumanising, and suggests she was a willing partner in all this.

Again you're assuming that she was a victim of trafficing. What if she wasn't? How is it likely? How do you know what % of sex workers in Russia are trafficing victims? You don't. You only know what you've Google'd or seen on telly; i.e. you know no more than me. We're both speculating, we're both making assumptions and we're both miles off-topic. :rolleyes:

black_jack wrote:

Oh yeah you be keeping it real.

Pretty much, yeah.

black_jack wrote:

A smear campaign by the media? The Moscow police idenitified her as a possible prostitute. Have you been following this at? :rolleyes:

What? That the police have identified her as a possible prostitute? Yeah. I have. What's your point? :rolleyes:

MrJoeSoap

Okay, the situation as presented by the Irish Independent is that she is a teenage Ukranian, most likely a prostitute. If this is the case, then she is more than likely a victim of traficking.

Until we know for certain, which we may never do, I would personally refrain from calling her a "diseased whore". It shows a serious lack of sympathy.

secret_squirrel

Can we all drop the issue of the Ukranian girl now lads it getting tiresome.

The fact is we dont know for certain whether she was any of the below :

whore
diseased
trafficked
or
an interpreter

Until we get concrete proof of one or more of them can we finish the flame wars and get back to Lawlor?

MrJoeSoap

No problemo squirrel, getting a bit tired of it myself anyway. I heard a Lawlor interview on rte.ie earlier from 2002 where he was saying how his conscience was completely clear and he had no trouble sleeping. Thats one of the main reasons people are getting so worked up about his death, he showed no guilt over what he had done, even after his few weeks in the joy.

HelterSkelter

The online edition of the Independent have removed all references to the girl being a prostitute.

The General

Ireland is full of people who moan non stop and this thread proves it

MrJoeSoap

Nice contribution there general. I'm sure plenty of people on this thread have been involved in lots of upbeat discussions today too. This just happens to be a topic that annoys people one way or another, if you don't like hearing people "moan" maybe you should steer clear of threads about corrupt politicians. But then I guess this post proves your point!

Lisapeep

The latest news says that the woman passenger in the car was a legal secretary and interpreter. It's a terribly sad story and must be so tough for the family.

kstanl

The General wrote:

Ireland is full of people who moan non stop and this thread proves it

Ironic. Thanks for that ground-shattering contribution. Haha. You're right though, I don't plan on moaning about corrupt politicians who screw the entire country again. In fact, they should just be allowed do what they want. :rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy

black_jack wrote:

I never said Lawlor deserved to die.

As I say, your position is quite clear.

black_jack wrote:

No it's not. Again you're mispresenting me.

LOL.

black_jack wrote:

No, thats not hyporcrisy. If I was berating Lawlor's behaviour while I was on the take that'd be hyprocrisy. Is english your second language?

Your hypocrisy is evident. By the way, I love the irony of someone who cannot spell hypocrisy asking me if English is my second language. LOL!

black_jack wrote:

Mocking spelling in an internet debate is the last act of a failing argument.

black_jack wrote:

as for the clueless muppet part, hey if the hat fits.

Resorting to insults is the last act of a failing argument although I think your argument failed long ago considering you argue that the man's family don't deserve our respect on the grounds that Lawlor didn't show them respect.:rolleyes:

black_jack wrote:

I was merely putting your attitude into its wider context.

You were putting words in my mouth. Sad that you resort to that.

black_jack wrote:

Is his family on this message board?

I should hope not considering it was you who said:

"he didn't have much respect for his family, so why should I?"

black_jack wrote:

Ah the euphemism are already in.Now the teenager with Lawlor is a "translator". Do you really think you get a teenage Ukraninan girl to act as a translator for a former Irish TD in Moscow?

Ah the conspiracy theorists are in!

black_jack wrote:

Hey Niceguy did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the english dictionary.

You mean you looked? That doesn't surprise me.:D

kstanl wrote:

Honestly, your argument is getting more and more twisted and nonsensical. You're running around accusing everyone of 'lacking moral fibre' and asserting that those who don't agree with you feel that Lawler deserved to die. It's pathetic.

What's pathetic is this quote from you:

"he was a f**king scumbag who stole from us all and who, it turns out, may have been humping diseased whores behind his wife's back."

kstanl wrote:

Mr. Nice Guy, as was pointed out earlier, you are a hypocrite.

Actually no one pointed out why I am a hypocrite, just that I am one. If you can explain to me why I'm a hypocrite I'll gladly hear you out.:)

kstanl wrote:

I suspect that you would be perfectly accepting of criticism of Lawler two days ago and yet today people who criticise him are somehow 'lacking in moral fibre'.

Eh? I'm criticising the callous disregard shown to the man's family by certain people on this thread. Keep up.

kstanl wrote:

we're simply reflecting on his life and heinous raping of us as a nation.

Raping of us as a nation? Dear oh dear.:rolleyes:

kstanl wrote:

As for us being nasty pieces of work for slating him when his corpse is still warm... well.. what difference does it make?

LOL. Unbelievable.

kstanl wrote:

Tell me Mr. Nice Guy, when would it be acceptable for us to criticise Lawler's actions again? One week? A month? A year? Is there anything in The Mr. Nice Guy Handbook that will give us some indication? Or can we never criticise him again because he's dead now? Please tell me your stance on this issue as I am genuinely curious.

Most people don't need a time frame. They have enough decency and respect within themselves to be able give the man's family respect.

Lisapeep

This thread is becoming very insensitive, anyone want to do something about this?