Restoring a 3-bed-semi....various costs please??

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

Now you can begin to understand what I enjoy about restoration work, nothing is ever the same ergo no boredom

I was stripping off an old roof one time and found old orange cases had been used as slating laths on one section, another was a flat roof where a "Downes Bakery" bread board had been used to fix a hole in the decking from an old gas flue.

That house is telling you a lot of stories about the previous owners and the changes they made over the years.

Enjoy

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Dinarius

How does OSB compare with marine ply in terms of its suitability as underflooring?

Can I lay tiles (big or small) on it?

Can I lay solid or semi-solid wood floors on it?

The difference in price is huge!

Thanks.

D.

e.hartery

there is some stuff on a new site www.helpmebuildandrenovate.com, not sure where it leads or if much help.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

The nearest equal to marine ply you will get using OSB is Smart Ply 3, an excellent product that not only passed the IAB tests but I left sections of a cut sheet out in the weather and it was every bit as good as the new sheet.

Make double sure the OSB sheet you get is Smart Ply 3 there are many variations of oriented strand board available.

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gregos

Hi Dinarius. You certainly can lay solid wooden floors on it, and you'll get great results.

Pete, if you leave OSB3 out in the rain for long, it will swell up a bit, especially at the edges, which can cause big problems matching it with dry stuff. I know this, having wasted a few sheets throug carelessness.

Dinarius

Thanks guys.

I will certainly make sure it's Smart Ply 3.

Electrician's and plumber's first fixes are almost done now.

Still haven't nailed down a builder (excuse the pun!).

Very tempted to employ and joiner and plasterer seperately now, since they would cover about 90% of my needs.

We'll see!

D.

Edited: Just confirmed.........Buckley's OSB is Smart Ply 3.

Dinarius

I have come across a few recommendations that tiles should not be laid on OSB, at least not directly.

The school of thought is that it's OK to lay tiles on OSB that is in turn laid on, for example, tongue and groove flooring, but not with the OSB alone on the joists. Seems it isn't rigid enough.

The recommendation is that you use plywood.

D.

Dinarius

Got a quote for the following........

1. Replace guttering at back of house.

2. Connect new understairs loo to existing AJ at back of house.

3. Construct stud wall understairs loo compartment.

4. Block up existing kitchen door (to accommodate loo) and open up new door on same wall.

5. Dryline one external wall in each of three bedrooms and both external walls in bathroom.

6. Construct party wall in garage, dividing it in two and creating utility room. Dryline, insulate and raise concrete floor.

7. Plaster interior, repairing all electrical and plumbing chasing, and producing finish suitable for painting - NOT just wallpapering.

Cost €11,000 plus VAT.

Too much? Too little? Ballpark?

Thanks.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Diarius,

If you keep showing prices like that for such a long list I may as well put the tools into storage and sell the transport

OK there is a smiley at the end of that sentence but in all honesty I want the names and phone numbers of the people doing the work for those prices, but only if they can do the job properly.

A quick glance says to me you have either a great bargain or a beginner in business who doesn't understand the difference between employee and self employed with all the overheads that go with the latter title

I don't have a problem with the "cheap n cheerful" outfits because I make more real money correcting their mistakes, the price versus the list does not make sense to me but then I haven't seen the true amount of work involved.

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lomb

Out of interest rooferpete what kind of time is involved for one man to do items 1 to 7 inclusive to a good standard (ie what id regard as a commercial standard not a gunter standard )and what is the cost of materials for a reasonable average job.

Dinarius

rooferPete wrote:

A quick glance says to me you have either a great bargain or a beginner in business who doesn't understand the difference between employee and self employed with all the overheads that go with the latter title

I don't have a problem with the "cheap n cheerful" outfits because I make more real money correcting their mistakes, the price versus the list does not make sense to me but then I haven't seen the true amount of work involved.

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Peter,

Your response is very interesting.

This company came highly recommended to me. A client of mine had used them.

A builder friend of mine (and long time bridge partner, who I trust implicitly and who would be doing this job for me only he is snowed under with work until the New Year) thought that their price was more than a tad rich. I won't repeat what he said. In fairness to him, he made that comment in connection with the entire quotation, which I mentioned above. But, pro rata, he still has a problem with paying this for the above list. His advice is, get a labourer to do it.

The €11k is just a portion of the entire quote - the dirty work, if you will - which will allow my plumber and electrician to get in and complete second fix. After that, the joiner/carpenter can come in and complete the job. (The builder's quote for the joinery - hang nine doors, all architraves, door frames, skirting, lay sheets of OSB throughout and lay semi-solid floors in five rooms was €7.5k. With no materials costs involved, I thought I could do better and I can. So, they won't be doing that.) We will paint the place ourselves.

For various reasons, I have decided to put some of the jobs on the back-burner (they really can wait), do some myself (mostly demolition and skip filling, which I have been doing all day. Very therapeutic!) and some which I will get others to do later (all outside the house). We wanted to kill them all off at once, but our priority is to get in.

I am having the entire house replumbed, g.f.c.h. installed (eight rads and the boiler supplied by me, everything else by the plumber), new bathroom suites and thermo shower as well as downstairs loo (all supplied by me) plus extras like two attic tanks, a very large hot water cylinder, a water pressure pump, two coal effect gas fires, etc...all supplied by the plumber. He has had two people in the house for five days now. He reckons on one more day of first fix, followed by 1-2 days of second fix and then testing. This is costing €9k including VAT.

The electrician is doing a total rewire including CAT5e and coax throughout the house and all in duplicate. He is supplying everything except sockets and switches. His employee (outstanding and I will use him alone at any time in the future. The electrician is on holidays!) has been there for six days on first fix. He has another 1-2 days to go. Then second fix and testing. Total cost is €6k plus VAT.

Please persuade me otherwise, but I cannot get my head around paying €11k including VAT for what I have listed above. I will pay it if only to get to the second fix/joinery stage and also because the biggest bit, the plastering, is something I will be extremely fussy about. I am told they're good and we'll have to look at it ad nauseam!

In fairness to you, as you indicated above, you haven't seen the extent of the work. But, I promise you, it is literally as I describe. I did omit one thing....creating an opening in the main bathroom for an extractor fan.

D.

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

At a guess I would say one skilled tradesman (multi skilled) with a helper 10 > 14 days.

Connecting to the AJ depends a lot on the distance between the WC and the AJ and the type of floor.

The stud wall under the stairs can take more time than it appears because of the confined working space.

Blocking up a door depends on the standard required, eg leave the frame in place or remove it and have the wall finish level both sides with good sound insulation and a plaster finish.

Opening the new door depends on the type of wall, stud or block and if lintels are required or not, then the frame fitted and the door hung with the surrounding area made good.

Dry lining depends on the standard of the work required, a board can be blobbed on (also called dry lining) or the walls lathed, insulated, slabbed and skimmed.

Construct party wall, I presume this to be a studded partion and the garage not used to store a car again, raising the floor depends on the height it needs to be raised, as concrete was mentioned I expect no more than 100 mm (no mention of DPC).

Making good after the electrician and plumber to a quality standard in three bed, well that's easy it took a skilled plasterer approximately 8 > 12 hours on the last job we did.

Item 1 depends on the type of gutters and the condition of the facia board but time wise a days work except for seamless about 4 hours mostly preparation.

Materials would require a proper survey, however I understood Dinarius was supplying most if not all the materials for his project.

Some items missing from the list are internal and external vents, extractor fan for WC skirting and architraves, downpipe and waste disposal.

lomb

cheers

Dinarius

rooferPete wrote:

Connecting to the AJ depends a lot on the distance between the WC and the AJ and the type of floor.

The distance is 15', approximately. There is adequate slope from the w.c. to the AJ running the pipe just under the joists since the joists are about 18" clear of the foundation. So, the builder only has to break through one foundation support of about 12" and then the exterior wall.

The stud wall under the stairs can take more time than it appears because of the confined working space.

Fair comment.

Blocking up a door depends on the standard required, eg leave the frame in place or remove it and have the wall finish level both sides with good sound insulation and a plaster finish.

It will be a block wall. I hadn't thought about leaving or removing the frame. Since the new wall will be one wall of the downstairs loo and shelved on the kitchen side, I don't mind whether the frame stays or goes. But, the finish has got to be good! ;-)

Opening the new door depends on the type of wall, stud or block and if lintels are required or not, then the frame fitted and the door hung with the surrounding area made good.

The wall is block. A lintel is required.

Dry lining depends on the standard of the work required, a board can be blobbed on (also called dry lining) or the walls lathed, insulated, slabbed and skimmed.

I want to use Kingspan Thermalboard(? Can't remember the exact name. Saw it yesterday in Buckley's) in the bedrooms, which will be studded directly to the wall. No battens. Battens in the bathroom to create a bit more depth for the shower mechanism.

Construct party wall, I presume this to be a studded partion and the garage not used to store a car again, raising the floor depends on the height it needs to be raised, as concrete was mentioned I expect no more than 100 mm (no mention of DPC).

No. Block wall. Insulated on the utility side.

Making good after the electrician and plumber to a quality standard in three bed, well that's easy it took a skilled plasterer approximately 8 > 12 hours on the last job we did.

8-12 hours! I thought that would take the longest. Just shows the steep learning curve! ;-)

Item 1 depends on the type of gutters and the condition of the facia board but time wise a days work except for seamless about 4 hours mostly preparation.

Materials would require a proper survey, however I understood Dinarius was supplying most if not all the materials for his project.

I am only paying for the insulation board for the 3 bedrooms. All the other 'dirty' stuff included in the quote.

Some items missing from the list are internal and external vents, extractor fan for WC skirting and architraves, downpipe and waste disposal.

D.

Dinarius

Is a 4" solid block wall adequate for the party wall in the garage? Or should it be 9" or cavity block?

Thanks.

D.

Dinarius

I am having the gutters, soffits and facias done.

The surveyor, in his report on the house, said that we should consider putting vents in the soffits.

All three of the guttering contractors that I have spoken to said that this is unnecessary since air enters the attic at the facia.

They want to cover (not replace) the existing soffits with maintenance-free aluminium with vents every 16" to allow air to circulate around the original wooden soffit that will be underneath.

Does all this make sense?

Many thanks.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

It appears that you have been either very lucky or met three total idiots, the old system of depending on the attic to vent at the facia level where the tile overhangs went out a long time ago.

Today attics have or should have a lot of insulation that was never thought of pre 1970 and even during the early 80's the amounts used were practically useless so the amount of air leaking into the roofspace was more by accident than design.

You could be lucky if the three gents have seen something nobody else knows about, if that is the case it would be nice of them to share their knowledge with the every professional in the building industry.

The existing soffit should have holes drilled in it above the new vents to allow a through flow of air through the roofspace, if you must insist on this then I recommend you stay and watch the work being done to make sure it is done properly.

New houses have vented soffits and some of the better builders are including a vent above the facia level as well to allow for the depth of insulation, they also have vent tiles both back and front to ensure the air can have proper circulation.

My advice for what it's worth is keep looking until you find an installer who can offer this advice without being prompted.

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Dinarius

Peter,

All three of the contractors I called have quarter page ads in the Golden Pages. For what it's worth.........;-)

I will speak with them again.

One did say that if you drill holes in the soffits, then along with the air entering at the facia you would have drafts in the attic. Not sure what the difference is between air circulating and drafts, but there you go.

If we convert the attic, presumably the circulation is stopped. How does this affect the moisture situation then? Obviously it isn't a problem because millions of attics have been converted. But, why isn't it?

Thanks as always.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

Ad size to me can be a sign they are not getting enough referrals to drop the big outlay on big ads every year.

Why Talk to them again ?

I don't mind posting to help the homeowner but I draw the line at free education for what may be competitors, keep calling until you get a contractor who knows how to do the job and more important why he is doing it a certain way.

Drafts sounds like a great story for the Old Ladies who have lived all their lives in drafty houses and want them air tight for their old age.

Yes the attic will need ventilation when converted, take care that the contractor knows the soffit vents they will be depending on are actually dummies, so it's pay now or pay later

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lomb

Rooferpete, i rang the golden pages up and they gave me some prices, a full page colour ad in the 01 directory is 34k+vat, a half page b+w is 7+vat, so thats alot of money. id say it probably pays for itself though in all lines of business. maybe the ones with the ads are multi person businesses and need referrels to keep everyone busy?

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

It's my business to know who my real competitors are and I do have some advertising in the Golden Pages.

The last ad I placed with them I ended up between a drug baron using the roofing business as a cover, the other side was a gent convicted of murder running his business from a cell in Mountjoy.

I dropped my ad the following year and they replaced it almost word for word for a person with a similar name to mine.

I have been listed or advertising in that book for well over twenty years and I have watched the names come and go, the enquiries I get from that book are from people who have copies that are some ten years old.

Caveat Emptor.

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Dinarius

The renovation is now nearing the final stages. Builder and plumber have been outstanding. Electrician, despite earlier impressions to the contrary, has been a nightmare. I sacked his assistant/delgate and have given the electrician himself until the end of the week to finish the job.

The carpenter comes in next week.

The main thing I have learned is that if you want to finish your house in anything other than the bog standard fare that can be seen in just about every house built here, order WAY in advance. Nothing can be had off the shelf.

MK make some of the nicest electrical fittings on the market. But, they have the worst representation in this country that I have ever had the misfortune to deal with. Never again. When this is over I intend to contact MK directly and formally complain. Their agents are first rate tossers and two electrical wholesalers that I used for other gear said that they no longer deal with MK's agent here. One said that they go 'up North'. Another said that they deal with MK's previous agent here in Dublin, who apparently have maintained some contact with them.

Another thing (and RooferPete may disagree with me on this).....those in all areas related to building have it too easy at the moment. If I was given €100 for every promised quote which never arrived, I would have most of this renovation paid for.

Haggle for everything. If you pay the going rate, you are being screwed. Particularly so on materials, not so much on labour. I got 65% off the price of radiators from one of the bigger builders' providers, for example.

On a related matter...........

We have a basement apartment whose front door is set into the steps leading to the overhead duplex. The steps are allowing water through and our little entrance hall is a bit damp at times. We want to have it dealt with once and for all. This must be a fairly common occurrence.

I contacted The Damp Store for a quotation. They wanted €200 just to come and 'survey' the situation which would be deductible from the final bill. Obviously, this would preclude me from getting another quote (see what I mean about having it too easy?) so I said no thanks. You have been warned.

Can anyone recommend another company that deals with such problems?

Many thanks.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

"Another thing (and RooferPete may disagree with me on this).....those in all areas related to building have it too easy at the moment. If I was given €100 for every promised quote which never arrived, I would have most of this renovation paid for."

I certainly would not disagree with you on that subject see ? I am also a consumer

As to non refundable deposits for what are professional surveys I have been charging for them for years long before any Celtic tiger.

A lot of people have received detailed surveys, specifications and costings then went with the cheapest price using my knowledge.

I think you will find a lot more Professionals doing the same thing in the future especially as the trades are being broken up into different sectors.

There are still plenty of competitors who don't charge for surveys or advice, so you are not limited to the likes of me or the Dampstore.

Glads to see you are almost completed, I hope you enjoy the fruits of your labour, there's nothing like looking back at a job well done.

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FX Meister

Dinarius, I've used MK stuff a lot before and never had any problems. I get it from the North from http://www.meteorelectrical.com/, free delivery and if you have a Vat number vat gets taken off at source. Never had problems with returns either.

Dinarius

FX Meister wrote:

I get it from the North from http://www.meteorelectrical.com/, free delivery and if you have a Vat number vat gets taken off at source. Never had problems with returns either.

Noted! Many thanks. I knew there had to be an easier way.

RooferPete, on the subject of the water leak......I don't need a 'survey'. I know exactly what is wrong. I need a quotation. The approach adopted by the successful bidder is their concern. If I don't like the sound of it, I'll go elsewhere. ;-)

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

It is possible for all members of the public to purchase materials direct from the Dampstore, that may be the cheapest way to go,

While I am not a customer of the Dampstore myself the last time I had reason to look at a product sold by them it came complete with detailed instructions that were easy to follow.

After the work you have all but completed applying the materials should be easy enough for you.

.

Dinarius

Peter,

Thanks for that. DIY isn't a runner given that this is an apartment situation. Costs will be covered by management funds. Also, there are guarantees to consider for the future.

D.

Dinarius

Time to resurrect this thread!

Almost finished the renovation. Has been a very steep learning curve. Would have taken a lot less time if we had gone for an "off the shelf" look.

But, opting instead for a more specific finish meant waiting for materials (the door hinges for all the internal doors came from Denmark, the door handles from Italy) and a consequent delay.

Generalizing greatly, my experience has been that tradesmen are excellent, but suppliers are appalling. With the latter, you can haggle for a price that both of you are happy with, but service is a word that isn't in their vocabulary. No doubt, the fact that I was a small time, cash client, greatly influenced this. But, at times I wondered how some of these people stay in business. However, there were exceptions in both cases. My electrician was a disaster, for example.

Anyway, back to the house.........

I have laid solid mahogany flooring and solid teak flooring, both untreated. Having sampled four different stains, we have opted for a mahogany colour and a teak colour for each. (surprise! surprise!).

What I want to know is, what are my options for putting on top of the stain. Most people I have spoken to recommend a water based clear acrylic. This can then be waxed over time allowing a patina to develop on the wood.

Any other thoughts?

Many thanks.

D.