Restoring a 3-bed-semi....various costs please??

lomb

can i ask how much does a solicitor charge for a pre auction title and contracts check? are we talking more than 700 euros?cheers

Dinarius

Question:

The house next door to the house we're hoping to buy has extended over the garage. To do this they extended the party wall up to a height greater than the gutter level. The wall was then capped and rendered. It looks fine.

We had the house surveyed the other day and the surveyor said that, because of the rendering, he cannot tell whether the wall extension was built using solid block (which is the correct way, apparently) or cavity block.

The owners of the house are away, so I haven't been able to speak to them.

However, yesterday I spoke to neighbours a few doors down who, as it happens, have just completed an extension over their garage. Their next door neighbours had done the same thing a few years ago and had correctly extended the party wall. i.e. It was done using solid block.

Questions:

1. Is ownership of the wall shared, even after a period of time has lapsed? The neighbours we spoke with yesterday said that the usual arrangement is, "You build it and we own it." i.e. If, at any stage in the future, we want to extend over our garage, we can do so without asking your permission.

2. If cavity block was used, would this affect our ability to extend over our garage? I understand that the main reasons for using solid block are fire and noise regulations. But, if we can live with those, are there any structural implications? That would be a deal breaker for us.

3. How does one support a floor in such an arrangement? Do you punch holes in the party wall for the joists? Or do you have to build support inside the party wall? If we had to do that, it would greatly reduce the floor area.

The neighbours we spoke to yesterday seem to have sorted things out just fine. But, I forgot to ask them about supporting the floor..........!

Answers welcome! ;-)

Many thanks.

D.

Dinarius

lomb wrote:

can i ask how much does a solicitor charge for a pre auction title and contracts check? are we talking more than 700 euros?cheers

I have no idea.

I am using her for the sale of another building and she's doing very well out of it, so I hope that the quick read of the title will cost me little or nothing!

D

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

If the extension has planning permission the chances are it was also subject to bye law approval, the bye laws were the the pre building regs way of keeping standards and were very important, so check the local planning office some may tell you over the telephone, I had a copy of both PP incl conditions and bye law approval faxed to me a couple of weeks ago.

The purpose of the solid wall being built was to enable the neighbour to join to it at any time in the future without losing space needed for another wall.

The way things are today I couldn't see a cavity wall blocking your building plans in some cases today it would be seen as an improvement.

Simple enough to support the floor, I wouldn't worry about it.

"A Scandinavian or North American climate would have obliged us to build properly from the word go. Pity."

I can't comment on Sweden but North America ? what makes you think they know how to build properly ?

I have a nice consulting business supported by the States in North America and Canada, they have so many problems some multi million dollar houses are being demolished and started again.

Our construction methods are heading in that direction, it's the new Americanised methods I would be worried about not the old type built for ever houses.

Don't believe all the hype you hear from across the ocean, they have big problems.

.

Dinarius

rooferPete wrote:

Hi Dinarius,

If the extension has planning permission the chances are it was also subject to bye law approval, the bye laws were the the pre building regs way of keeping standards and were very important, so check the local planning office some may tell you over the telephone, I had a copy of both PP incl conditions and bye law approval faxed to me a couple of weeks ago.

The purpose of the solid wall being built was to enable the neighbour to join to it at any time in the future without losing space needed for another wall.

The way things are today I couldn't see a cavity wall blocking your building plans in some cases today it would be seen as an improvement.

Simple enough to support the floor, I wouldn't worry about it.

Pete,

Many thanks.

I actually called Dun Laoghaire Rathdown CC Planning Office the other day. They only have computerised records going back to 1999. Before that it's strictly file retrieval only. So, I'll have to check that out.

My main concerns are that we don't lose any space trying to support a floor, nor that we haven't already been short changed by the existing wall having been built on 'our' property.

But, I presume that the extension of the wall would have to be supported by the old garage party wall, so it must be on the actual boundary. Therefore, I assume (hope!) that we will have the same area to work with.

Thanks again.

D.

ps....My comment about other building standards was simply that, for example, in Canada temperatures swing from about +30c in summer to -40c in winter. A seventy degree annual swing requires pretty serious insulation and draft control. I recently saw a programme on tv about how they test new builds for draft exculsion. Serious appliance of science! ;-)

Dinarius

Looks like the house deal is going to go through..........

First thing we'll have to do is install central heating. It will be gas. What should I bear in mind? What are the options over and above the bog standard boiler plus radiators?

One thing I have always found with the hot water tanks in three bed semis is that they are never big enough to allow a really deep bath. Is the solution to install a larger tank or to run water from the heating system directly into the bath. Is this even possible? Even if it is possible, what does one do in summer when the heating system is off? Shower? ;-)

Thanks.

D

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

Congratulations on your purchase

When dealing with the contractor set out your requirments on paper, if an Architect does it we call it a specification.

There is no reason why you can't have a larger capacity cylinder and the heating system set to only heat the water when you don't need the full heating system working.

A lot of what appear to be small details do effect the prices you will be getting, so make sure you have all what appear to be your concerns / requirements written down.

Each contractor will then be pricing to the same specification, that removes any cause for dispute or worse a customer who is not happy with the finished product.

.

Dinarius

Having spoken at length with our surveyor about his report, this is what we are going to do.

1. New bathroom. We have chosen the suite and will supply it to the plumber.

2. Central heating. We are supplying the system. I took it from a building that I sold to purchase the house. We may need to add a radiator or two. We will also need a new emersion and water tank in the attic. No big deal.

3. Rewiring. We will supply all sockets and switches and most of the wiring. I can get it at near cost.

4. Replastering, wooden flooring downstairs, new skirting boards, insulation under the floors, new ceilings(?). Maybe new doors too.

The central heating and plumbing will be done by direct labour. I know the guy.

Ditto the wiring.

The builder who will look after 4. above is the only one I don't have.

What I want to know is this............

What order should I do this in?

Do I get the builder in first to gut the house in preparation for the other two?

If the answer is yes, who's next? The electrician or the plumber?

Once we have this done, we can move in and think about extending over the garage and converting the attic next year.

Anyone care to guesstimate cost for that lot? Labour and building materials only. The rest I will be supplying.

Thanks.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

I have Potential Customers / Clients who call me on the telephone, in the course of the conversation they may supply me with basic details like square metres or width by length of the building.

Then I have the project that has full drawings and specifications, some even have time schedules etc.

I never price anything "Blind" the only way you will you get prices that are even close to accurate is by each contractor visiting the work site and going through your requirements, maybe even making suggestions about work practices.

I never charge for labour

.

mad m

Ah the poor auld painter doesnt even get a look in...

Id say get the electrics all done before the plumbing.And then plastering after the rewire.You are always going to have snagging.Or when plumber is testing system after everything is done(there might be leaks),but thats what pressure testing is for.

gamer

get wiring done first,u will need to get wiring checked,AND CERTIFIED BY ESSCA OR R.EC.I. REGISTERED MEMBER ,go to reci.ie for more info,esb will not switch on supply until they get A CERTIFICATE of compliance.LEAVE old floorboards open,walls unplastered as electrician will need to check all fittings wiring routes etc visual and resistance inspection.u can design routing for easier maintenance fault finding in future for acess at main junction boxs and wherte u have main cables distributed ie main cable routes ie where theres 7 or more twin esb cables .

Dinarius

Thanks guys.

D.

Patto

Dinarius,

Restored a very similar type house this year. Did nearly everything myself with help from family and friends. The house was a blank canvas. It first had to be stripped to the walls. I reckon the job cost €30K I could add the same again had I charged for my own and said family and friends labour. The finish is top class. And the house is within 3 miles of Dublin city centre (southside). At times I suspected that some of the contractors I got in to give quotes for jobs added 20% for the address.

This is a list of costs:
1. Windows. 8 windows and french doors (Bonner windows, found them very good) Cost 8K
2. New Kitchen and appliances. (Cash and Carry Kitchens and all Whirlpool appliances) Cost 5K
3. Complete gas heating system. Boiler, rads, plumbing etc. Put the system in with a plumber friend (he had never done Gas before). Had some fun with the regs and a faulty gas tap but got there in the end. Took a lot of time and saved about 2-3K doing it myself but this was one of the ones where the time/cost trade off didn't work out so well. Bought all heating stuff in OB heating in Cork. Dublin prices were insane. Cost 3K
4. Carpets 1K
5. Oak Floors 1K
6. New Oak bannister and handrail. 3 1/2 Oak knewl posts cost €400. Had to go to Westmeath to get them. The handrail, baserail and spindals were spares from a site. Cost €500
7. Insulated plaster board for all external walls. Cost €1.5K
8. Tiles, grout, tools for kitchen and bathroom. Cost €1K
9. Bathroom Suite €700
10. Beds. €700
11. Paint. €1K
12. Skips. €1K
13. Timber. (Skirting, doors, arcs etc) €1.5K
14. Plastering. 2.5K
15. Alarm. Took me more than 40 man hours to fit and troubleshoot for the sake of about €300. Still haven't programmed the damb thing. Cost €650
16. Electrics. Got away with it. The house was wired about 15 years ago. All the circuits had plenty power, just loops new connections were needed. Cost €300.
17. Sundries. New tools, tool hire, bits and pieces €1.5K
Total Cost: just over €30K
18. Satisfaction: Priceless.

Dinarius

Thanks for that. Very interesting.

Still haven't closed the sale. ;-(

Someone posted earlier in this thread that I should ensure that the rewiring job is certified, and they posted a link to an electricians' association site.

For the life of me, I can't find it. It may have been edited.

Could you please repost the link?

Thanks.

D

gamer

ww.reci.ie .i think theres also site for eccsa not sure, only members of reci or eccsa can give u cert.

chabsey

Sorry to jump in on this thread but I'm facing a very similiar situation.

Recently bought a 3 bed 1930's terraced house and it needs new wiring and new heating. I will do all the painting etc myself.

It's on the north side of Dublin in a nice area and the quotes we've got so far for wiring are in the region of 4K (this quote was from a guy who has done a number of houses on the same road, but hasn't actually seen our property, however,all the houses are very similar in the area).

That price was excluding VAT...but I've heard some people are negotiable on VAT!

Heating will cost us in the region of 5K for gas.

We've a very tight budget but have factored in the above costs (with a little leeway) and we're hoping that should be enough to cover us.

If anyone thinks we're way off, please post here, I'd prefer to be prepared!

Dinarius

Is it OK to run wiring under the raised floorboards, thus saving on the amount of chasing that has to be done on the walls?

Thanks.

D.

gamer

i think its ok to run esb wires under floorboards as far as i know just be careful where u place junction boxs connection points place near corners or wall edge to enable future testing maintenance and inspection,think electrician who gives cert may want to inspect all connection points for electrical or visual checks/testing purposes.be4 work starts u need contract stating what work will be done will ducting be hidden in walls floors etc will plastic or metal ducting be used will completion CERT BE PROVIDED, must be member of reci or eccsa to give cert.

patrido

yes it is ok, but the cables must be at least 2 inches below the floor, or else protected (i.e. contained in steel conduit). do yourself a favour and bury them well, you don't want to hit them with a drill bit or a nail.

Dinarius

Cheers guys.

Been looking at sockets and switches.

The choice isn't exactly startling. MK Electric is the most interesting I've seen so far. Personally, I like the continental style of wide rockers on the switch plates. This is the only one of that style in the MK range........

http://www.mkelectric.co.uk/products/item.asp?itemid=4201&rangeid=1030

But, I wouldn't mind looking at a few more if I had the choice. Any ideas?

Thanks.

D.

ps.......who is the main distributor for MK in Ireland? I've only seen them retail.

pps.....we are radio addicts. Having FM radio everywhere is more important to us than TV. We listen to BBC Radio 4 on FM via NTL's cable service all the time. If I get a few coax sockets put in around the house, is the cable and socket fitting (plug fitting) likely to change anytime soon with the move to digital? Or are we there already?

pps....a friend has table lamps which can be switched on with the wall switch just inside the door. I think he said they're 5 amp. The plugs are not stanard three pin, but smaller. What's the advantage of these, if any?

Ta.

D

Dinarius

Met with an electrician and agreed a price of €5750 plus VAT. That doesn't include the sockets and switches, which I am providing. It does include all wiring, fuse boards and conduits. So, that's sorted.........

Anyone ever tried to remove wood-chip wallpaper? What do they use to glue that junk to the wall? We will have to have the room replastered because of it. Any tips on removing that industrial strengty glue? Bloody stuff should be banned!

D.

gamer

u can get plug in sockets plug into esb sockets sets up ethernet connections to all rooms ,saves running wiring network speed 11megs for second,plugs into your pc or broadband router,ill post weblink when i get it,read review 2days ago. you will need earthing rod buried in ground 5ft ,deep.to provide earthing to mcb/fuseboard green yellow wire bout half inch think.essential to get a completion cert ,special document from electrician,must be registered electrician member of reci or ecssa to GIVE you a cert.aldi or lidl have range of lightswitchs on sale this week,4.99 each.

Dinarius

Had a very productive week during which we hired a skip and filled it with all sorts of junk - shelving, carpets, barrels etc...etc... We also stripped all the wallpaper. The house is now bare and ready to be renovated.

The electrician started his first fix yesterday. The plumber starts on Tuesday. Quote for the plumber is €9000 including VAT. This includes a complete replumb of the entire house; two new attic storage tanks; a 48 gallon hot water tank; fitting of dowstairs loo and main bathroom (I supply sanitary ware); gas "coal effect" fire in living-room; installation of gas cooker (I supply); installation of gas central heating system throughout the house (I supply radiators and boiler, he supplies the rest..expansion tank etc...) installation of electric shower pressure pump; etc....etc.... Spoke with a few people and the price seems OK. I've worked with this guy before and he finishes well.

So, all in, plumbing and electrics using high end materials and a high specification in the electrical fit out, will come to about €19k.

Still haven't nailed down a builder, if you'll excuse the pun! ;-) The main jobs we want are:

1. All new floors (treating the joists with preservative while they're exposed), doors, architraves and door frames. All materials to be supplied by us.

2. Construction of downstairs loo and connecting the loo to the main sewer.

3. Moving the door from the hall into the kitchen to one side to make space for the downstairs loo.

4. Constructing a party wall in the garage to divide it into 2/3 and 1/3 thereby creating a utility room at the back of it. This room would then be insulated, floored etc ....

5. Plastering the entire interior when the plumber and electrician are finished.

6. Reinstating the garage from its terrible playroom conversion. We provide the garage door.

7. Knocking the upstairs loo and bathroom into one room.

8. Some other demolition work such as a wall at the end of the garden and removing the forty odd years of grass cuttings behind it.

9. Other minor jobs such as fitting a couple of vents in the eaves. Filling a couple of settlement cracks etc...etc....

Best quote I've got for this is €22k. Materials such as wooden floors and doors will add another €6k, or so, which we supply.

Is this ball park? Or just Dublin prices? A friend in Cork who works for a large construction firm down there thinks it's nuts.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

D.

lomb

id say thats par for the course tbh. builders are like anyone else who are self employed and have expenses, they dont do anything for under 900 a day all in. it isnt long logging the money u are quoting. look at it this way, look at it as a percentage of your house, i heard 65 grand quoted for a remodelling of 1500 sq foot and 100 for a renovation, i think by the time u are done u will hit 65 grand. tis mad money but then there u are, thats the market rate, and everyone has to eat.

Dinarius

lomb,

thanks for that.

We are budgeting €50k and that's with a very good finish; solid oak, D-Line ironmongery, MK 'Edge' Range sockets and switches, etc....etc.... and we should hit that figure. The house will then be worth more than its total cost to us.

To be honest, once the electrician and plumber have finished, it's largely a case of high quality patching up (the exceptions being moving the door into the kitchen to along that wall and builiding a party wall in the garage and connecting the downstairs loo to the mains) which is why I am wondering should I go direct labour for the balance. For example, I'd love to use a first class joiner to do all the doors, floors and skirting, as well as a plasterer. If I didn't have the three structural jobs mentioned above, I would definitely go this route.

Decisions! Decisions!

Thanks.

D.

Dinarius

I need sheets of marine ply for under-flooring.

Any recommendations on Dublin based suppliers?

Has anyone laid tiles on ply? For large porcelain tiles the recommendation seems to be inserting a screw every 8 inches into the plywood. Then, if necessary, levelling compound should be used followed by attaching the tiles using a flexible adhesive. Make sense?

Many thanks.

D.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

The builders price looks good by today's standards considering the variety of trades being employed and the mixed size of the job, all trades will in fairness want a full days pay even if they only put in four hours due to the travelling time lost etc.

Regarding treating the timbers it might surprise you to know that one of the most cost effective ways of having this work done is to call in the number 1 professionals "Protim".

They know exactly what they are doing, no skimping on materials and an insurance backed warranty for twenty years when the work is finished, it is cheaper for me to sub the treatment work to them than it is to buy their materials and have it sprayed.

.

Dinarius

rooferPete wrote:

Regarding treating the timbers it might surprise you to know that one of the most cost effective ways of having this work done is to call in the number 1 professionals "Protim".


.

Peter,

Excellent suggestion! I owe you one.

Many thanks.

D.

ps. Went to Heiton Buckleys this morning to buy doors. I noticed that they sell solar panels. They are about 6' x 4' in size. They cost €5k. The guy said that you need planning permission to install them and that permission has never been refused. For a three bed semi two panels is the recommedation. This will provide about 50% of the average homes annual hot water. For us, having no kids, it is estimated that they would provide about 70% of all our water needs. After leaving Buckleys I bought the IT and on the front page is a story headed, "Average yearly gas bill for homes set to rise by €190"

Food for thought!

Wonder if you can get a grant for these?

pps. Peter, where do you buy your timber?

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

I have no particular favourites where timber is concerned because it's just a matter of negotiating the discount off the main price list all the suppliers work from.

I find Mc Mahons put up least resistance as do Ashbourne timber it really depends on which direction I am going, I try to avoid Chadwicks because having been an account holder for some twenty years I was always negotiating with them but even after an agreed discount the accounts dept would adjust the invoices.

Leave the Solar with me, there are no grants at the moment unless you are a big developer, tbh the Govt appear to have their heads in the sand where energy and the costs are concerned.

.

Dinarius

Is it normal for doorframes to have different depths in older houses?

I've been measuring them today and, while the frames set in masonry walls are (not surprisingly) wider than those in stud walls, even the stud walls are not all the same depth.

Odd!

Makes ordering the door frames that bit messier.

D.