Restoring a 3-bed-semi....various costs please??

Dinarius

My wife and I are currently bidding on a 1950's three bed semi in South Dublin which has had nothing done to it since the day it was built. It's an executor's sale and there is even a cream coloured bakelite telephone on the hall table!

Anyway, a lot of work will need to be done and I'd be grateful for ballpark figures on a few essentials..........

1. Rewiring: What should I allow for this? I would provide all switches/sockets/phone points/TV points and fuse board. So, I would only need the installation, wiring, replastering etc...

Is plastering a seperate job?

Also, I read somewhere that if one is rewiring a house, one should install CAT 5 cabling. What is this and what does it do?

2. Conversion to gas and installation of gas central heating. I would need everything supplied and installed.

I have been told that the radiators need to be the right size (in terms of output) for each room. Otherwise the room will be too cold or the system will use too much gas. How does one calculate the right size per room?

Is there any Dublin based supplier of those beautiful old cast iron radiators that I remember from my shcool days? ;-)

3. Replumbing: I'm not sure if this will be required, but just in case it is, what should I budget?

4. Flooring: I know of plenty of suppliers/fitters of wooden flooring. We've used them in our present home. But, I've since discovered that buying flooring directly is cheaper, if you can find someone to fit it afterwards. Is it easy to find a fitter? Where might I look?

5. Windows and doors. I love the look of Rationel, but they're not cheap, to put it mildly. Yet, everyone seems to be using them. Are they really that good? Are they the only option?

Has anyone used http://www.swedex.ie/index.html or Harmon Vinduer http://www.h-v.ie/ or http://www.marvin-architectural.com/ ???

6. Attic conversion: What should I budget? What are the planning issues, if any? Do I need planning to install a velux in the roof?

I would be grateful for any answers.

Many thanks.

D.

MorningStar

1) Unless you have some major special deal an electrician can probably get sockets,switches etc... cheaper. Most electricans can get all the additional people like plasters, carpet layers etc... Taking the house as a standrad 3 bed i woulld say €8k-€15k it really depends on number of sockets. Cat 5 is for a computer network that can also be used for a phone too. If you don't know what it is you probably don't need one I put it in and don't use it much.

2)A new central heating system is about €4-5K

3)Plumbing probably doesn't need to be done. You can either by reproduction rads or by reclaimed one look up salvage yards

4)Cheaper? Again any trades man can buy the stuff cheaper than you. They sometimes don't pass it on but you choose the supplier and any pro will put it in

5) Don't know nothing.

6)Being vague it can cost anything up €30k it really depends on finish. Roof windows have to be at the back or you need planning. It can't be classed as a habitable room unless the ceiling height and floor space is right. Access to the attic is also pretty important too and I think you need a fire exit option when putting in a third floor. You need to check your dimmensions against the regs which are on-line but can't remember the link.

A lot of Irish property built in the 50's used Irish pine which wasn't treated great and tends to have wood worm. A surveyor should be able to tell you if the property is right and if you can do what you want.

Overall it sounds like a huge job that y ou would want to get a contractor in to do the whole lot. If you source the materials you can make sure you get a good deal and it is passed to you. Without seeing the place I'd guess €60k-€80k.

I hope that helps

lomb

i doubt u will save anything by bidding on a crap house except stamp duty. people actually pay more for these than they are worth due to wishing to put a stamp on it. also there are tradesmen around who bid them up.

rooferPete

Hi Dinarius,

With respect to the reply from Morning Star the question you have asked is about equal to "How long is a piece of string".

While I have said before "I don't do cheap" I was not joking, it's from the customer who who bought the cheap job is where I make a good living.

I would recommend that you find a professional you feel comfortable with and can trust, it is important that the person knows what you are hoping to do with a property.

The average cost for such services can range from €500 > €1,000.00 sometimes more depending on the property and the format the report is to take, for example an on site verbal survey can take about four hours, if the survey is to be a detailed written and accuratly costed product you are in the upper scale.

Really it comes down to "You get what you pay for".

For example a 1970's house rewired, re-plumbed, central heating, porch, windows and doors came in the order of €45,000.00, the windows and doors pvc, there was no attic conversion and still items like a garage and garden shed to built.

On this particular project the contractor was not making any profit and some of the sub-contractors were as near to cost as possible.

In an auction situation many of the basics are not highlighted by the autioneers, it is there job to make sure all the buyers have enough funds to get their client the highest price, they are not your advisors.

You appear to have a good idea of what you want my advice is do your best to eliminate the surprise costs that can rise very sharply in the renovation of an old property.

A 1950's property can have a lot of surprises waiting when the work starts, even for the professionals.

MorningStar

rooferPete wrote:

With respect to the reply from Morning Star the question you have asked is about equal to "How long is a piece of string".

Really good point I should have said that first. You can save money on a house that needs work but generally only if you can do the work yourself. It's also an absolute pain living in a house while work is going on.

Rubens

Dinarius

If you are buying as a property devloper to resell you must go the pessimistic route and assume that this property will cost about 100k to renovate. If its in a desirable area you could make a generous profit.

Do the maths using the 100k renovation figure is my advice and make the decision...

RJ

Dinarius

Phew!

Firstly, many thanks for the comprehensive and (very) speedy replies. I am very grateful.

I may have mislead you in my description of the house. It's not as bad as all that. It's habitable - indeed it's currently being lived in - but, we would really want to give it a good makeover and, even if the surveyor says that a rewiring isnt' necessary, we'll do it anyway. We need lots of sockets (home office, heavily computerised etc..etc..) and what is currently there is totally inadequate. Of course, if the surveyor says, "Don't touch it!", then we're out.

I can get all the electrical at cost and I'm a fussy so and so, so I will only want installed what I have chosen myself. e.g. I would want the continental type of wall switch where there entire facia is the rocker switch and not just a fiddly button in the middle of the plate, which for reasons I can never understand we still use here.

We will not be buying to resell, but to live in. But, we're in the lucky position of not having to sell our current home, so we don't have to live on a building site.

After wiring, flooring and central heating, the work is largely decorative. We could live with the existing windows - they're fairly recent white pvc double glazing - but, we would change them eventually. Ditto the attic conversion.

Our medium term plan would be to extend at the back of the house...but, that's for later.

My main concern is the heating and rewiring and if 20-25k will cover those, then that's fine.

Any other advice gratefully accepted! ;-)

D.

FX Meister

In regards to the wiring of the house, if it's not been touched since it was built you will need it rewired. Most electrical points have a standard boc onto which many different types of switches can be put on. Cat 5 has four twisted pairs of copper wires. It's used for telephone and can be used for a network aswell. If you are rewiring then you might aswell get cat 5 put it, it will be used more in the future and would be a pain in the ass install after. Get your TV points put in by the electrician too.

As for the heating, the plumber will be able to tell you what size rads to use. Remember that gas may not be in your area and might not be an option. You can get those old rads, saw them in Green MEP Patricia McKennas house last week when I went to view it.

Dinarius

FX Meister wrote:

Remember that gas may not be in your area and might not be an option.

It is. I already checked that.

You can get those old rads, saw them in Green MEP Patricia McKennas house last week when I went to view it.

Love to know where she bought them!

Many thanks.

D.

FX Meister

I wouldn't have a clue where she bought them. But there is a plumbers suppliers near doyles corner in Cabra. You can view pictures of the house here http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=232175&p=14&rt=search&searchlist=
Guide of €550,000 but I haven't heard how much it went for yet. There was another house on the same road that sold last week. It was in need of total refurb, guide of €280,000 and went for €402,000

smileygal

Re antique radiators:

Can't vouch for them as haven't been a customer, but it might help:

http://www.salvoweb.com/Ireland-Rep./CoDublin/victorian-salvage-and-joinery-co-ltd-x2754/

http://www.salvoweb.com/Ireland-Rep./CoDublin/directory.html

or try around Francis St - if there aren't any there, there should be someone who knows.

FX Meister

I would say they are expensive smileygal. You can get new ones that just look old though.

MorningStar

It's a nice house but looks like it is a lot older than the 1950's did you mean 1850's?

At that kind of age you can get some nasty surprises. Just make sure you got a full surveyor as opposed to a quick one. THey are really prone to roof and foundation problems. You do get all the nice features so it can be worth it but maintainence is generally more expensive.

You probably will need a good plaster as it might be lime plaster.

To keep your features the electrics and heating will be a bit more expensive to get put in. The money (20-25) you are talking about sounds OK and it looks like you could even get the odd original radiators for that.

I love the house and it is similar to something I lived in before. If you haven't lived in something similar you might not be aware of some things. They are both difficult and expensive to heat. Lots of draughts everywhere and you will never seal them all. The high ceilings are also a problem. If you have to go to the toilet late at night that is a distance to go especially if you have been out .

smileygal

FX Meister wrote:

I would say they are expensive smileygal. You can get new ones that just look old though.

tbh i would prefer new ones that look old(should be more efficientand trustworthy) and save the desire for authenticity for some other fab object

Dinarius

MorningStar wrote:

It's a nice house but looks like it is a lot older than the 1950's did you mean 1850's?

Think you may have your wires crossed a bit here. ;-)

I am considering a 1950's 3-bed-semi.

The link to the Victorian house was posted by someone simply to illustrate some old radaitors in situ.

D.

MorningStar

Dinarius wrote:

Think you may have your wires crossed a bit here. ;-)

I am considering a 1950's 3-bed-semi.

The link to the Victorian house was posted by someone simply to illustrate some old radaitors in situ.

D.

Indeed I did d'oh!

Any link for the house you are looking at?

Dinarius

Not until, or unless, I buy it!

For obvious reasons! This market is competitive enough.

D.

mad m

Dinarius wrote:

Not until, or unless, I buy it!

For obvious reasons! This market is competitive enough.

D.

Haha was thinking same thing.How much is the house in question?

Dinarius

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

mad m

Dinarius wrote:

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

Jesus! Abolish the Stamp Duty!!!!

Goodluck in getting it...




Dont forget the painting costs also....

lomb

Dinarius wrote:

I think it will go over 800k.

D.

thats fookin crazy money for a 3 bed semi in crap order. budget 100 to fix it is my advice. for that kind of money u can buy a dream home on 4 acres in saggart with total views of dublin out to the bay. also stamp duty is 9% so budget another 80 grand in taxes......

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

In a previous life I was associated with the property business, then as today the three L's were what mattered when buying or selling

Location, Location, Location.

lomb

i would have thought saggart wasnt a bad place seeing as it is on city wests back. in time the saggart one will appreciate at a far greater rate simply because those houses are unique. 4 acres of land,2000 sq foot, dream views of dublin and 3 miles to the M50 or a run down kip semi d in urban dublin. i think i know which i would chose if in the enviable position (hopefully someday soon-thats the plan) but i dont have kids

rooferPete

Hi Lomb,

Saggart is a beautiful spot, I would recommend you go up there and walk around on an evening with a light breeze though, I have worked there and it can be very cold outside the big windows

That said I would have no problem with Saggart as my address, I think you have just described €1.5 mill on a lucky day ?

lomb

rooferPete wrote:

That said I would have no problem with Saggart as my address, I think you have just described €1.5 mill on a lucky day ?

nope, 975000

the land is mostly in pasture on an elevation, but is a lovely home, about 1 million and 50 grand inc all taxes about 50000 euro a year mortgaged.

lomb

rooferPete wrote:

Hi Lomb,

Saggart is a beautiful spot, I would recommend you go up there and walk around on an evening with a light breeze though, I have worked there and it can be very cold outside the big windows

i have walked up there and seen the house and i LIKE it, although u are right the wind when it blows will really be chilly. still adds character
overall thats a far better buy for someone without kids although there is a bus stop 50 yards away and its a short hop to the LUAS also.

FX Meister

FX Meister wrote:

I wouldn't have a clue where she bought them. But there is a plumbers suppliers near doyles corner in Cabra. You can view pictures of the house here http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=232175&p=14&rt=search&searchlist=
Guide of €550,000 but I haven't heard how much it went for yet. There was another house on the same road that sold last week. It was in need of total refurb, guide of €280,000 and went for €402,000

This was withdrawn and put on the market again with a new guide of €650,000. Crazy money for a two bed house with the only bathroom right at the back of the house, through the kitchen and utility room.

lomb

FX Meister wrote:

This was withdrawn and put on the market again with a new guide of €650,000. Crazy money for a two bed house with the only bathroom right at the back of the house, through the kitchen and utility room.

lunatic money for a pit isnt it! and i dont even think its a 'good location' id value that at 350-400, not 650. as i say saggart is looking good

the problem is they are going on a 'per sq foot' basis now. desirable properties are easily getting 600 euro a sqare foot. thing is no one is factoring the value of seclusion, land, views, and class.

if u bought that house u would be sucking diesel fumes all day, u could hear ur neigbours, front garden would be non existant, parking the car well thats a problem! 650 for that no thanks, its amazing that that is the going rate. truely amazing......

mad m

lomb wrote:

lunatic money for a pit isnt it! and i dont even think its a 'good location' id value that at 350-400, not 650. as i say saggart is looking good

the problem is they are going on a 'per sq foot' basis now. desirable properties are easily getting 600 euro a sqare foot. thing is no one is factoring the value of seclusion, land, views, and class.

if u bought that house u would be sucking diesel fumes all day, u could hear ur neigbours, front garden would be non existant, parking the car well thats a problem! 650 for that no thanks, its amazing that that is the going rate. truely amazing......

Yeah i agree,but we all know that someone will buy that house.I had a nice 3bed semi in Ballycullen.Worked on the site for 7years and all i did was fall out of bed and out front door and i was in work.

But we still moved,my wife and i gave up the house with toilet downstairs and ensuite plus an extra room to now where we live which is terraced.And i havent looked back since.Moved back to area i grew up in.Schools are nearer and the area is much more settled.

Mad money....Abolish stamp duty!!!!

rooferPete

Hi lomb,

That sounds like a nice home and investment, all areas are going to become more valuable depending on the access to public transport, so a bus almost outside the door and the Luas nearby will have an impact on the re-sale in the next ten years or so.

The Drumcondra house is crazy at that price, but it's also deceiving the new open plan and walk into town is making those properties very valuable especially amoung the double income no kids group.

Personally I wouldn't dream of paying anymore than €350,000.00 and the only reason I would go that high (in theory) is because the area is quiet.

.

FX Meister

It is a quiet area Lomb, parking isn't a problem and it's close to bus routes and to town. As for Saggart, I wouldn't live there for any money you could offer. Terrible traffic problems that are only going to get worse with all the developments serviced by that stretch of road.

lomb

FX Meister wrote:

It is a quiet area Lomb, parking isn't a problem and it's close to bus routes and to town. As for Saggart, I wouldn't live there for any money you could offer. Terrible traffic problems that are only going to get worse with all the developments serviced by that stretch of road.

well all i am sayiing is u wont get any change out of 1 million by the time u have paid stamp duty,and repaired it. when u think about it 1 million is alot for a semi detached house around 1300 square foot. i dont think there is any value in it personally and u always in life need to look for value. and it is out there if u look hard enough.

FX Meister

Ahh yeah I dig what you are saying. But to some people being close to the city is worth what they want to pay. I'm sure if you travel further than Saggart you can find nicer houses that cost less than Saggart but are better. I do understand what you are saying and agree with you to a certain extent.
As for the house on Dargle Road, I spoke to an agent from Sherry Fitz today while viewing another house and she said that it's been sold for €620,000.

lomb

well most jobs arent even in the city they are in the suburbs like blanch and city west etc. and as far as schools and that go it is true most people prefer to live close to good schools like in blackrock etc. also people prefer to livwe in areas familiar to them and obviously saggart isnt a familiar area to many....

lomb

mad m wrote:

Mad money....Abolish stamp duty!!!!

why, it bring in cash for the exchequer. if it was removed the prices would rise again by 9%

Degsy

lomb wrote:

lunatic money for a pit isnt it! and i dont even think its a 'good location' id value that at 350-400, not 650. as i say saggart is looking good

the problem is they are going on a 'per sq foot' basis now. desirable properties are easily getting 600 euro a sqare foot. thing is no one is factoring the value of seclusion, land, views, and class.

if u bought that house u would be sucking diesel fumes all day, u could hear ur neigbours, front garden would be non existant, parking the car well thats a problem! 650 for that no thanks, its amazing that that is the going rate. truely amazing......

I know that area quite well,directly across the road from that house is a 40 ft stone wall that makes for as less than intersting view!in addition,matches in croke park make the whole area seize up with vehicle traffic and gangs of noisy,drunken fools for the entire day.A walk to town will take the best part of half an hour as well and if you want to drive,be prepared to bve stuck in the worst traffic on the northside as its still fouled up due to port tunnel works.Its not worth half that money.

FX Meister

Just wait till the let the soccer and rugby crowds in!
The traffic isn't that bad on match days and it's only on the bigger ones anyway. There is a wall opposite the houses but it does block the view and noise for the apartments opposite. They are low houses anyway.

MorningStar

Degsy wrote:

... and if you want to drive,be prepared to bve stuck in the worst traffic on the northside as its still fouled up due to port tunnel works.Its not worth half that money.

This house was bought about 6 Mmonths ago at what seemed like the bad price of €317k when it was a 3 bed. Now it is a 2 bed and new kitchen,bathroom and general tidy up. Parnell Park is accross the road along with a large church(ringing bells),community centre and taxi rank. I heard the community centre now gives out methadone but I am not convinced. And it is a main road where a bus goes right by your door.

http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=231629&p=6&rt=search&searchlist=


Mean while down the road closer to the DART station and Kilester Village and below the stamp duty threshold for many people. For €295k ($50k less than other one) you get off the main road and have a nice green just outside the door.

http://www1.myhome.ie/search/property.asp?id=233787&p=3&rt=search&searchlist=

I just don't get how there is value for the extra money

Degsy

FX Meister wrote:

Just wait till the let the soccer and rugby crowds in!
The traffic isn't that bad on match days and it's only on the bigger ones anyway. There is a wall opposite the houses but it does block the view and noise for the apartments opposite. They are low houses anyway.

The area behind that house is bedsit city with more and more owners selling out to developers who are turning the properties into flats.There is a growing asylum seeker population in the immediate area which while it doesnt bother me is unlikely to do much for the future saleability of the property.The laneway to the left of the wall in front of the house leads to quinn's pub with its noisy throngs of students during the week and drunken gaa fans at the weekend.be prepared for the garden to be used as a toilet,a bin or the element of some drink-related 'game'.

FX Meister

They wouldn't get permission to turn a house on Carlingford Road into flats, and residents wouldn't let them get away with it illegally. That's not really the most convenient way to get to Quinns either so I wouldn't be too worried about their customers to be honest.

Degsy

FX Meister wrote:

They wouldn't get permission to turn a house on Carlingford Road into flats, and residents wouldn't let them get away with it illegally. That's not really the most convenient way to get to Quinns either so I wouldn't be too worried about their customers to be honest.

And what pricisely is so special about carlingford road?There is a house on the junction of hollybank road which was purcxhased by the government and turned into an asylum centre and the residents could do exactly nothing about it.Around the corner on drumcondra road,several properties have been sold as pre 63 investments in the last couple of years ALL of which will be turned into flats whether the residents like it or not.As these properties are sold they're being snapped up by investors and as we all know in this country 'money talks'.That area is gradually turning into a flea pit.

rooferPete

Hi Degsy,

It's been a while since I was down that way but I used to be around there almost every day at one time and we did work on a lot of the houses too.

The Pre 63 is exactly that, it is a property that was altered or converted prior to Planning Permission becoming law in 1963, therefore any of the houses being worked on are possibly being converted from bedsits to apartments or in some cases back to single family dwellings.

Pre 63 it was ok to turn every room in a house into a seperate living area sharing the same bathroom and toilet, extensions could be built without the neighbours having a say in the matter.

Carlingford Rd was a lovely area with very few if any Pre 63 properties on it, a real family road, Hollybank had a few Pre 63's but well managed, the bottom of Hollybank had an accountants office and then the Building society, the other side was a printers shop and a garage where second hand cars were sold so the Drumcondra Rd end was a bit commercial and I'm not just talking about yesterday

A nice are all things considered, since the boom a lot of the property on Drumcondra Rd has been upgraded and turned back into nice homes, some funded by developing the large back gardens, but that's progress.

.

gregos

I don't understand how people in Dublin can afford to pay these incredible prices.

FX Meister

I know, I wonder what kind of jobs they have. But for that price I'd want off street parking. There's a dude on Hollybank Road, Mid Terrace house and a 2 metre front garden and he parks his 04 BMW M3 on the road. Twice he's had the M badge ripped off the car.

Dinarius

lomb wrote:

why, it bring in cash for the exchequer. if it was removed the prices would rise again by 9%

Precisely!

Prices have risen strongly since March. Why? Because Cowan abolished stamp duty for first-time buyers in the December budget.

The result is buyers have more to spend on the house (remember that, strictly speaking, you cannot borrow the stamp duty). So, those selling receive more for their property and, as a result, spend more trading up.

This gradual 'trickel up' effect has taken a few months to kick in and what we are seeing now is the result of Cowan's stupidity.

Remember that the market will ALWAYS pay a multiple of what Joe and Jane Average earn, coupled with what it costs them to borrow the money. No more, no less.

So, whether Cowan takes 1%, 5% or 20% of that total is completely irrelevant. If it means more money for schools and hospitals then so be it. But, any talk of a reduction in stamp duty bringing about an easing of the property market is rubbish. (Of course, as we saw last week, the government squanders the money wholesale by lining the pockets of those it contracts. Fianna Fail is not known as the builders friend for nothing! But, that's another story.)

Another thing........it really is all about location.

I went to the auction of this house last week..........

http://www.mcnallyhandy.ie/scripts/details_pub.asp?propID=74&PType=&Page=1

We had it surveyed. Suffice to say the survery was a train wreck! The 'extension' (done by the previous owner in the sixties, who fancied himself as an architect, and his brother who was apparently a builder, if you can believe that!) needed to be demolished. But, it had great potential, outstanding location and a fabulous garden. So, we had it costed and figured about 150-175k to demolish and rebuild the extension. Therefore, we were willing to go to about 850k.

The bidding began at 650k. We sat back and watched as it rose and rose................

Eventually, only two bidders remained. The bids got smaller and it was sold for €1.112m!

Crazy!

The following day I called the auctioneer. He described what had happened and 'temporary insanity'. I agreed. Turns out that the guy who bought it wasn't even at the auction. He sent his solicitor. What's more, he hadn't had it surveyed! Incredible, but true.

But, what's even crazier is that the underbidders had had the house surveyed. So, what were THEY thinking??!!

Another house has just come up on the same road. Yet again, it's an executor's sale, but this time it's private treaty. It's on the other side of the road, which means that the garden faces north, so we have no interest. Price is €780k. I rang the auctioneer. He immediately brought up the sale of number 4. I left him in no doubt as to what had happened.......!

Still chasing the other house..............fingers crossed!

D.

FX Meister

That link didn't work for me, can you post it again?

lomb

http://www.mcnallyhandy.ie/scripts/details_pub.asp?propID=74&PType=&Page=1

if it doesnt work its 4 thornhill road mount merrion, do a search on mcnallyhandys website

lomb

can i ask how much the survey cost?

FX Meister

Just saw it. The extension looks really ugly.

lomb

in fairness even if u had got it for 850, it would have cost 150 to bring it up to spec. also another 75 in stamp duty.
location does matter but blackrock is overrated tbh.
for 750 u can get a fine house in rathcoole about 2000 sq foot on an acre and modern. the luas probably will extend to there in time and even if it doesnt the bus connections are many.
i dont see alot of value in that and to be honest any subsequent property u chase like it, u wont get it for anything less than probably that went for. with property in order to get it, u need to keep bidding even to maddening levels, particularly if several people are interested in it. if u look at a myhome.ie map, literally there are very few properties for sale there in that area that arent flats.
so my advice is look elsewhere. bray has excellent connections via the dart and is much more reasonable tbh, and is in that 'same' direction. best of luck house hunting

lomb

gregos wrote:

I don't understand how people in Dublin can afford to pay these incredible prices.

the lotto nah, just hard work
the secret is most people cannot afford them obviously, however at any one time there are very few properties up for sale. just look at a map at myhome.ie. there are very few houses for sale in blackrock and surrounds, hence if even 2 people can afford it and want it it drives up the cost.but the truth is the majority of irish people in dublin cant afford the house they live in......