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LUAS Network + Future Expansion

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Busáras is a fantastic building (if you are interested in architecture).

    Donnybrook bus garage is also an interesting building from an architectural pov. Not sure if it is listed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 294 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Ah sorry I forgot about that. However I still stand by that even with the longer trams, without COVID and more WFH stunting growth for a few years, the green line would likely be over capacity by now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,107 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I am fascinated with architecture.

    Have been lucky enough to see some of the most incredible places on the planet from Samarkand to Giza to Petra.

    Busáras is just brutal without the brutalism.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    This is off topic, but just look at the details of the building.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭gjim


    Off-topic warning.

    The building is in the International Modern style - nothing to do with brutalist architecture at all. Like lots of old buildings in Dublin from every historical era going back hundreds of years, neglect and poor maintenance disguise what is a handsome piece of architecture. The general public's dismissive attitude to older buildings in Dublin is not at all typical in other cities where great pride is taken in maintaining and preserving architectural heritage (of all eras) as a visit to nearly any mainland European city will show. Plenty of examples of buildings in this architectural style and of this era which have been properly maintained and they look great. In Dublin, it's best to look at early photos, if available, to judge a building's qualities. Busaras was a great looking building before decades of neglect have left it in its current shabby state.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 294 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Are any of the other platforms nearly as bad as Busaras? Heuston maybe? it would also be very difficult to extend while still keeping all three platforms. I know many of the platforms don't have a lot of space to expend into, and there would need to be changes such as Smithfield possibly needing a similair layout to Beechwood, or the extensions being offset . But surely none of the other platforms would be as difficult to extend as Busaras or Heuston?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭OisinCooke


    Is there an actual plan in place to extend the Red Line trams?? God knows they could do with it, especially at certain times of day…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 294 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Currently, nothing I can find. TII's Public Transport Active Porjects Active List that is published on their website is over a year old, so it might not be up to date. However, the tender(TII363) they published for procuring new trams specifically states that red line trams should not exceed 43.5m, but be extendable to not exceed 55m. If they are planning on these trams having a <30 year life span as with the current red line fleet, I think it means there is talk of extending the platforms within the next 10-15 years, or at the very least they want the option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 147 ✭✭DoctorPan


    And they are very proud of the project, being the company's first international project and considered the start of firm being international. Very weird being at an European grad event and Busaras being presented alongside Sydney Opera House as company landmark projects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    This might seem like a mad idea, but I always thought it would be good to extend Connolly Station southwards. You could have an upper level above the red line Luas tracks and then bridge across directly to Busaras.

    It could act as a central transport hub and avoid any pedestrian interaction with road traffic and also protection from the elements.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The one on Georges Dock is perfectly nestled between two streets. Similar at the Four Courts.

    Having said that I don't think any of them would be impossible, they are pretty minor and could probably be done.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭gjim


    If we're talking about mad ideas, how about going the whole hog and getting rid of the Luas spur altogether? Frees up a chunk of land for a couple of tall buildings. Build an underground pedestrian link - in the basements of these new buildings - with travelators but also shops/retail/etc. that would continue under Amiens St to allow exit at the Busaras Luas stop.

    The geology of Dublin isn't great for underground stuff, but it surprising that there's almost nothing underground in the city at all and it's also a bit unusual to NOT have a transport hub which has a concentration of retail around it.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I've always thought that perhaps even a simple walkway over the road from the upper section of Connolly to Busaras.

    However the question is if Busaras is even an adequate coach station any more and if not, then probably better not doing that and spending the money on moving to a larger/better location instead.

    BTW gjim, interestingly Busaras does have an underground level, with toilets and even a theatre underground! On removing the Luas spur from Connolly, you would lose turnback capacity if you did that, though if they extend the line to Poolbeg, perhaps a turnback facility could be built down around the port instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,451 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    That's an even better idea, to get rid of the spur. Although I would think an underground route wouldn't work too well as you would have to travel down two storeys from the train platform level to get to a basement level, and then back up again to ground level to get to the Luas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 164 ✭✭OisinCooke


    While I can absolutely see where you’re coming from, I think removing the Luas tracks into Connolly is not the right idea, especially if a Malahide Road Luas line will be likely using it in future to head up Amiens Street and beyond. And while I’d love an underground walkway linking Connolly, the bus station and Busáras Luas, I’m afraid that it would become a very undesirable place to be… Unless it went from within Connolly to within Busáras, with minimal “public” access, but Busáras closes unbelievably early (which makes it very uncomfortable to be waiting for a midnight or 1am bus…) so I’m not sure how viable this would be unfortunately…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    When future lines are looked at would it be possabile to have battery powered luas like the darts coming in the futre or does such a thing exist?

    It would be a major saving for luas lines not to have overhead infastructure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The city of Florence has ordered battery-powered trams from Hitachi Rail (formerly AnsaldoBreda) for use on a planned extension through the old centre. Currently the T2 tram service ends at a stop just beyond Santa Maria Novella station on the edge of the city's historic centre, but it is planned to bring this line right into the centre (a stop at the Duomo was originally planned, but the route has been moved a couple of streets back from there).

    In the long term, this is a more expensive solution (batteries are more expensive, and they need replacing every 15 years or so), but in the case of a UNESCO heritage site like Florence, it's the only option.

    https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-rail-delivers-innovative-battery-tram-solution-to-boost-florences-mobility-while-protecting-historic-city-centre-landscape-3335708



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, I was thinking the same, another option are supercapacitor based trams. They only have enough charge to cover 3km, but can charge up in seconds at each stop (and regenerative breaking).

    Already been in use for a decade in Spain are are being rolled out in Australia and Luxembourg:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acumulador_de_Carga_R%C3%A1pida

    Of course battery technology is improving (and dropping in price) very quickly, we already have full EV double decker buses, soon EV trains, it wouldn't be surprising if in 20 years the battery tech gets even cheaper and better and becomes the default for new trams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Thanks for that link.. I couldn't remember which city was using supercapacitors, or if I'd just imagined it...

    Supercapacitors have the advantage that they have a service life that's at least as long as the vehicle they're installed in, and they can provide a lot of power over a very short period : ideal for getting a tram moving (once it gets rolling, the tram's own inertia means that relatively little power is needed to keep it going).

    The big, big disadvantage of SCs is the cost. They've got equivalent energy density (kWh per kg) to lithium ion batteries, and much better power output, but they cost about 50x the price of Li-ion batteries. That sounds bad, but it could actually be acceptable in a tram system if you account for the cost with Li-ion of taking the vehicles out of revenue service for a full battery refurbishment halfway through their operating lifetime.

    This doesn't fix the other major cost of laying a tramway: moving under-street services, but it would reduce visual impact and construction cost in some areas.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In the south of France, Nice uses the same trams as we do and the trams cross Place Massena under battery power. Now it is a while since I was there but it meant there were no O/H wires to be seen. It covered a Km or two on battery.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Probably we should have done the same for College Green. Perhaps this could be retrofitted.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I would have thought that O'CS would be the most appropriate place for no-O/H lines, for both GL and RL.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That whole core city center area shouldn't have them, OCS, across the bridge, across College Green, down by Stephens Green too.

    And yes, I forget which tram company, but I do remember them specifically advertising adding batteries as a retrofit option to remove the cables.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, Place Massina in Nice has had them a long time, and identical trams to ours. Not sure how far they can go, but certainly enough to cope with O'CS and College Green.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly Alstom won a contract to supply fully battery powered trams to Saudi Arabia. They will cover 22km with no overhead cables. Good example of what they are capable of with new battery tech and a possible option for new lines here:

    https://www.enr.com/articles/58095-alstom-wins-540m-contract-for-saudi-battery-powered-tramway



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,335 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Spending a lot of money to remove overhead lines for no operational benefit seems crazy to me.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The choice of battery-only trams for that Saudi system was due to princely meddling, I suspect. There's really no reason to not use overhead lines in a short, new-build system like this. Another sign of too much money is in the render of the tram itself:

    image.png


    That image is from Alstom, by the way. Believe it or not, this is the same Citadis tram product as used for Luas. Everywhere in the world that uses these trams, you usually have a custom front and end cab, but the same body profile, but this one looks to be fully bespoke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 242 ✭✭scrabtom


    It does look pretty cool in fairness to those bastards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's pie in the sky. There's a lot of issues with the public realm in Dublin that could be fixed quicker and cheaper than removing the tram wires.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Agreed. The cost of overhead wires is tiny compared to the cost of removing all the under-road services before the track goes down.

    Adding a small battery (giving around 500 m autonomy) is handy to avoid having to wire complex crossings, junctions or public squares, but it hasn't been needed in Dublin to date, and is unlikely to be in future.



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