Need a budget EV fast!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143395#Comment_122143395

I thought the budget was €3k including tax for the year?

If you can stretch to €6k, that car is great value. It's also a 30kWh, that will do the commute at motorway speeds on the worst day in winter no problem. Personally I would add another few grand on top of that and get an Ioniq. Will likely have lower total cost of ownership, even if you need to finance a few grand of it.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143553#Comment_122143553

In the OP they said ideally 3-4k but could stretch to 7k.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143547#Comment_122143547

I don't see that in the ad, were you talking to them?

The general consensus on that particular battery is about 95km in the winter with 80% SoH. Can get as high as 150 in the summer. Really depends on driving style and terrain.

cormie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143553#Comment_122143553

Thanks Unkel, the not having to borrow more budget is 3k so that was the ideal, but if this one can be gotten a little less than 6K it might be worth borrowing for to get something that won't be cutting it so tight and having to be sold on in winter. An Ioniq wouldn't really be feasible.

If the seller is saying 110, is that now low considering it's a 30 and meant to be at 87%? The other Tekna with the 136 range listed above, the seller decided to keep it.

Is a 30kw 110 range leaf going to be a better buy for 6K than a 6K Renault Zoe I wonder?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143574#Comment_122143574

Ah ok, I was told privately €3k including tax was the budget. Maybe that was a negotiation tactic 😂

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143547#Comment_122143547

Just honest. Some of us don't bullshit about the range. And you won't get anywhere near 110km at 120km/h on a bad day in winter either.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143592#Comment_122143592

Where did you see the 110km? The 30kWh battery is supposed to have a buffer to cover degradation. Reportedly giving a usable 28kWh. I assume the 87% means that the buffer is now gone and the battery is now effectively 26kWh.

I would think 110km would be winter range. The listed range when new on those was 255km I think.

prawnsambo

The thing about the cold pack which a lot of people miss is that in the winter you can heat up the seats and steering wheel and toastie up the cabin while it's still plugged in, meaning that you're not using any battery power for heating for quite a while as you set out on your commute. Has to be worth a good few kms at least.

cormie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143594#Comment_122143594

I had to read back over our conversation as I was questioning myself after reading this, but I never said 3K was the budget, I was just stating an offer of yours and then realising about the extra expenses of no tax, cable etc with yours 😊

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143615#Comment_122143615

110 is a big drop from 255 if that's what it's listed at. The seller said 110 when messaging them:

Them:
Range around 110km 2charges available
Will let you know tomorrow haw meny bars left.

Me:
110km seems low considering it's stated to be at 87% on a 30kwh battery. Is it definitely not a 24kwh?

Them:
It is 30kw
My wife have heavy leg:))

Me:
Ok, is this your own car that you were driving? And how was the range in summer vs winter? Or you're just selling it on without having experienced it much yourself?

Oh sorry I just saw the latest message now, so you mean it's 110km range at high speed?

The ad was listed 71 days ago, so that would have been much colder weather. Maybe he based it from back then. But if it's charged to 100%, does that mean it will display only 110km on the display as the range?

The buyer would be very sensitive to cold pack would be good, but the main thing is the security of the buffer for the commute and not having to deal with finding a buyer of the cheaper option to upgrade for winter.

unkel

If you could get that 172 30kWh for a bit under the asking price, it would be a great bargain, no doubt about it. He must be keen to get rid of it that he dropped the asking price so much. I don't think it will hang about though, if you still have to start applying for a loan and stuff, you very likely will miss it.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141567#Comment_122141567

On the plus side, walking to the shops in the evening is good for you if you're in walking range

cormie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143765#Comment_122143765

Thanks a lot Unkel, appreciate the advice even though it may mean not opting for yours. Again, had the commute been half of what it is, they'd already have bought yours!

They'd be borrowing privately so no loans to apply for thankfully. Might take a punt on that one so as it seems to suit the needs well.

You reckon it's a reliable enough make to just need to check the range and there's not much else that can go wrong with them. Guessing a 2017 shouldn't have much wear or rust etc.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143794#Comment_122143794

Leafs are probably the most reliable cars of the last few decades. Apart from battery degradation, they have almost no known issues. You likely will suffer higher total cost of ownership on a €6k Leaf than on a €10k Ioniq though, the latter being a far superior car in pretty much every single way.

...Ghost...

The 30kWh Leaf would of course be better. It’s twice the price, but without even looking at the ad, I would say it sounds like pretty good value.
The 30 Leaf suffers from higher degradation due to more battery packed into the same passive cooling methodology of the 24 Leaf. I would say the stated range is realistic, so I’d be happy with that.

Edit: looked at ad. It’s not a Tekna, mileage is high, so it looks to be in order when it comes to price. I would get 500 knocked off it due to the length of time it’s been for sale.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies! Great to hear the leaf is such a reliable car! How quick do they degrade and what determines degradation? If they were to buy that 171 30kWh which currently has say 109 range, what might this drop to after say 2 years of the described commute? I see this one on Facebook Marketplace, a 2016 with 80K/km done and 6 years old, but states it's still got 12/12 bars, how is that possible if newer cars with less mileage have used up a bar or two? Would it have been hacked to show a false reading?

@…Ghost…
That €15 per 100km you responded to, was actually my response to another posted who said it cost them €15 for a full charge from 5% to 100% with a public charger. I was under the impression electric would be about 10x less than petrol, but that's even more of a petrol with good MPG.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144000#Comment_122144000

A well minded battery will always do better than one that is left at a high state of charge, or charged on a rapid charger frequently. Don’t be fooled though. The battery is not 100%. It’s likely very close to 85% and will lose its first bar then.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122143954#Comment_122143954

It's an odd one. According to this brochure, the Tekna designation was gone in 2017. Just XE, SV and SVE. The SVE had full leather, so this one seems to be the SV except it has the 360° camera which seems to be only available on the SVE. Cold pack was an option on that spec and the wheels seem to be the standard SV ones.

So it looks like the SV and maybe the 360° camera is a mistake.

Edit: This looks like a very comprehensive outline of what to look for in used Leafs:

https://mynissanleaf.com/threads/things-you-really-need-to-know-when-shopping-for-a-used-leaf.26662/

5. There appears to be be a problem with some 2016 - 2017 30kwh battery packs. Here is the issue:

There's bad news and good news in this section. But you absolutely need LeafSpy to properly check this car out.

BrianD3

so you're talking about borrowing money to buy an EV that will do the journey and/or driving at leafspeed. All while there are loads of diesel and petrol cars available for 3000 euros albeit only a tiny percentage are automatics. Can this person drive a manual or do they just prefer an auto?

Then add in the other stuff about having a foreign licence and having to regularise that for Ireland while spending as little as possible on a car while staring a new job. As for workplace charging, I'd only allow that to become part of the decision making when I had the charging cable in my own hands and about to plug in. New and presumably junior employees with budgets of 3000 euro for a car are not going to be in a position to manoeuvre themselves into charging their cars at work unless there are lots of chargers which there won't be. The small number of chargers will be hogged by/reserved for senior staff, cute hoors and awkward inviduals.

cormie

Thanks again for the comments everyone!

They can drive a manual but they really don't want to. They have an automatic back home and much prefer it. I've tried suggest manual but it was shut down pretty quick.

@prawnsambo, thanks again, they actually prefer NOT to have the leather seats so if there's one available that has the useful features of a tekna, without the leather seats, that's preferable.

That's worrying about the 2016/2017 models alright. I'm not sure how you'd be able to find out if it may qualify for a 40kw warranty upgrade before buying though.

Do you think there's cause for concern with the likes of this 2016 with a full 12/12 bars and high range? It says Leafspy can be tricked too if the BMS has been reset.

It just gets more and more complicated 😓

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144366#Comment_122144366

Yeah, I hadn't realised the BMS could be reset. But it explains in that post how to check that out. Leafspy is a must, but also a test drive. You'll be able to see what the real range is.

Also, worth noting that the battery warranty on that 172 Leaf has actually expired. It's 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000km) whichever comes first. Nissan have been replacing the 30kWh battery with the 40kWh one, which would be great, but don't think it's going to happen with that car. And if the SoH is as stated, you wouldn't get it anyway. It looked like a bargain, but would steer clear of it now.

Buying old cars is always tricky. That's why you equip yourself with all the information and tools available. At least with EVs (and especially the Leaf) you only really need to concern yourself with the battery. Mileage and age should be the only other factors apart from price.

cormie

Wait, you're saying completely steer clear of the 172 now? Or indeed any 2016/2017 models because of this software worry? What if the seller agrees to a lengthy test drive going from a 100% charge and say if the range reads 110km at the start and after 20km it's down to 90km range, is that enough of a sign that it's legit? So if it can get the 110km range and it's got the coldpack etc, would it not still be a good buy? Despite the software maladies?

What would you say about that 2016 on Facebook with the 12 bars still showing? Suspicious or it could well be legit? 😥

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144366#Comment_122144366

Re: the manual transmission and being shut down, that would cause me to take a step back from this person. Someone with a foreign licence starting a new job and with a small budget is in no position to dictate "no manuals". Their ability to drive a manual is one of the few trump cards that they have and if they choose not to recognise that, well tough.

I've been in situations before where people asked my advice on cars and wanted a, b, c and x, y, z while having no concept of how weak a bargaining position they were in. I actually felt sorry for the sellers of cars that they interacted with. The messers would turn up late for appointments and then offer half the asking price for cars that were some of the cheapest on donedeal.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144562#Comment_122144562

I'm not saying to steer clear of it, but the battery warranty's gone and he should know that, so I'd be a bit suspicious of it. He's also not showing the remaining bars nor the data that gives the 87% SoH.

The one on Facebook seems too good to be true. But the 12/12 is probably at the bottom of its first bar which is around 85%. The guessometer is showing around 118km at 98% which would bear that out. But it doesn't appear to have the cold pack which I think should be a minimum requirement for you.

cormie

Thanks again, yeah I've asked for his phone number so we can discuss further so just waiting to hear back now.

The seller of the one on Facebook sent me this image at 100% too:

Says the reason for sale is they are upgrading to a 2022 Leaf. They are the 2nd owner. Just seems a bit weird that the range on a 2016 would be so good with the full 12 bars when newer ones appear worse?

If I drove that 27km on a test drive and the range was then showing 100km, is that an accurate indication to show the range is legit, or the car needs time to adjust if it was hacked?

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144695#Comment_122144695

Yeah, driving 20 or 30kms and checking against the range loss in the guessometer would be a good indicator.

This one in Monaghan has been on sale for nearly two months. The "good" thing about it is it's down to 9 bars and still in warranty, so might be eligible for the 40kWh replacement. You'd want to research that thoroughly though.

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/2017-nissan-leaf-tekna-30kwh/36550120

unkel

I wouldn't care about the cold pack, any 30kWh should be able to do that commute even if you drive like a maniac with the heat on full blast, unless the battery is seriously compromised

A longish test drive (at least 15-20km) should give a good idea of real range if you don't want to bother with LeafSpy

prawnsambo

Just to add that before they even think about replacing the battery, they do a software update (if it's not already done) that updates the BMS software and 'fixes' misreporting of battery SoH.

I put that in inverted commas because all reports from owners of cars that got the update say it holds for a while and then degrades quite rapidly back to where it started. At which point they get the battery replaced.

The trigger for battery replacement (or software update) is 8 bars.

sh81722

The 172 LEAF you list is not a Tekna anyway. It's an Acenta or SV (UK/Irish cars are called differently) with cold pack as seen by 16 inch alloys, fabric interior, Halogen headlamps. There are no pictures of the instrument cluster to confirm the range/SOH so tread carefully.

cormie

Thanks again! :)

Yeah given the potential that if somebody went to the trouble to hack it to show better, Leafspy may not give an accurate idea, plus it means having to buy the obd, and doing new unfamiliar stuff and not being 100% sure if it's been done right.

If a good way to check the guessometer is to just drive it 20km or so, this would be preferable.

My understanding is that if the range shows say 110km and it's driven 20km, that the range should then show 90km if it's legit, but if it's not legit, the range may show 75 or something a good bit lower than what was driven? Meaning driving 40km would have it down to 40km (110km minus 70) and then driving another 60km (3 x 35 = 105) would be pretty much the extent of the range, as opposed to the 110? Is that the right way to test them? Is it ever a case where the reduction of the range could be way off and although it's reducing a lot faster than the KM driven, it's actually got more reserves than what's stated?

cormie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122144882#Comment_122144882

Thank you, they'd rather this over the Tekna to avoid the leather seats actually :)