The 2024 All Ireland Senior Football Championship (Sam Maguire Cup)

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122074748#Comment_122074748

Louth has about the same population as Mayo.

However, Kildare has a lot more and they should be doing better.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075001#Comment_122075001

I am not a Kildare supporter but I have seen a lot of them over the years. They drive me mad as I can see there are talented players there. But they are real flaky/patchy no real fight in them. And tactically clueless.

I actually said to the steward going into CP today I think Louth will fancy themselves and I hope they hammer Kildare. Because I am sick of all those years of sh!te football Kildare have produced, and having to suffer it - even as a neutral.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075017#Comment_122075017

Jayus your'e right I wouldn't have thought that - re Louth. Maybe I think of their nickname as geographically small.

YabaDabaDooley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075001#Comment_122075001

Underachievers, both play in white and Glenn's their most famous players; Ryan and Hoddle.

YabaDabaDooley

The problem for Louth GAA is both Dundalk and Drogheda are massive soccer towns. Both clubs in Ireland's top tier. Not exactly GAA strongholds as far as i know.

gormdubhgorm

As for McGuinness/Donegal it just shows how a good manager can turn a team around. Donegal looked as if the arse had fallen out of the team. Murphy gone etc. And within a year McGuinness turns it around.

In the GAA (Gaelic Football) there never seems to be enough credit given to managers who turn teams around and actually improve teams. It is normally chat about "intensity" on one extreme or all the "sports science" stuff. Very little talk of what a good manager does for a team.

McGuinness looks like a lock for manager of the year already, in my opinion. I am very impressed.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075059#Comment_122075059

I did think of that. Interestingly, there were a good few Dundalk FC hats etc in CP today.

The Louth people really love their sport. Through thick and thin they follow that Louth team (not like some other counties.) They always seem very vocal that is for sure.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075063#Comment_122075063

I think McGuinness is very special because lots of people are smart but not every smart person has a creative imagination. McGuinness is unconstrained in terms of coming up with tactics.

It became clear to me in 2011 when Dublin beat Donegal 0-08 to 0-06. Donegal almost succeeded in completely shutting down the game (iirc this was before teams started copying this over-defensive style and it became old hat).

Then against Derry last week, it looks obvious in retrospect but lobbing the keeper every time he's off his line and beating what was supposed to be the best team in Ulster. It won't work next time because they'll be ready for it but so what.

Because of this specialness, there's always a chance Donegal will pull a rabbit out of a hat even when they seem out-matched.

TA123123123123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075093#Comment_122075093

cough Cork cough

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075063#Comment_122075063

the ulster championship this year has been a joy , after i came back home form cork tonight it was the first game i watched ,

tyrone have a fine team but are a year or two from piecing the jigsaw together , young canavan has the potential to surpass his father that young daly at ten is quality , brian Kennedy , hampsey , morgan, ruari canavan ect matty will probably be gone by the next all ireland that they win but its not that far away

i have huge time for McHugh and ciaran thompson for donegal two sensational footballers pader mogan ,niall o'donnell brendan mcoole they are stacked but just lacked leadership

tactally last week against derry was a huge warning sign , today was a sign of the mcguinness work rate to grind it out

dxhound2005

The seedings for the Tailteann have been confirmed. The whole thing could have been arranged without any provincial championships. Only difference would be Down in Sam instead of Clare.

windy shepard henderson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075402#Comment_122075402

**** down if they took there chances last night then talk about it , cork lobbied for a tired section in munster , which thy got and we beat them last year and took it off them , its up to them to take it back

either that or we get rid of the provincial championships , but the ulster lads wont agree so screw them

dxhound2005

Leinster need to get more counties into Divisions 1 & 2, if this system is to become less Ulster centric. 4 out of 11 next year is not good enough, when Ulster provide 7 out of 9. Munster and Connacht have more than fair representation in Sam, with 3 from each this year and 4 from Connacht last year.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075402#Comment_122075402

Draws are tomorrow, Tuesday, at 3pm.

Dickie10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122073569#Comment_122073569

Didnt Meath beat Louth only a few weeks ago in the league and finshed highest placed LEINSTER TEAM in div 2?! surely the draw louth had in avoiding dublin is the reason they are back in leinster final

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122076253#Comment_122076253

Bald men and comb :-).

Always_Running

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Always_Running

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gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122075584#Comment_122075584

The league is where it is at for a proper and fair competition. Once the provincial's are over it really shows. How many will be div1 and div2 teams? Will there be many div3 teams left.

The truth is bar the the Micko 90's where the 'blow in's' came with him. And later in the in small bit of the early 00's. Kildare have only won one Sam 1928. Truth is Kildare have lacked pedigree and real heritage, that can be built on. It has to manufactured.

Meath are the same (but not as barren obviously) they did nothing of note from the 50's until the 60s. Another Big gap until the Boylan magic the "hurling man".

Gap of about 15 years since Meath have done anything of note. I am including qualifiers etc. If you don't count the controversial Leinster win. It is even worse.

Yet Meath are considered by some to be a "traditional" county?

Laois only ever did anything when Micko took charge. Westmeath - the Paidi factor. Offaly what have they done of note since Eugene McGee?

Leinster teams historically seem to dependant on great charismatic managers leading them from the doldrums. Even looking at Dublin before Heffernan Dublin football was on it's arse. Then he left huge gap - a one off AI win. Another huge gap. Took Gilroy doing a root and branch clear out. Both in mentality and personnel to "get back" to the top table.

I well remember the league in the years pre 2010 where Gilroy seemed to try every player he could think of in the league, plus played very conservative, to get results. And found a settled side by 2010.

The Leinster sides just need decent management there is definitely talent there but it is not being harnessed correctly. And a lot of the mindsets are wrong with no tactical innovation.

In my opinion there is a lot of teams sleeping in Leinster just waiting for the right man to knock them into shape.

Sonny678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079211#Comment_122079211

Meaths victories over Dublin in 80s and 90s really left bitter taste in ur mouth towards Meath. Ur constant re writing of history of Meath football continues. This is second time on this thread you have tried to say Meath were not successful county. I think your first gaa person I have ever heard say Meath r not traditional gaelic football county. I have never heard that before.

Why? Because Meath are 4th most successful county only Galway Dublin kerry are more succesful. Since foundation of state 100 years ago only kerry and Dublin have more All Ireland than Meath If Meath are not traditional county than neither r Dublin prior to 2011. As Meath went toe to toe with Dublin from 1930 to 2010.

In 1940s Dublin won 1 All Ireland Meath won 1 All Ireland

In 1950s Dublin won 1 All Ireland Meath won 1 All Ireland

In 1960s Dublin won 1 All Ireland Meath won 1 All Ireland

In 1970s Dublin won 3 All Ireland Meath won 0 All Ireland

In 1980s Dublin won 1 All Ireland Meath won 2 All Ireland

In 1990s Dublin won 1 All Ireland Meath won 2 All Ireland

In 00s Dublin won 0 All Ireland Meath won 0

In 80 year period From 1930 to 2010 Dublin won 8 All Ireland Meath won 7 All Ireland and rest of leinster together won 4 All Ireland ( Offaly 3 All Ireland Louth 1 All Ireland). Meath went toe to toe with Dublin for 80 years and had huge periods of success over Dubs in 40s 50s 60s 80s 90s.

You said Meath are same level as kildare since 1928. Again that's not factually correct.

Since 1928 kildare have won 0 All Irelands Meath have won 7 All Ireland

Since 1928 kildare have played in 2 All Ireland finals Meath have played in 15 All Ireland finals

Since 1928 kildare have won 3 leinster titles Meath have won 20 leinster titles

Since 1928 kildare have won 0 leaguediv 1 titles Meath have won 7 league div 1 titles

Since 1928 kildare in last 96 yeaes kildare have beaten Dubs in 1 leinster final in last 40 years Meath beaten Dubs in 7 leinster finals ( Westmeath laois have never beaten Dubs in leinster final)

Since 1928 Kildare have only beaten 2 top team in championship outside leinster ( kerry 98 Mayo 2018). Since 1928 Meath have beaten 22 top teams in championship outside leinster, kildare have only beaten 2.

You said Meath and kildare are the same. That's not factually correct.

You mention Meath did nothing of note from 50s to 60s. This is second time you have said this. I will address this in my next post. Completely ignoring one greatest teams ever to come out of leinster.

Sonny678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020521#Comment_122020521

Here it is again Re writing history You said it was 20 year gap til 60s that Meath had success. The problem with that is Meath had one of the best teams in the country in 1940s and 1950s. Yet you said Meath had no success in 1940s and 1950s.

Meath had one of the greatest teams ever to come out of leinster in this 20 period of no success you described.

So basically you said from 1944 to 1964 or from 1940 to 1960 Meath had no success. Yet Meath were most sucess team in leinster at period. In late 40s and early 1950s Meath won 5 leinster titles 2 All Ireland and 2 national league title. Meath beat two greatest teams of all time in 2 All Ireland finals, the two great teams of the era. Something Dublin couldn't do. Meath stopped Cavan winning 3 All Irelands in a row in 1949 All Ireland final. And Meath stopped kerry winning 4 in a row All Ireland in 1954 All Ireland final. There was no 20 years gap until 1960s of no success for Meath. Meath were one of the most successful counties in Ireland in 1940s and 1950s. Under one greatest gaa coach's of all time. Fr Tully.You keep referencing Sean Boylan and Meaths success. But Meath also had one of the greatest gaa coach's of all time Fr Tully. Packie Tully led Meath to 3 All Ireland titles, 7 leinster senior titles and 2 league div 1 titles and minor All Ireland title and 1 leinster minor title.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079552#Comment_122079552

First off I didn't say Meath are the same level of Kildare that is clear in my post. But there was still large gaps in Meath's history. Not as dim as the flickers that occurred in Kildare.

It is nothing to with a Meath v Dublin thing. It is a question of how Leinster views itself in comparison to other provinces. The league positions do not lie these days.

My main point of my post that in Leinster there are/were many teams with large barren gaps in history. I included Dublin in that summation. Which I note you left out, as you were so quick to jump to the defence of Meath as a "traditional" county v Kildare.

Meath's most successful periods came in the 1960's and 1980's. With a large gap of 20 years in between. A large gap of about 20 years prior to the 60's as well. Their last successful period was because of one man - who happened to be a hurling man. Meath are also again on an unsuccessful period of 20 years give or take a few years. Kildare have even less of a "tradition" of football, as you correctly point out.

My point was why is the lack of success in Leinster so surprising given that the "traditional" counties are not very "traditional" at all. There are generations that pass where teams do not have success. How can that be "traditional"? When you look at it the Leinster football teams historically have been all over the place consistency wise. They disappear from national consciousness.

The only reason people are shocked at how poor Leinster is now because they can recently remember Meath and Kildare teams that were decent/half decent. But it is not a new phenomenon that such teams disappear for a few generations or more, historically.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079571#Comment_122079571

Give or take a few years. I mean it is fellas like you that would remember Tully or know of him. But if you have to go back to the 40's to talk of "success". It becomes silly. How many are alive that remember games as a 10 year old in the 40's. It is folklore stuff at that stage. There wouldn't be any TV coverage or videos. It would be all word of mouth. If you showed people his picture on the street would they know of him? Would one in ten people know him? Even GAA people. I never heard of him to be honest.

Plus again you misread what I said in your jump to defend Meath I didn't say Meath had no success in 1940's I said there was a large gap 1950's until 60's.

Meath always have had large in gaps in their history going by generations with nothing of note happening. Kildare it is even worse. Poor auld Louth only had their first back to back Leinster final's appearances since the 50's. Laois and Westmeath have done nothing since they had Kerrymen leading them. Offaly they are rewatching 72 and 82 videos.

There are basically lots of counties in Leinster making up the numbers at any one time. That is the way it always was. They are just on poor cycles all at the one time.

Maybe they shouldn't call counties traditional but counties with "Traditional" unsuccessful gaps.

It is only made worse that the qualifiers/back door/super 8's are around and yet still the Leinster counties are doing nothing. It shows it up even more. But Leinster "Traditional" teams have always being in some sort of flux.

Sonny678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079573#Comment_122079573

There you go again saying Meath had no success for 20 years prior to 1960s

This is the third time you have said Meath had no success from 1940 to 1960. Yet Meath won 2 All Ireland 6 leinster titles and 2 national league div 1 titles in the 20 years you said Meath had no success.

Meath were one of the most successful counties in Ireland in 1940s and 1950s. In that period Meath won more leinster than any other county Dublin won 5 leinster in 1940s and 1950s Meath won 6 leinster. The 20 years you said Meath had no success in 1940s and 1950s Meath won 2 All Ireland titles with one of the greatest teams ever to come out of leinster. You have said this 3 times.

In summary u said Meaths most successful period are 1980s and 1960s. But Meath were more successful in 1940s and 1950s and the 1990s than in 1960s.

Meaths 5 most successful decades in the right order

Are

1 1980s

2 1990s

3 1950s

4 1940s

5 1960s

Sonny678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079582#Comment_122079582

You have said twice that Meath had no success for 20 years up to 1960. That's a fact. You have said this twice. On this thread. That's a fact. Everyone can read what you said.

Regards gaps lack of sucess it not just leinster. It's nationwide let's look at Munster than look at Traditional success counties and gaps. It's not just leinster issue

Limerick havent won Munster title in 128 years. Limerick havent beaten kerry in Munster championahip in 128 years

Clare have won 1 Munster title in 107 years.

Tippearay have won 1 Munster title in 89 years. Tippearay havent beaten kerry in championship in 96 years

Waterford haven't won Munster title in 126 years. Waterford haven't beaten kerry in championship in 67 years

LET'S Look at joint 4th most successful gaa county Cork.

Cork when they won All Ireland in 1945 it was their first All Ireland in 34 years. When Cork won All Ireland in 1973 it was Corks first All Ireland in 28 years. From 1911 to 1989 in those 78 years Cork won 2 All Irelands with 30 years gaps in between. Cork are traditional gaa county. Cork win 1 All Ireland every 30 years. And in last 34 years Cork have won 1 AllIreland.

Third most successful county is Galway. When Galway won Sam in 1998 it was Galway first All Ireland in 32 years. Galway haven't won All ireland in last 23 years reaching 1 All Ireland final in 23 years.

Cavan are 6th most successful county. Cavan haven't won All ireland in 72 years. Cavan have won 2 Ulster titles in last 55 years. In 1997 and 2021.

7th. Most successful county is Down. Down had sucess in two decades 60s and 90s. Down won their first Ulster title in 1959. Down have won 15 Ulster titles 11 of the 15 were won in 60s and 90s. Down won Sam in 1991 was their first All Ireland in 23 years. Down haven't won Ulster title in last 30 years. Down are great traditional gaa county.

After kildare and Wexford Tyrone are next most successful county in roll of honour. Tyrone won their first and second Ulster title in 1956 1957. From 1957 to 1984 in those 27 years Tyrone won 1 Ulster title in 1973. Up to 1984 Tyrone had won 3 Ulster titles. Tyrone are hugely successful gaa county.

Monaghan won Ulster in 2013 it was their first Ulster title in 28 years. When Monaghan won Ulster title in 1979 it was Monaghans first Ulster title in 41 years. Again strong gaa county like Monaghan have had huge gaps in sucess.

Let's take Mayo great traditional gaa county. When Mayo reached All Ireland final in 1989 it was Mayos first All Ireland final in 38 years. Mayo struggled in late 50s 60s 70s and 80s. Mayo didn't win Connactt title in 1970s. When Mayo won Connnacht in 1981 it was Mayo first Connacht title in 12 years. Between 1951 and 1981 30 years period Mayo won 2 Connacht titles in 1967 and 1969. Mayo didn't win Connactt title for 12 years up to 1981. Mayo didn't win Connacht title for 12 years up to 1967. Again another great traditional county with huge gaps.

It's not just leinster counties its nationwide.

PTH2009

Do seeds 3 and 4 really think there actually going to 'Win Sam' or is it the case of 'just wanting to compete against the best'

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079624#Comment_122079624

Derry and Tyrone are 3rd seeds

Derry are a top 3 team and as we have seen in 2021 Tyrone are well able to take advantage and win it if things fall the right way.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079614#Comment_122079614

I meant 20 or so years you don't have to take everything so literally.

At least Mayo are regularly there or there abouts since the 80's and the backdoor. The Ulster teams have gaps can be explained by the troubles. No sooner than it was quieting down they started a run.

The reason as you well know why Mayo did not win much in the 60's was because of an extremely strong Galway side. Those Munster teams you mention are extremely weak historically Limerick, Tipp etc. Tipp only won a Munster because of Covid basically, those Aussie Rules lads returning, for Cork, Cavan and their own team. It was not a real Championship at all IMO.

My main argument is that most of the Leinster teams never had sustained periods of success. This is a province that has fancied itself in the past.

Unlike many of the top counties in the country. Historically Leinster teams are very patchy. Perhaps that can be explained due to the number of counties in the province. I don't know.

But if a team goes 10 years struggling you can say ok that is a rebuild a generational thing. But if a team goes 20 years or more doing nothing of note something is seriously wrong.

The provincials cannot be even used as an excuse as for the last quarter of a century there at least has been the back door. It ironically said in the match programme on Sunday that Meath and Galway were against the backdoor system. And yet they were the two who met in the 2001 Final.

Somehow people seem surprised at how poor Leinster teams are doing now. When historically it was the norm for Leinster teams not to well in the first place, with big prolonged gaps where they did nothing.

Even Dublin the most successful team in Leinster on averaged only about two Sam's win per decade for the guts of 40 years until the 10's. Take away the 70's and it is even worse And even when the back door came in still struggled to get to a final. In fact Dublin never got to an AI final through the "back door" that was how poor Dublin were doing.

I have come to the conclusion that except the times when Leinster teams had charismatic figures to guide them Boylan. Micko, Paidi, Heffernan, Gavin etc they have never been much use for any sort of consistency. Otherwise they are all over the place.

Leinster has never really being consistently good as simple as that. It is full of weak sides or sides who flash brightly if they get a decent manager. As soon that manager goes they are back to the wilderness. You would think a successful team and manager would at least leave some form of legacy.

The more I thought of it. Maybe I was expecting too much of Leinster teams - namely Kildare and Meath - at the moment.

As history tells us that as soon as as their talismanic manager leaves it can be many generations before they are back. Regardless of the level of talent at their disposal. If there is no proper manager with nous, charisma, organisation, innovation, or whatever you want to call it. Such teams have no chance. The malaise sets in and a culture of losing and low standards becomes accepted.

A good manager can transform those type of mentalities.

If Jim McGuinness was managing Kildare/Meath/Armagh (The three biggest underachievers in Gaelic Football in the last 10-15 years IMO) how do you think he would do?

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079624#Comment_122079624

I'd say the 3rd seeds are likely to do as well if not better than the 2nd seeds:

Derry/Tyrone/Roscommon/Monaghan vs Clare/Louth/Armagh/Galway (based on the bettings odds)

For many teams, a lot will depend on the draw

BTW, anyone know why the draw is at 3pm on a Tuesday? Seems an odd time, mostly these draws are made early on a Monday

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079624#Comment_122079624

In the case of Westmeath and Monaghan 1/ No and 2/ Yes