The media unquestioningly accepting the whingeing of teachers.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976350#Comment_121976350

Different bands by county - it isn’t exactly rocket science. Or at least it isn’t when you don’t have unions blocking it.

Theres plenty of private sector businesses have operations dotted across the country and are able to adapt pay rates to match the individual local markets.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121973330#Comment_121973330

Does anyone know how underperforming teachers are dealt with in other European countries? Is there any type of on going assessment which must be passed?

boardise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969675#Comment_121969675

I don't know what the general take on this issue is but my thinking is that service abroad should not count towards salary here -or at least not fully. Many teachers who have had training provided by the Irish taxpayer decide to take the selfish route of heading abroad -even though they know there's a crying need for their services here. They eschew any sense of patriotic duty and head off ostensibly to earn high wages , enjoy more advantageous working conditions and soak up a better climate and quality of life. Then some of them think they can come swanning back to Ireland and get seamlessly absorbed into the ranks of those who worked doggedly through all the challenges and privations of the home scene. I know some will say 'but they're needed here now'. As against that I say -if it's known that one can lose ground in the increment race -that would be a disincentive for them to leave in the first place.

I could envisage some compromise like ,say. 50% of service being allowed …but I think there should be some element of penalty for those who deserted the cause to feather their own nest.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977136#Comment_121977136

Firstly because teachers wont all leave for Dubai if it happens. Just claiming that "making conditions worse" will make teachers leave or stop them training is bollocks. What other profession will give them this lifestyle? What else are they going to do?

Secondly because parents and students deserve it.

If Norma wants more teachers she can go and change the rules so more people are eligible to teach, many of the rules exist becuase of the recession. Others to keep it as protectionist as possible. Does P.E really need a masters in Education to teach? Cant just hire a qualified physical trainer to show the kids how to play football for 40minutes?

I mean c'mon. Teachers get to live in their ivory towers because govts. kowtow to them, instead of running the education system for the benefit of students and parents.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977231#Comment_121977231

Most of our nearest neighbours are in the same boat as us or much worse (see England): they cant get enough staff so firing them is a last resort. They do make teachers' lives v difficult of course thanks to OFSTED inspections, which drives plenty out of the job without all the expensive and time consuming disciplinary meetings and sanctions etc. Essentially makes the job a revolving door, yellowpack and cheap to run profession where young people enter at the bottom of the scale, stick it out for 2 or 3 years and then burnout, whereupon the next group of NQTs take up the reins.

In systems that receive adequate resourcing like Luxembourg and Finland, early interventions and mediation mean firing a teacher is generally unnecessary because steps are taken to improve performance adequately in the extremely rare circumstances where it is deemed inadequate. Google instances of teachers being seriously sanctioned anywhere in the world and youll find that the cases are cut and dry.

I feel like it is important to point out that once a probationary period has been observed, it is extremely difficult to fire any worker, public or private, unless there is proof of gross negligence or unprofessionalism. I know of a law firm where a solicitor was literally stealing from them and they had to pay her off to get rid of her. A law firm no less! You can make life uncomfortable for an employee but to outright fire one for perceived underperformance is almost impossible in any sector.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976454#Comment_121976454

Most will get significantly more than they pay into the 2013 pension - unless they die before reaching their early-to-mid 70s.

Someone earning €60k working full time pays in approx €248 per month.

Their pension is then a lump sum of €187.50 per month paid in, plus a monthly pension of €34.90 per month paid in.

So once he has drawn 2 months of pension, plus the lump sum, he covers what he paid in on a simple level.

Factor in likely investment growth on his monthly contributions and it brings you to somewhere in the 7-12 years of pension (depending on what age they join the scheme) before they are “in the money” - but that still leaves the vast, vast majority taking well more than they paid in with what is still a very generous Defined Benefit pension.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977239#Comment_121977239

''Lifestyle' wont pay the rent in Dublin or get you a deposit. As Ive already said, teachers are not idiots. If they feel they are being undervalued, they will either go and teach elsewhere or they will do something else altogether. As they are doing right now in real time.

Anyway, if you still maintain that worsening the conditions of a job will attract more people to it, then Im afraid youve lost touch with reality. Further debate on this particular issue would be wasting both of our time.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977325#Comment_121977325

Not sure where you're getting your figures but I earn less than 60k and I'm paying just under 200euro per fortnight in pension deductions.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977090#Comment_121977090

Or as it was said to me one time, and in complete seriousness "we teachers are the pillars of society",😂😂😂

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977239#Comment_121977239

Nail on the head, they live on a different planet if they think they’re hard done by, the sad thing is a lot of them actually do believe that they are hard done by and have hard jobs. I think they just spend too long in each others company and believe their own bulls**t after a while.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977394#Comment_121977394

It’s from the guide that you just linked:

3% x €5,000 = €150

3.5% x €2,797.13 = €97.90

Total contributions = €247.90

3.75% x €5000 = €187.50 Lump Sum per month of service

Pension

0.58% x €4,119.36 = €23.89

1.25% x €880.64 = €11.01

Monthly Pension. €34.90 per month of service

History Queen

I'll go back and reread it to see where you went wrong. Did you get your figures from one of the examples?

I pay 200ish per fortnight in pension deductions. I have to work until I'm 66 to get my full pension. I started working as a teacher when I was 23. Full time since 25.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970264#Comment_121970264

Don't be silly. I wouldn't have expected to have seen him banned for that

Sure the teachers are all on their holliers still

blackwhite

All based on the formulas given in the fact sheets - so unless you’ve knowingly linked to incorrect information those are the numbers.

You sure you aren’t also paying into the previous scheme - or you aren’t paying AVCs also.

Someone earning €48k, on fortnightly pay, should be paying less than €100 per fortnight

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977487#Comment_121977487

I've incurred the wrath of the mods on this site for far less. It's a bit of a lottery depending on what forum you're posting in.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977501#Comment_121977501

I was implying that he might be when they get back :-)

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977505#Comment_121977505

Ah I see. No overpaid subsitute Mod available then?

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977497#Comment_121977497

Nope. Post 2013 scheme. No avcs. Did you click in to the wrong fact sheet by any chance? I linked to the public sector fact sheets but probably have the actual circular that relates to teachers somewhere. I'll dig it out.

Sarn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977452#Comment_121977452

You need to take into account ASC as well.
Members of the Single Scheme pay 3.33% on pensionable remuneration between €34,500 and €60,000.

The overall contributions will be larger for those in the post 95 scheme as there is a higher rate of ASC.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977530#Comment_121977530

That’s an additional €70.76 per month - so they need 4 months to be covered on a simple basis - or another 4-5 years if you assume someone has paid c40 years on contributions and factor investment gains on that. Still well more than covered

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976901#Comment_121976901

Oh dont worry that poster is going to educate their offspring themselves to avoid those costs🤣

I can only imagine the kind of cult would develop over time...Im imagining off grid compounds and tin foil hats all over the place....

Thankfully it could just be a bored teenager preparing for a junior debate as opposed to an actual adult...which would be quite scary.

dickdasr1234

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969209#Comment_121969209

For 20 years, I worked a five-and-a-half day week 08:30 to 18:30. I never felt the need to lie down when I went home until I became a teacher.

Neither does a teacher's day finish when classes end.

A genuine teacher will earn their corn!

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977136#Comment_121977136

In fairness that kind of logic hasnt stopped a lot of previous education ministers from attempting to make a total balls of the education system...Id have expected legacy quinn to try solve a recruitment crisis by making conditions even less attractive!

SupaCat95

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121969315#Comment_121969315

BBut but but "Diversity is one of our strengths!"

Deluded public servant class.

amacca

Most of our nearest neighbours are in the same boat as us or much worse (see England): they cant get enough staff so firing them is a last resort. They do make teachers' lives v difficult of course thanks to OFSTED inspections, which drives plenty out of the job without all the expensive and time consuming disciplinary meetings and sanctions etc. Essentially makes the job a revolving door, yellowpack and cheap to run profession where young people enter at the bottom of the scale, stick it out for 2 or 3 years and then burnout, whereupon the next group of NQTs take up the reins.

In systems that receive adequate resourcing like Luxembourg and Finland, early interventions and mediation mean firing a teacher is generally unnecessary because steps are taken to improve performance adequately in the extremely rare circumstances where it is deemed inadequate. Google instances of teachers being seriously sanctioned anywhere in the world and youll find that the cases are cut and dry.

I feel like it is important to point out that once a probationary period has been observed, it is extremely difficult to fire any worker, public or private, unless there is proof of gross negligence or unprofessionalism. I know of a law firm where a solicitor was literally stealing from them and they had to pay her off to get rid of her. A law firm no less! You can make life uncomfortable for an employee but to outright fire one for perceived underperformance is almost impossible in any sector.

I predict this will be deeply uncomfortable information for those "debating" you

You mean if anyone was unwise enough to try do all the stupid **** we are suggesting...it would only make the education system worse and our kids less educated and less well off?🤣

Is the general point that wont land or be acknowledged, instead theyll go back to usual bullshit!

Deeper Blue

As soon as I read the thread title I knew the usual teacher bashing mob would be on here embarassing themselves, and I've not been disappointed.

The ignorance on here is as staggering as it is hilarious.

It's given me a good chuckle anyway so kudos to those involved.

lmk123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977715#Comment_121977715

i assume you also knew the usual moaning teacher mob would be on too. No other profession would even bother arguing, the truth hurts I suppose.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121977715#Comment_121977715

There may be some ignorance here but the teaching profession are also very ignorant to the real world. Other professions ( accountants, solicitors, vets, GPS etc) are not on the large salaries teachers think they are. Thats the reality nowadays -salaries are low in these professions ( outside of the of the 70 hr gruelling working week in top jobs). Often there is no good pension pot provided, sick pay is the statutary amount, job sharing is non existant, you will be lucky to get your holiday entitlement and when you are on hols you are still receiving calls and emails. That the reality for many professionals that teachers are comparing themselves to.

Honestly teachers do need to get real, that they actually have it quite good in comparison to jobs in the big bad world. But alas they never will realise that. I do support extra payment for Dublin teachers but thats it.

I have many family members and friends who are teachers and they are far from poor and living awful lives.

onrail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978023#Comment_121978023

I'd completely echo this, again having several family members in the profession, and myself indirectly benefitting from the conditions teachers have.

A Dublin or urban based pay bump should be introduced, possibly something in line with rent pressure zones, following which we should hear less about some of these acute shortages.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121978023#Comment_121978023

Im sorry but there are so many flaws here in your understanding of the situation.

Firstly, it is not teachers that are here begrudging other professions, it is the other way round. No teacher has any issue with a worker trying to better their wages and conditions; indeed to advocate for anything else is to embrace and endorse the aforementioned race to the bottom. The way to deal with those issues youve listed is not to attack teachers and their conditions.

People also need to remember that 99pc (and that may be an underestimation) of teachers have worked in the private sector before, during or after their teaching careers. Teachers know what it is like to work in other jobs, whereas most people dont have any real idea what working in a school involves. Far too many people who cast aspersions do so on the sole basis that they were a student. And that is no basis at all. We've all had bad experiences with teachers when we were in school, some valid, others less so and all recalled from the perspective of an adolescent mindset. To allow such experiences to tarnish your opinion of an entire profession is narrow minded in the extreme.

And just as you have relatives who are teachers so do teachers have relatives in the private sector. As it happens, my brother is an accountant. He makes a lot more than I do. Do I begrudge him or make cheap jokes about how a good calculater could do the job for him? No, because (a) I have never worked as an accountant and have zero clue what the job involves outside of the very basics and (b) he works bloody hard. As do most people. Including teachers.