Breaking - Shooting and Explosion at Concert Hall in Moscow

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979408#Comment_121979408

The fact you won't even comment on if Russia has been pursuing a campaign of genocide is a pretty good indication of the state of your moral compass... Everything you're discussing in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the attack in Moscow and is just attempting the same loose linkage as Putin has. The vast majority of posters have condemned the terrorist attack we're actually discussing which has nothing to do with Ukraine.

Why aren't you discussing this in the invasion thread?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979801#Comment_121979801

Ukraine's (now-admitted) past campaign of terrorist actions is relevant to speculation as to who might be responsible for the most recent terrorist attack in Moscow. That's what I'm discussing in light of Russia's recent demand - which referenced the Crocus City Hall attack in the text without directly accusing Ukraine - to Ukraine that they cease terrorist activities and extradite a list of Ukrainians for trial, including the head of the SBU.

Meanwhile you want to go off on a whataboutery tangent which belongs on a different thread….

The reality is, there is an investigation that is ongoing. And lets not jump to conclusions until all the evidence is reviewed.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979361#Comment_121979361

(1) Well, you have your opinion / interpretation of events, and I have mine, difference is all you can see is what can be blamed either directly or indirectly on Ukraine, while completely ignoring the massive murder and destruction carried out by Putin. As for the Kerch bridge, you ignore what I said about it, and its military importance, didn't suit your version? So here it is again:-

1. Ukrainian forces carried out two strikes on the Kerch Bridge.
2. The first explosion occurred near the vehicular section, while the second explosion targeted the bridge’s railway structure.
3. Satellite photos reveal damage to the railroad parts of the bridge, contrary to Russian claims that only the roadway was affected.
4. The bridge is a critical supply route for Russia’s forces and serves as their sole land link with annexed Crimea1.
5. Importance of the Kerch Bridge:
   • The 19-kilometer (12-mile) road and rail bridge is crucial for sustaining Moscow’s military offensives in southern Ukraine.
   • It consists of two main parts: a four-lane roadway for vehicles and a railway bridge with two tracks.
   • The bridge facilitates the movement of troops, supplies, and equipment to and from Crimea, which was illegally annexed by Russian President Vladimir Putin in 20141.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979858#Comment_121979858

They weren't terrorist actions. Ukraine has not admitted to a campaign of terrorist attacks. This is entirely your own 'standard' which you only apply to Ukraine and not Russian actions in killing its own civilians. So this is just argument by repetition which multiple posters have already discredited.

You show zero interest in discussion of the other culprits who could be behind the attack such as the self declared ones ISIS-K. You are only interested in the discussion in so far as you can use it to criticise Ukraine.

Where is this other speculation by you on the thread of alternative culprits? Well? ISIS-K? Some internal Russian faction? Nowhere to be seen.

Proving the whataboutery is yours. You aren't here discussing the actual attack or actual evidence pointing to the culprits or any potential culprit other than Ukraine. It is just a constant Ukraine this and Ukraine that, with zero direct reference to the theatre attack.

Similarly your claims that we can expect a proper investigation and for all the actual evidence to be reviewed and made public is speculation without foundation. After waging a propaganda campaign against Ukraine, Russia is highly unlikely to turn around and say well actually Ukraine had nothing to do with it, and it was ISIS-K or some domestic faction now are they? No matter what internal evidence they have found.

This question was put to you before and you ignored it. When you cannot answer such a point, it is self-discrediting of your claims.

jmreire

If targeting / murdering civilians is your main point, and you don't include Putins murderous record, then you have a very serious imbalance in your outlook. You can only see the small boat, (Ukraine) is sailing on, while missing completely the Russian ocean of terror its sailing on.

And that's an opinion not even worth considering, never mind commenting on.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979858#Comment_121979858

It's not really relevant to this thread cause there is no evidence Ukraine had anything to do with it. There's substantial evidence that ISIS did it on the other hand. If Putin had any evidence, he would be releasing it. Instead there's idiots who lap up his propaganda...

Also I feel like your mind would be blown by the kind of "terrorism" people engaged in historically during invasions… Be it during ww2 or even our own history.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979918#Comment_121979918

It isn't a morality contest though. Its a question of who has motive, means and opportunity to organise the Crocus City Hall attack. Putin can have a murderous record, and still not have any credible motive for this specific terrorist attack.

While it's clear ISIS-K claimed the attack, and must have had some connection to the shooters, its entirely possible they were acting as a proxy. The gunmen apparently expected to be paid. And its very suspect that the gunmen were fleeing to Ukraine when caught. That needs to be explained. Ukraine does have motive, means and opportunity to organise such an attack, and they have admitted carrying out terrorist attacks against civilians in the past. It's reasonable to consider they might be involved.

It is an interesting coincidence that The Times is now reporting this week that Ukraine is capitalising on the Crocus City Hall attack by running psychological operations to try to spread inter-ethnic strife in Russia between Tajiks (and Central Asians generally) and the wider Russian population.

There is an investigation ongoing, and we need to keep an open mind on things.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980000#Comment_121980000

The investigation is a sham, as anyone with an open mind would be aware.

Were they fleeing to Ukraine? According to this, the suspects were heading to Belarus… if they are indeed the culprits. Under torture they are likely to admit to anything, any evidence gathered under such measures is unsound. They would confess to anything their Russian torturers demand, including a Ukraine angle.

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/8570179/russia-attackers-eyed-belarus-torture-warning-issued/

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980000#Comment_121980000

And why do you think Russia will have a legitimate and transparent investigation? Their history of investigations into terror attacks has generally drawn criticism for being severely inadequate and often misrepresented. If they produce credible evidence and give it to the international community, then that's credible but that absolutely won't happen.

By the way, Ukraine engaging in such an attack with ISIS no less would only be damaging for Ukraine if it ever came to light and no such conspiracy tends to remain secret. Given the fact that US intel has been superb including warning Russia about the attack, when they're saying there's no evidence of Ukraine being involved, I'd tend to trust it. It's more credible than propaganda hour from Putin and his fanboys.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980034#Comment_121980034

Russia's investigation cant be any worse the Nordstream investigations, right? Russia has motivation to find who was responsible and punish them. Whereas in the NS investigation, Germany, Denmark and Sweden really don't want to conclude who was responsible.

Ukraine using an Islamic extremist group as a proxy force is extremely low risk for Ukraine. The US itself has happily worked shoulder to shoulder with Islamic extremists.

If Russia issues a finding that Ukraine financed or organised the attack NATO will just straight up ignore it, same as with the prior terrorist attacks carried out by Ukraine. I'm not exaggerating - a year ago it was this big mystery in the media as to who is shelling the Russian occupied nuclear power plant. It's very clear a lot of work is being done to dismiss the conclusions of the Russian investigation before they are even known.

Now, as I said - the investigation isn't concluded yet. Ukraine might not be involved. But it needs to be understood why they were fleeing to Ukraine. And who they expected to pay them.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979408#Comment_121979408

People are justifying the destruction of a bridge that is continually being used to carry military equipment to Crimea and where the priority for russia fixing it is purely to aid the war, sorry, "Special Operation" for yourself, effort.

You couldn't be more transparently morally bankrupt if you tried Sand, this whataboutery has taken you to new levels.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121979337#Comment_121979337

A new pretext? I guess Ukrainians=Nazis, Ukrainians=Satanists, Ukrainians=Gays,Ukrainians=anti religion, Ukrainians=biolab builders, Ukrainians=dirty bomb builders Ukrainians= brainwashed robots, Ukrainians=puppets of USA, Ukrainians=corrupt, etc etc wasn't cutting it anymore.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980286#Comment_121980286

And the murder of civillians…

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980499#Comment_121980499

And the bridge attack is a hell of a lot different to hiring ISIS to run an attack in a concert hall.... I'd put money on Russia pinning this on Ukraine and never producing evidence. Similar to all of the other claims that he's never provided evidence for.

Also for a guy so concerned about civilian deaths. You seem to show no concern for the genocide that Putin justifies on a daily basis...

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980499#Comment_121980499

YYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!! Not even worth replying to at this stage, like gramophone with its needle stuck in a goooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvveveeeee!

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980499#Comment_121980499

You mean like Russia has been doing non-stop for the past two years?

jmreire

More of Putins respect for civilians…targeting first responders.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1776278129096478945

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980000#Comment_121980000

The most ridiculous statement yet on this thread. ''There is an investigation ongoing''. Anybody who imagines any Ruzzian investigation will produce any finding that will discomfit the leadership needs their head examined. The record of Ruzzian ''investigations'' speaks to that. People who promise to find material that might embarrass the Kremlin, like Anna Politskaya and Alexai Navalny to name just two, usually have short life spans. One might as well have asked for investigations into the death of Leon Trotsky or Zinaida Reich in Moscow in 1940. I think the fact that any investigation that uses evidence gathered by mutiliating people is worthless goes without saying.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980499#Comment_121980499

by russians… (or is it a war yet?)

Keep digging, you may fix the kerch bridge yet.

brickster69

New update on the investigations.

https://twitter.com/GENGIS9999/status/1777237929254916205

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991633#Comment_121991633

And once again, posted without comment. The first hand accounts are from people who were heavily tortured so would likely say anything on camera. Russia haven't given any hard evidence including of the supposed money trail to Ukraine. Being uncritical of what you're sharing is just a bit telling. A more discerning article on it.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/04/08/crocus-attack-suspects-claim-ukraine-link-in-new-interrogation-clips-a84766

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991633#Comment_121991633

You forgot to put quotation marks around "investigations."

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992089#Comment_121992089

That's most unfair! The Russians are investigating which modes of torture will get the "suspects" to say what the Russians have told them to say.

paul71

Sand, any investigation by Russia was determined before the attack happened.

I am reminded of a wonderful line in an old movie. "Sure we have a wonderful fire brigade, sometimes they even get to a fire before it starts"

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121980000#Comment_121980000

".. fleeing to Ukraine when caught..." I must say I quite enjoy the sheer deliriously exuberant ridiculousness of this particular Russian conspiracy theory.

Leaving aside for the moment that Lukashenko was at pains to very quickly explain in considerable detail and evidence that the terrorists were on their way to Belarus and were caught by Belarusian security - lest fingers get pointed at him- one has to ask why - even assuming these terrorists were Ukrainian (or even more ridiculously were merely paid by Ukraine) - why they would want to go into the middle of a war zone and the most mined, droned, watched & dangerous location in the world right now and right through the Russian army (and driving with a "Ukrainian licence plate" no less).

Why not head to Belarus, Georgia, Armenia - or best of all Chechnya or some other Islamic part/neighbour of Russia, where there is no army, no minefields, where you are not watched and might even blend in?

Why head to Ukraine at all- are you more likely to be paid if you show up in person?

Even if you were Ukrainian, why not stay in Russia to carry out more mischief/ go to Ukraine by first going to one of the other locations?

So given the mind boggling silliness of this particular Russian "line to take", the question really is does Sand believe it?

Or just want others to believe it?

Or is the plan to "flood the pitch" with such ludicrous nonsense that people just switch off?

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994397#Comment_121994397

Of course Sand does not believe it, Sand is not stupid. He merely expects everyone he preaches to, to be stupid.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994397#Comment_121994397

It's objective reality that the gunmen fled the attack by car (they ran down a family with children while doing so) and took the main motorway out of Moscow to the Ukrainian border. There was an exit they could have taken that would have brought them on to the motorway to the Belarus border, but they ignored it and continued on the main route to the Ukrainian border.

They were intercepted and arrested after ignoring that exit to Belarus, instead continuing towards Ukraine. Now you are right that this raises a lot of questions that need to be answered about why they were heading towards Ukraine - but its not in dispute that's the route they were arrested on. Lets see what the investigation turns up.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998111#Comment_121998111

I'm very confident we'll get an answer on this. Cutting off people's ears and feeding it to them is a very well recognized interrogation technique in policing circles.

It's only surprising that it is not used more often.

Perhaps Ireland needs a referendum to expressly permit the police to do this?

I certainly know people on whom I would like to practice the technique- do you?

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998111#Comment_121998111

The investigation has already made explicit claims but not provided evidence that would be considered remotely credible. It seems like you and brickster are entirely unwilling to even question the quality of information being provided by Russian authorities to justify their claims... Instead, it's just wait for their smoking gun, similar to the claims they made about biolabs etc.

Sand

An interesting point I hadn't fully appreciated until recently, that when the US issued their warning on March 7th for the following 48 hours there was a concert on at the same venue on March 9th-10th. The concert was being held by a performer known as Shaman, a Russian performer extremely well known for his nationalist/patriotic views (he publicly offered to pay the funeral expenses of all the victims of the March 22nd attack) and his support of the Russian actions in Ukraine. So the Ukrainians hate him, and his fans. I believe there is photographic evidence of at least one of the gunmen being at the concert hall that weekend, but (unlike March 22nd) security was apparently extremely heavy for the Shaman concert. Nothing happened to that concert.

Shaman would fit into the same sort of Russian cultural figures (journalists, politicians, etc) that have been targeted in the past two years. What would be unusual is that all the prior figures were targeted by Ukraine - because they hated those cultural figures. If the Shaman concert was the initial target, it would be the odd one out in that ISIS-K would be responsible.