Breaking - Shooting and Explosion at Concert Hall in Moscow

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962392#Comment_121962392

It does not matter what you or i think. What matters is if it is true and what other states think about it if true.

Personally i think it was beyond stupid given the timing, i don't see any benefit at all to be gained from it in a political way. Might of been far better to keep his gob shut if you ask me, unless he had some sort of motive for it.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121961897#Comment_121961897

I guess I'm trying to stay balanced. I've no particular insight into the war like the poster was requesting. I could also repeat the pro Ukrainian claims too and would question anyone similarly who was pro Russia.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962375#Comment_121962375

When is a media release from the Russian foreign office not propaganda???

Given their track record of lies.

Why are you dumping Russian propaganda without context or scrutiny?

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962079#Comment_121962079

Doesn't even have to be the RU SS, the neighbours will do the same job!!! Remember that little tiff you with the neighbour over the car parking space had a good while back, The one you had forgotten about? Well, he didn't forget.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962458#Comment_121962458

Repeat the Ukrainian claims then. Oh they've certainly had their moments. EG the intercepted Russian phonecalls spring to mind. I'd be the farm they got lucky with a few in the early days, saw their propaganda value and "found" more until the value of that fell away. But overall their claims tend to stack up far more than Russian claims over time, they certainly don't run to the sometimes crazy fantasies of Russian spin and they have far fewer problems with amnesia. For a start they have far more eyes on them and far more different eyes too. It's certainly been a lot easier for journalists to move around on the Ukrainian side than on the Russian. EG when the stuff about Russia having mobile crematoria in Ukraine to get rid of bodies was doing the rounds Western journos(in particular the French) were able to dismiss this as a nonsense. The "Ghost of Kiev" was equally poo pooed very quickly.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962520#Comment_121962520

Just ignore it then, but however you look at it they are the only ones conducting the investigations so what they officially announce has to be passed on. What are you suggesting some other country does the investigation instead ?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962733#Comment_121962733

How about an answer to the question put to you - is it likely that a media release from Russia on this is likely to be anything other than propaganda?

Why are you utterly incapable of offering an opinion on the reliability of the Russian propaganda you are dumping, or engaging with the pertinent and reasonable questions put to you by multiple posters? Where is the equivalent promotion of output from sources contrary to the Russian narrative? In its absence, it appears your posts are just exercises in Russian propaganda, and the reason you don't reply is that you cannot without revealing that.

Russia are the only ones conducting an "investigation"? What does that even mean? Do you expect the US, or EU or Ireland to conduct an investigation on Russian soil? Well? So what is the point of the remark? It is nonsense.

Are you suggesting it will be a genuine investigation? Well?

Do you really think that if an internal Russian investigation discovers it was purely an ISIS-K attack, or by an internal FSB faction, or FSB turning a blind eye to an ISIS-K attack - they would disclose that? And contradict their early attempts to pin this on Ukraine? And if you don't think they would, why not say so?

However you look at it, you are dumping Russian propaganda without context or scrutiny.

Do you want a list of all the things Russia has "officially announced" that is absolute garbage and lies and entirely serving the agenda of Putin?

How about you stop treating the garbage and lies coming out of Russia as if it is worthy of any sort of respect?

Treating Russian garbage, lies and propaganda as if it should be accorded the same respect as information coming out of non gangster fascist states with free presses is not balanced. It is pro-Russia.

So how about engaging your baloney detectors and recognising that>?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962704#Comment_121962704

The ghost of Kiev and snake island are two obviously false Ukrainian claims. However, I'd prefer focus on the pro Ukrainian media.

The two most egregious false claims are

Russia running out of ammunition.

https://news.sky.com/story/russia-running-out-of-weapons-as-it-faces-staggering-numbers-of-casualties-spy-chief-says-12717702

Putin is dying.

cnocbui

I run out of food occasionally, and then I go shopping, the fact I have food after going shopping doesn't mean I hadn't run out earlier.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962862#Comment_121962862

They were running out of weapons. Or have you not been paying attention to the supplies they were getting from outside Russia?

Any attempt at treating the information as equivalent on this attack is inevitably pro Russian and serves Russian propaganda ends.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962831#Comment_121962831

You are missing one important fact on your " propaganda " tirade. That is the fact that the guy accused has already admitted to the claims on national tv. So all they are doing is repeating what he has confirmed himself.

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962453#Comment_121962453

In view of the horrors Putin has been inflicting on Ukraine, Vasyl Malyuk's statement is a very welcome bit of news, especially for Ukrainians. At least some of those responsible for the Russian Terror campaign are paying the price. The Duginas were no ordinary civilians, they were every bit as guilty as the pilots' dropping bombs and missiles on civilian targets in Ukraine. Also, it will send the msg to Putin's inner circle that they are not as secure as they may have thought! Bravo!!! Well done, Vasyl. Again please!!!

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963261#Comment_121963261

More Russian propaganda dumped without scrutiny or foundation. Always it is anti Western / Russin propaganda dumped this way.

The thread is about the theatre attacks. Multiple posters have pointed out to you the theatre attack was fundamentally different. Zero coherent explanation posted from you as to why they should be considered comparable.

Zero attempt made to answer any of the questions put to you in previous post thereby proving the case made it in.

When you are unable to answer pertinent questions about the Russian content you are referencing it is positive proof it cannot be defended and is merely Russian propaganda.

Here is a snippet of the questions you had no answer to:

Are you suggesting it will be a genuine investigation? Well?

Do you really think that if an internal Russian investigation discovers it was purely an ISIS-K attack, or by an internal FSB faction, or FSB turning a blind eye to an ISIS-K attack - they would disclose that? And contradict their early attempts to pin this on Ukraine? And if you don't think they would, why not say so?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962888#Comment_121962888

I would appreciate it if you refrained from slurring me with a pro Russia tag, thanks very much

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963393#Comment_121963393

Thats how your posts come across when they "both sides" information coming out of Russia, whether in the current conflict or this specific attack, and treat it as co-equal with information from free countries with a free press. So if you are not pro Russia I hope to see in your posts the recogniton they are a murderous, lying regime who place zero value on the lives of their own people.

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963372#Comment_121963372

Russian propaganda? Are you seriously insinuating the poster @brickster69 is a Russian spy?

engineerws

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963413#Comment_121963413

Goodnight. I've had enough. I thought it was meant to be about discussing the thread title. They place zero value on their own people? Listen to yourself. I'm finished here.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963433#Comment_121963433

I may as well ask if you are? Because there is no such claim anywhere in my posts but perhaps you can point it out.

If someone in WW2 listened to Lord Haw Haw and his Nazi propaganda and repeated it, what would that make them? Hardly a spy now?

Someone who repeats Russian propaganda without context or scrutiny doesnt have to be a Russian asset but they are serving their purposes in doing do. Hence the comment to use baloney detectors when reading any claims from Russian sources - hardly what would be said to someone you thought was an actual Russian asset now is it?

This is so obvious Im surprised it has to be explained to you.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962862#Comment_121962862

Must be why Russia's not looking to well known bastions of human rights and cheerfulness like Iran and North Korea then. Oh wait… Whatever about Iran, when I first heard them going to the dynastic tinpot craphole that is North Korea looking for shells I honestly thought that had to be made up, but no. Ever watch the Russian TV folks going to Pyongyang as part of the "ah sure we're mates y'know" tour, when even their reporters were carefully ferried around the Potemkin tourist spots, with NK handlers in attendance.

Only this week a Ukr drone took out a real oddity; a Ladoga nuclear command vehicle of which iirc a half dozen were built in the 1980's. A very clever bit of kit actually, a Soviet era converted tank to ferry top brass around in the event of a nuclear war. One was last wheeled out, for good and obvious reasons, during the Chernobyl disaster, where it acquitted itself admirably and collected important data on the crisis(missed opportunity for the conspiracy nuts to claim Russia was about to nuke Ukraine).

When a military is digging museum pieces out of mothballs it doesn't look great. Even in the early days it was pretty clear that a fair chunk of the Russian military were expected to fight with substandard kit with all sorts of vehicles pressed into service to try and keep logistics flowing when the expected short sharp shock didn't work on Ukraine. That's more like the actions of defenders than attackers. The 10 km long convoy on a single road to Kiev was an example of rushed amateur hour logistics. It also showed how Ukraine had little or no useful airforce to speak of(or much in the way of men on the ground), because if a squadron of WW2 German Stukas had somehow fallen through a time warp and saw that below them they'd have thought all their Christmases had come at once.

Imagine the Yanks decided to take over Ukraine. It would not be an easy fight like some like to claim, but air superiority would be a near given and intel overwatch would be a given. Logistics? The US military is the Amazon of war, where they drop Burger Kings into forward bases. Regardless of how it would go, do you really think they'd be going cap in hand for ammo to I dunno, Mexico, or go to the Smithsonian looking for M60 tanks to field? Yes the US still flies the B52, but that's been so updated it's like Trigger's Broom, or the ship of Theseus for the pseuds/classicists/non English speakers among us.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963433#Comment_121963433

I'd say it's more that certain posters are prone to buying the Russian line at every turn. Russia makes outlandish claim and it's viewed as true, every time they make a claim, certain posters treat it as the truth. That doesn't make them a Russian spy, it simply means that they're pretty undiscerning to the kind of manipulation that Putin engages in.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121962392#Comment_121962392

The head of the SBU admitting to planning and carrying out terrorist attacks (which is what they are) against civilians would mean the Ukrainian state is planning and carrying out terrorist attacks against civilians. Particularly if they refuse to extradite him for trial. It's pretty serious.

And it provides some context for who might have planned the recent terrorist attack in Moscow.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974976#Comment_121974976

1. They were not terrorist attacks, they were assassinations of specific targets in a time where Ukraine is at war with Russia due to an illegal Russian invasion
2. As attacks they were not remotely comparable to the concert hall attack which was intended to kill as many civilians as possible
3. Sure, Ukraine are going to extradite the head of their SBU - will it be a swap deal for all the Russian terrorists and war criminals starting with Putin??? In what universe do you think Ukraine would ever contemplate such a request from Russia for an attack claimed by ISIS-K?

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975098#Comment_121975098

They were clearcut terrorist attacks. If these civillians were valid military targets, Ukraine would have claimed responsibility instead of denying it. It's sad that people are so radicalised that they endorse the deliberate murder of civilians.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974976#Comment_121974976

It is fairly rich for Russia to accuse Ukraine of terrorism … given that basically everything Russia has done in Ukraine has been terrorism or genocide for two years. It's likely that Russia murders as many Ukrainian civilians every few days as IS-K killed in this attack.

And it's really bizarre to see people in the West, like the above, talking about how Ukraine should send their intelligence chief to Russia for "trial" without wondering if the entire Russian government should likewise be sent to Kyiv.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974976#Comment_121974976

That's a pretty big leap to assuming they were responsible for the Moscow attacks. Russia can show the evidence for their claims, would be an easy international win for them. The fact they're not gives the distinct impression that no evidence exists.

Oddly enough, people such as yourself are far less concerned that Putin has an international arrest warrant for war crimes and genocide..... We've got clear cut evidence for that....

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975148#Comment_121975148

No, just because Ukraine did not claim responsibility for them does not make them a terrorist attack. They were not terrorist attacks.

There are many reasons in war why one side may not claim responsibility for an attack, to keep the other side guessing.

So logical fail there.

After all Russia has other enemies, internal enemies, and haven't we seen many Russians falling out of windows?

It's sad that people only seem to care about dead civilians when they think they can pin it on Ukraine isn't it?

Zero concern shown for the consequences for civilians in Ukraine and Russia of how Russia is trying to pin this on Ukraine despite all the available evidence pointing to ISIS.

But I'm sure we can trust that your concern for the dead civilians here extends to wanting a proper independent investigation as to who is responsible? So that Russia cannot lie about it as an excuse to attack Ukrainian civilians?

After all, the FSB are well capable of staging such an attack as this or turning a blind eye to it if it suits their agenda. Russia is led by a terrorist and a war criminal who shows zero concern for the deaths of Russians and Russian propaganda, overseen by the state, gloats in the deliberate murder of civilians. So there's some additional context there to the attacks.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975204#Comment_121975204

I haven't said the Ukrainian state is responsible though. I don't think even the Russians have done so yet, as the investigation is still proceeding. But when the head of the Ukrainian SBU is gloating about the terrorist attacks Ukraine has previously carried out, it does provide context for the recent Moscow attack.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974976#Comment_121974976

Rather like the Ruzzians when they first attacked Ukraine? I recall they sent special forces teams to murder Zelensky,(who is a civilian) but they were intercepted and killed. Technically, as a head of state with control of the armed forces, he is a legitimate target as are Ruzzian civilians who are instrumental in governmental operations, industry supporting the war effort or in propaganda, especially criminal calls for genocide. Rather different from random civilians, including children, at a concert.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975225#Comment_121975225

So you think Putin should be on trial? Cause the international case against him is far stronger.… The rationale for going after the SBU head is propaganda against the people who who have been highly effective against the Russians.

Sand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121975219#Comment_121975219

I'm not interested in a "Is/Isn't" argument.

As for proper/independent investigation there is one being carried out already. How is the proper/independent investigation of the Nordstream bombings coming along by the way?