World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018675#Comment_122018675

It is always worrying when those defending something particularly bad such as maiming perfectly normal boys and girls for being a bit “different” - like who among us isn’t ?

It’s almost like they’re looking to recruit members to their side - and anyone not buying into it must see the light !!!

Well, we see common sense, facts, biology and the glorious expression of individuality without labels - like we used to have.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018707#Comment_122018707

The defense is not actually of the child abuse, it is the ideology that is being defended. We have seen in the past vast human suffering is tolerated 'for the good' of the ideology.

Reports will not kill an ideology. Those involved in child abuse will have to be investigated and go to trial.

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018744#Comment_122018744

I’d like to see Ruth Hunt and Nancy Kelley of Stonewall and Lauren Stoner and Susie Green of Mermaids face charges. Green especially.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018758#Comment_122018758

There will be massive resistance to that as once court cases start the floodgates will open. Like what happened with the Catholic Church abuse, it takes a huge number of facilitators for the abuse to be sustained.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018675#Comment_122018675

Since you ask a direct question, I’ll give you a direct answer - No, that’s not my position.

On your point that I have rejected the Cass review though - I haven’t rejected it so much as I simply don’t find it adds anything new or significant or interesting or important to current literature, hence why I suggest it may still provide utility for alternative purposes, as opposed to the purpose for which it is intended.

As has been alluded to by other posters however - anyone who would exhibit such a fickle change of mind, is likely an idiot, or mentally compromised in some fashion which would suggest that they will never be in a position where they are a danger to anyone other than themselves, let alone society as a whole through being in a position to influence, let alone implement policies which govern society, so best not to concern oneself with them.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018809#Comment_122018809

So after what, say, a dozen reviews that all independently confirm the same kind of outcome — you'll change your mind?

Why not adopt a more neutral compromise position given the potential danger to children — such as, "let's pause this practice until we all conclusively prove the outcome"?

It seems a bizarre position to throw the report to one side and potentially allow further abuse of children to continue.

Is that a risk worth taking, on your side of the argument?

Vote4Squirrels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018805#Comment_122018805

Well those abuses did come to light in many many court cases - not as many as there could or should have been but hopefully they will come.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018820#Comment_122018820

Respectfully, could you just spit it out please what you’re trying to get at, because I have no idea where you’re going with this line of questioning.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018744#Comment_122018744

WPATH files/Cass are the first steps in that, along with the mounting evidence of puberty blockers' negative and permanent side effects. Before you can prosecute anyone for harm you have to be able to prove that the harm exists (and, often, that there was a realistic expectation that the person charged should have known that their actions were harmful).

I happen to think that some sort of truth and reconciliation process will be more effective than prosecuting people when it comes down to it, because no matter how much I disagree with them and think they have done tremendous harm to women and children's rights, I do think that many of the true believers actually believe themselves to be helping and fighting for the good. I think they act from a misplaced and out of control sense of compassion, so education/information/forgiveness is better than prosecution, even if I personally have a small list of people I think deserve to pay for what they've done. That's easy for me to say, though. The growing cohort of detransitioners may feel differently.

You won't get all of them regardless. Some people still believe in Satanic Panic recovered memory nonsense. One of them, an academic who pushed that at the time, is now busy teaching that a baby boy who unbuttons his onesie is turning it into a dress and trying to tell his parents he's a trans girl. Not joking.

Some people just be like that.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018852#Comment_122018852

I think they act from a misplaced and out of control sense of compassion, so education/information/forgiveness is better than prosecution.

Obviously you don’t intend it to, but that is exactly the basis of conversion therapy. It’s why in spite of homosexual acts being decriminalised for decades, there still exists in modern society with all its education and information, people who believe that conversion therapy is actually effective, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

https://www.npr.org/2012/07/06/156367287/evangelicals-fight-over-therapy-to-cure-gays

And then there is this guy:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna961766

MilkyToast

The "people angry that women in prison are being locked in cells with convicted rapists are really just closeted trans" thing has already been done.

Not everything is a rerun of a historical progressive cause célèbre. Sometimes, you're just wrong.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018983#Comment_122018983

A rerun of a historical progressive cause célebre is exactly what it is though every time people come out with this kind of crap:

It seems a bizarre position to throw the report to one side and potentially allow further abuse of children to continue.

Is that a risk worth taking, on your side of the argument?

One would need to be very insecure in themselves to think “I really don’t want to be seen as supporting the abuse of women and children” by people whom it’s patently obvious, couldn’t give a shyte, and change their opinions accordingly.

take everything

Could this be the actual start of adults having the guts to actually be adult about this and not cravenly giving in to the last few years of progressive but unscientific feelings.

Not even regarding the trans debate but just generally.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019081#Comment_122019081

Nah, it’s the opposite effect, having tolerated the decades of laws and socially regressive and restrictive policies based upon pseudoscientific nonsense and feelings based upon festering prejudice and ignorance in Irish society. It’s why this part of an earlier article was particularly insightful given the Catholic Church still maintains control of every aspect of education in 90% of schools in Ireland:

The draft document attracted criticism from the Catholic Secondary School Parents Association which accused policymakers of “seeking to promote an ideology that refuses to acknowledge basic biological facts in favour of a new gender self-identity doctrine”.

The Association of Patrons and Trustees of Catholic Schools said Catholic school ethos must be accommodated to take account of the “constitutionally protected right of patrons to run their schools from a faith-based perspective”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/04/24/new-junior-cycle-curriculum-will-oblige-schools-to-teach-about-gender-identity/

In spite of the fact that it won’t be required to be taught in the 90% of schools which are owned and maintained and managed by the Catholic Church, they want to suppress it in the 10% of schools over which they have no authority or responsibility whatsoever by attempting to play the victim 😒

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019081#Comment_122019081

I'm not sure about generally, but regarding the trans issue; yes. You can tell because the only people trying to contradict the Cass Review are the most true believing of TRAs, and this time they're having to do it without the backing of the NGOs/charities that would usually support them, because those are all staying incredibly quiet compared to their usual form. That's why the TRA message is so all over the place.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018842#Comment_122018842

I'm not trying to "get at" anything, other than asking you questions to clarify your position on the matter.

It's abundantly clear that no matter how much I have tried to gather than clarification, answer there doesn't come.

I have found the same perspective with activists; speaking around the issue and dismissing any relevant evidence on a whim, rather than engaging directly with the issue itself.

tarvis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018004#Comment_122018004

A long and informative interview - very welcome and very overdue. It seems Newstalk has opted out of the MSM wide ‘no discussion allowed’ .

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019210#Comment_122019210

It subsequently became abundantly clear what you were getting at when you came out with this:

It seems a bizarre position to throw the report to one side and potentially allow further abuse of children to continue.

Is that a risk worth taking, on your side of the argument?

You’re not looking for clarification on anything, what you’re attempting to do, unsuccessfully, is based upon your own position, ascribe a position to me that I do not, and never have held.

Naturally, given your perspective, you will perceive other people who are not in alignment with your position as activists, while you speak around the issue, dismissing any relevant evidence on a whim, rather than engaging directly with the issue itself, which is exactly why I asked you to spit it out whatever you were getting at, precisely because I’d no idea where you were going with your line of questioning.

I do now, but I rather than simply doing the “I know you are but what am I” thing on it, I do not see you as an activist, nor would I ever call you an activist, and what I would call you is guaranteed to incur at the very minimum a threadban for being uncivil.

concerned_tenant

Interesting analysis here of the "citation cartel" between various organizations that seek to promote the same view on gender issues.

In other words, organizations that support WPATH and its conclusions cross-citation each other to give the impression that they were legitimate views to present to healthcare professionals.

In other words, it's like a Ponzi scheme for research purposes to promote one agenda above all else.

Through circular referencing, authoritative medical bodies misled the public by manufacturing a consensus on ‘gender-affirming care.’

https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1779549266676981849

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019552#Comment_122019552

In other words, it's like a Ponzi scheme for research purposes to promote one agenda above all else.

You cannot possibly have missed the fcuking irony:

Below, journalist Christina Buttons (who, for full disclosure, I am in a relationship with) dives deeper into the newly discovered citation cartel in gender medicine, providing her own analysis.

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/gender-medicines-citation-cartel

I disagree with her assessment though, it’s how the peer review process, citations and references functions. Naturally, given her perspective, based upon her prior positions, she is bound to characterise academic works and publications not intended for the general public, as an attempt to mislead the general public. At least she’s got some discernible principles though, unlike her former employers:

There is a critical distinction between speaking truth and being tactless, between sticking to the facts and sticking it to the libs.

https://www.realityslaststand.com/p/why-im-leaving-the-daily-wire

hotmail.com

The report seems to confirm that this new group of people who are presenting with gender issues are talking rubbish.

I think we all knew this.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019785#Comment_122019785

I don't think it's fair to say the majority of people presenting with gender dysphoria are talking rubbish. I think the massive increase in young people presenting with troubles at gender clinics or at GPs wanting puberty blockers or cross sex hormones really are suffering. From various things, and in the case of young women in particular, I think they're often basically suffering from the unpleasantness of being a young female in a massively sexualised society.

One thing I don't think is causing this increase is that transgender people were "always there" but just didn't dare to come out.

I do think there's an effect of social contagion (where have all the anorexics gone?) and I do think they're being exploited by people with other agendas.

And I suppose there are some, a few, who are just attention seeking, but I suspect they'll be more "non binary" or some of the other Ze/Hir or whatever invented stuff.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019823#Comment_122019823

For girls presenting with these issues, the report seems to confirm that it's a phase and maybe this cycle will last 10 years or so and then die out when the new fad comes out.

ceadaoin.

Good article here delving in to some of the possible reasons why so many girls are trying to "opt out" of womanhood. There certainly are some parallels with anorexia. The difference being we don't generally agree that teenage anorexics need to lose more weight and facilitate that with medication and surgery

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c7cc515f-001f-4ab4-bee1-67872a6b8667?shareToken=f15a86047ec311ddbc801e8ca205873f

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019834#Comment_122019834

Right. But would you say that anorexics were just talking rubbish? It seems obvious to me that the girls displaying these issues are genuinely in distress.

The question is how to respond adequately to their distress - and blocking their puberty, while it may seem like a successful treatment - because it reduces the unwanted sexual attention they're getting from males - is not solving the problem.

And yes, going through puberty, and out the other side, does cure the problem in the majority of cases. Another reason why puberty blockers are the wrong answer to genuine distress.

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019861#Comment_122019861

Well rubbish in the sense that they don't have gender issues. They are not trans.

They have something else. Anxiety, mental health issues or else they are just odd balls.

I personally thought most are a mixture of odd ball people and stupid. The parents are the same.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122018589#Comment_122018589

https://twitter.com/PeterTatchell/status/1779171198783381576

That's hilarious.

Tatchell is one of those people who believes it's possible for humans to literally change sex.

…and he's got a phesasant to prove it

https://twitter.com/PeterTatchell/status/1777265183548645412

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122019823#Comment_122019823

One thing I don't think is causing this increase is that transgender people were "always there" but just didn't dare to come out.

…

I do think there's an effect of social contagion (where have all the anorexics gone?) and I do think they're being exploited by people with other agendas.

They’ve not ‘gone’ anywhere volchista? Among teenagers their numbers have more than doubled in the last few years among the US population:

Eating disorder-related health visits — which include hospital stays, pediatrician visits, telehealth talk therapy, and everything in between — more than doubled among people younger than 17 in the past five years, according to a recent report from the data company Trilliant Health. From 2018 through mid-2022, visits among this age group  jumped 107.4% across all eating disorders, from around 50,000 visits at the beginning of 2018 to more than 100,000 in 2022. Visits related to anorexia nervosa, which has the highest death rate of any mental illness, jumped 129.26%. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna80745


They too face long waiting lists for treatment in the UK:

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/young-people-with-eating-disorders-on-the-rise-amid-worrying-wait-for-treatment-analysis-shows-12931298

And the same Professor O’ Shea who is so concerned about this topic, has also been tackling obesity for decades (his background in endocrinology does help!):

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/doctors-warned-to-stop-telling-obese-patients-eat-less-move-more-is-their-treatment/a1838111061.html

Tbh the comparisons to anorexia and schizophrenia or an infinite number of mental disorders really, really don’t further anyone’s argument. I won’t say they have an agenda because that implies that there is some thought put into their argument, and not just whatever forms in their minds that makes sense only to themselves.

The comparisons aren’t helpful, as there are far more differences between the conditions and their effects, than there are similarities. I’m not going to claim you personally don’t understand them, when I know you absolutely do given your own background in medicine, but when people see you making the claims and comparisons, it’s why they imagine there must be something to be said for them, when in reality, there just isn’t.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020055#Comment_122020055

It's embarrassing at this stage.

At one point, the LGBT community was respected — around the time of the gay marriage referendum.

At some point since that moment, a tiny minority of ideological extremists have dragged the community through the mud for their own purposes — increasing the risk of hatred and violence against gay people and others.

What has happened with the WPATH files has only fuelled this hatred.

The only way to stop this hatred is to stop lying to people about what's actually going on. It's causing unnecessary harm to too many people — gay people, women, children, and even trans people who want nothing to do with the extreme element that speaks in their name.

For God's sake let the moderates get back to being the voice of reason. This has gone too far.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122020160#Comment_122020160

At one point, the LGBT community was respected…

No it wasn’t? That’s why it exists 🤨

It’s why the few headballs formed the LGB Alliance, because they felt they weren’t being given the respect they felt they were owed. I mean, they were right in the sense that they weren’t given any respect, but that was because of their opinions, not because of their sexual orientation.